• Welcome to ZD Forums! You must create an account and log in to see and participate in the Shoutbox chat on this main index page.

Spoiler Totk Dragon Ending Theory

Daku Rinku

Dampe’s Acolyte
ZD Champion
Joined
Jun 1, 2023
Location
Ashai’s Classroom
Gender
Male
For the majority of the audience seeming to think it was obvious, I think it's more putting an end to the nay-saying.


I don't think recall, even so amped up, changes the past. It only returns something to a previous state, in the current time-frame. Plus, it's also stated, in game, to require memories.
Query, since you know the lore, if Sonia and Rauru reset Zelda and Link to pre-Totk stuff, how was that isolated? How did it not reset everything? I have never seen in Zelds where time travel vsn be generated over a field on to one or two persons and leave the planet or world untouched.

Am I forgetting something about Zelda time travel?
 

Mikey the Moblin

if I had a nickel for every time I ran out of spac
Joined
Aug 31, 2014
Location
southworst united states
Gender
Dude
For the majority of the audience seeming to think it was obvious, I think it's more putting an end to the nay-saying.
The real issue with it has always been the emphasis the story places on that transformation being irreversible. If there was a side quest to unlock a true ending where you learn there is a way to save zelda that would be one thing, but it happens literally non sequitur
 

Daku Rinku

Dampe’s Acolyte
ZD Champion
Joined
Jun 1, 2023
Location
Ashai’s Classroom
Gender
Male
The real issue with it has always been the emphasis the story places on that transformation being irreversible. If there was a side quest to unlock a true ending where you learn there is a way to save zelda that would be one thing, but it happens literally non sequitur
That is a fair critique. Perhaps side quest had you go back in time to stop her from eating The Secret Stone.
 

Bowsette Plus-Ultra

wah
ZD Legend
Joined
Mar 23, 2013
Location
Iowa
Gender
Lizard
For the majority of the audience seeming to think it was obvious, I think it's more putting an end to the nay-saying.
If it's the sort of conclusion that has to be confirmed by outside material after the game doesn't offer an explanation (and after saying multiple times that it's a one way transformation) then it's bad writing.

Why weren't they using super duper recall the whole time if it was so effortless to turn people back from dragons? Why emphasize how much of a one way street that transformation is if it's immediately and effortlessly undone at the end of the game? It's not a dramatic reveal or buildup, Zelda is back to normal.

Imagine if Baldur's Gate 3 just didn't explain how your characters can survive mindflayer tadpoles in wriggling around in their brains. Imagine if this thing, which is often mentioned as being a one way ordeal once the tadpole starts munching on gray matter, was just undone with no explanation in game.

It'd suck.
 
Last edited:

Azure Sage

Join your hands...
Staff member
ZD Legend
Comm. Coordinator
Query, since you know the lore, if Sonia and Rauru reset Zelda and Link to pre-Totk stuff, how was that isolated? How did it not reset everything? I have never seen in Zelds where time travel vsn be generated over a field on to one or two persons and leave the planet or world untouched.

Am I forgetting something about Zelda time travel?
It's not time travel. Recall moves a thing through time. Time itself at large does not rewind.

I have never seen in Zelds where time travel vsn be generated over a field on to one or two persons and leave the planet or world untouched
Skyward Sword timeshift stones did exactly what you're describing btw.
 

Azure Sage

Join your hands...
Staff member
ZD Legend
Comm. Coordinator
But Link and Zelda are not objects. So was it a gamble to try?
There was never anything that said it can only be done on objects. Sonia said "object" because the example she was using was a fallen teacup. They were trying to help Zelda learn how to apply the same logic to herself so she could go back to her time in that way, though they were unsuccessful, hence why Zelda had to eat the forbidden fuit gummy.
 
Joined
Oct 10, 2017
Query, since you know the lore, if Sonia and Rauru reset Zelda and Link to pre-Totk stuff, how was that isolated? How did it not reset everything? I have never seen in Zelds where time travel vsn be generated over a field on to one or two persons and leave the planet or world untouched.

Am I forgetting something about Zelda time travel?
Azure Sage hits the nail on the head:
It's not time travel. Recall moves a thing through time. Time itself at large does not rewind.


Skyward Sword timeshift stones did exactly what you're describing btw.
Additionally, there are many times throughout the series, where individuals are aware of a change to the past, indicating that the time alteration is far more localized, and the entire line of causality is not changed.

Honestly, I have found evidence for different types of time travel, through the series. The main three in pop culture being multiverse (or string theory), predetermination, and dynamic. I have another theory I can dig up, if you want a discussion on where those are found in the series. Far more prevalent throughout the series, are what I have dubbed time echoes. Put as simply as I have figured out, Information from one time-frame is copped to another, then the later one is updated to reflect any changes. It's easiest to see with the Time Shift Stones; where the past is copped over the present, and any changes only effect the present.

Recall, in TotK, follows the same rules. The teacup falls, then it's past state is recalled, then the present of the teacup is updated to put it back where it started. The teacup still fell, and the memory of it falling is still intact. When Zelda is recalled, she was still a dragon. Nothing about the past was actually changed, only the present.

But Link and Zelda are not objects. So was it a gamble to try?

From the perspective of causality, and every level of physics I can think of, atoms are atoms. One complex grouping of materials is not made different from another because one is considered to be alive.

That said, it does fit Rauru's personality to perform such a gamble as boosting Link's recall to try saving Zelda. Though, there is really no gamble, as there is no negative downside to failure.

The real issue with it has always been the emphasis the story places on that transformation being irreversible. If there was a side quest to unlock a true ending where you learn there is a way to save zelda that would be one thing, but it happens literally non sequitur
You will get no argument from me against the idea that there should have been more story with recalling Zelda from being a dragon. There should have absolutely been more, in my opinion.

