Timeline Discussion

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

I go by the Triforce Wish theory myself that states that the DT is the original timeline, and that Link wishing to undo Ganon's evil at the end of ALttP echoes to the past; the Triforce even says the stronger you wish, the stronger the expression of that wish. Someone with a heroic heart like Link would naturally wish very strongly. As a result the defeat of the HoT is undone, and then when he's sent back in time by Zelda, the CT is created where he undoes all of Ganon's evil in OoT by helping the Royal Family bring him to justice.

I've seen this theory before, that the original timeline is the Downfall Timeline, but every attempt to make it work fell short. This one is actually half decent. Idk if I subscribe to it though. Have you ever gone in depth in a thread?

 

[Moblinking5000]

I've seen this theory before, that the original timeline is the Downfall Timeline, but every attempt to make it work fell short. This one is actually half decent. Idk if I subscribe to it though. Have you ever gone in depth in a thread?

No, but that might be a good idea.

 

[GZ Zelda]

I go by the Triforce Wish theory myself that states that the DT is the original timeline, and that Link wishing to undo Ganon's evil at the end of ALttP echoes to the past; the Triforce even says the stronger you wish, the stronger the expression of that wish. Someone with a heroic heart like Link would naturally wish very strongly. As a result the defeat of the HoT is undone, and then when he's sent back in time by Zelda, the CT is created where he undoes all of Ganon's evil in OoT by helping the Royal Family bring him to justice.

I agree with the Triforce Wish Theory, and I agree this reverses the death of the Hero of Time that led to the DT originally, but I think we disagree about what actually gets undone. The Civil War doesn't get undone, because then there is no Hero of Time to begin with, meaning that none of the timelines exist. The events of OOT get undone only until the point of Link and Zelda's dream.

This leads to my broader point: There is no way that Link being sent back in time could ever possibly undo Ganon's evil in OOT. OOT is inevitable in all three timelines.

Why does Zelda telling the Royal Family that Ganondorf is a bad guy because she had a prophetic dream not convince the king, her father, that Ganondorf is, in fact, a bad guy, but some random time-traveler Kokiri-kid coming from the future does convince the king and actually leads to the overwriting of OOT, an entire second Civil War and a failed execution? Link is not convincing enough. That one conversation depicted at the end of Ocarina of Time could not possibly lead to the king changing his mind.

There is no way that Link going back in time to tell the king that Ganondorf is evil would ever, EVER, convince the king. He won't even listen to his own daughter who has very specifically laid-out that Ganondorf is evil by her prophetic dream, something that Zelda's across the ages are known to be able to do, as they are of the Goddess's bloodline. And Impa, an essentially all-knowing Sheikah, agrees with Zelda and presumably also supports Zelda in convincing the king, yet he still believes Ganondorf to be an envoy of peace. There is no way that Link being sent back to talk to the king would convince the king to execute Ganon. Thus, Ganon's evil in Ocarina of Time still occurs in the Child Timeline, just as it does in the adult. This means that the Era Without a Hero also occurs in the Child Timeline. We just don't see it, because the Hero of Time is in Termina when Ganon is taking over Hyrule and the Sacred Realm.

 

[GZ Zelda]

Of course not, it's a little plot hole.

However, about Vaati, I like to pretend he never actually died in Minish Cap, just like Hyrule Historia says. He only was thought to be dead.
And about Ganon, in my fiction, he can come back to life only in the timeline where he got the Triforce and wished to be immortal.
I personally like the story better this way.

My personal theory about Vaati is that the Interloper War and the sealing of the Triforce takes place after Minish Cap, and during that war, Vaati is resurrected by the Interlopers. I also think that Ganon resurrects so often (by my count 6 times in the official timeline, 9 in my timeline, but my timeline is linear and only has one Ganondorf) because the curse of Demise.

 

[leroiducouscous]

I go by the Triforce Wish theory myself that states that the DT is the original timeline, and that Link wishing to undo Ganon's evil at the end of ALttP echoes to the past; the Triforce even says the stronger you wish, the stronger the expression of that wish. Someone with a heroic heart like Link would naturally wish very strongly. As a result the defeat of the HoT is undone, and then when he's sent back in time by Zelda, the CT is created where he undoes all of Ganon's evil in OoT by helping the Royal Family bring him to justice.

I've never thought about that !
That could make a good story !

 

[Moblinking5000]

I agree with the Triforce Wish Theory, and I agree this reverses the death of the Hero of Time that led to the DT originally, but I think we disagree about what actually gets undone. The Civil War doesn't get undone, because then there is no Hero of Time to begin with, meaning that none of the timelines exist. The events of OOT get undone only until the point of Link and Zelda's dream.

I didn't say the Civil War got undone. That was another user.

Why does Zelda telling the Royal Family that Ganondorf is a bad guy because she had a prophetic dream not convince the king, her father