That said, there were story elements to support the empowered recall, at the end. After all, we know that when a teacup falls (without getting caught), there is no getting it back either. Using recall relies on the memories of what is being recalled, and collecting Zelda's memories is a big issue, in this game. We are shown that individuals can combine powers to boost another's power. Then there's the visual elements of the empowered recall. (This is just off the top of my head, so there may be more story elements.)

The story about the irrevocability of going through draconification highlights Zelda's willingness to sacrifice her self. But, we still have story to connect the ending.

If it's the sort of conclusion that has to be confirmed by outside material after the game doesn't offer an explanation (and after saying multiple times that it's a one way transformation) then it's bad writing.

Why weren't they using super duper recall the whole time if it was so effortless to turn people back from dragons? Why emphasize how much of a one way street that transformation is if it's immediately and effortlessly undone at the end of the game? It's not a dramatic reveal or buildup, Zelda is back to normal.

This supposes quite a bit.

The conclusion that Zelda was recalled at the end was settled on by many, if not the majority. To many of us, the outside material is just stating the obvious.

If the writing is not something you like, it's not "bad." You just don't like it. It's fine if you don't like it. To state that something is categorically bad, requires more than saying that you don't get it.

We also know that Zelda didn't actually want to become a dragon. She did it as a sacrifice. We don't know the motivations of the other dragons. We don't even know if recalling the other dragons would be a good thing.

We also don't know if there is a limit for using the amped up recall. Did the ghosts still draw from their stones? Could they only manifest their power for a limited time? We don't know the in depth cost of what it really took. We are shown that the stones are not as limitless as the Triforce, and even that had limits that kept it from being spammed. We see two ghosts joining Link to cast a joined recall, before passing on. That doesn't seem easily repeatable.

I do agree that there should have been more story leading up to the ending, but there was story leading up to it.
 

Mikey the Moblin

if I had a nickel for every time I ran out of spac
Joined
Aug 31, 2014
Location
southworst united states
Gender
Dude
After all, we know that when a teacup falls (without getting caught), there is no getting it back either
There's an entire Japanese art style that disagrees with you, not a real argument

And if collecting zeldas memories is a big deal, why is it entirely optional? Why is saving zelda from becoming a dragon not tied to recovering her memories?
 
Joined
Oct 10, 2017
There's an entire Japanese art style that disagrees with you, not a real argument

And if collecting zeldas memories is a big deal, why is it entirely optional? Why is saving zelda from becoming a dragon not tied to recovering her memories?
Actually, the art of Kintsugi works into my point. While a broken cup, mended back together, shows the history of the break, a recalled cup would not show that history, despite the break still have happened.

To be fair, much like BotW, the majority of the game is optional. Link's memories of her are not the only ones at play.
 

Bowsette Plus-Ultra

wah
ZD Legend
Joined
Mar 23, 2013
Location
Iowa
Gender
Lizard
This supposes quite a bit.

The conclusion that Zelda was recalled at the end was settled on by many, if not the majority. To many of us, the outside material is just stating the obvious.

If the writing is not something you like, it's not "bad." You just don't like it. It's fine if you don't like it. To state that something is categorically bad, requires more than saying that you don't get it.

We also know that Zelda didn't actually want to become a dragon. She did it as a sacrifice. We don't know the motivations of the other dragons. We don't even know if recalling the other dragons would be a good thing.

We also don't know if there is a limit for using the amped up recall. Did the ghosts still draw from their stones? Could they only manifest their power for a limited time? We don't know the in depth cost of what it really took. We are shown that the stones are not as limitless as the Triforce, and even that had limits that kept it from being spammed. We see two ghosts joining Link to cast a joined recall, before passing on. That doesn't seem easily repeatable.

I do agree that there should have been more story leading up to the ending, but there was story leading up to it.
It supposes nothing. The resolution supposes a great deal.

Lemme emphasize the direct comparison I've been using a lot. I've brought up Baldur's Gate 3 a lot when talking about this particular story beat.

1726341870245.png

The Mindflayer tadpole is one of the earliest and longstanding plot points introduced in Baldur's Gate 3. It's the main method by which the (mostly) evil species of starfaring tentacles monsters known as the Mindflayers reproduce. They capture you, force one through your eye socket, and let it eat your brain. If the process has begun at all then it's regarded by the wider D&D world as irreversible, because it's eating your brain and then consuming your biomass to become a Mindflayer.

Like in Tears of the Kingdom, multiple characters we meet outright state that we should be dead and transformed by the time we meet them. An archmage, an arch druid, multiple healers, and a soldier whose species has dedicated itself to the extermination of mindflayers all tell us outright that this change should have taken days ago. We should have been quivering messes within hours of the thing being injected, but we aren't. Something is stopping this previously unstoppable transformation from taking place. It's the core mystery of the game's first act, but the reveal becomes a key narrative element across the rest of the game.

But now imagine if that mystery was never resolved. At the end of the game the tadpoles just plop out our heads without so much as a reaction from the player, only for it to be revealed in the 2024 D&D player's handbook that it was because the god of toilet paper reached down and plucked them from our brains.

That would suck. It is not the player's job to write the game for them. A key plot point in your game should never be left so unexplained and unresolved that the players have to write ****ing fanfiction to explain why it happened, and it especially shouldn't be left unresolved so that it can be explained in a source book or interview.

TotK doesn't build up to the idea of a cure, it builds up the opposite. We see through flashbacks of conversations that the dragon transformation is said to be a permanent thing. Characters with established expertise on the subject tell us it's a one way street, with the flashback plot culminating in said transformation. Not only is there is zero buildup to a reversion, but some of the characters who tell us it's a one way street just show up at the end to change Zelda back without explanation.
 
Last edited:

Users who are viewing this thread

Top Bottom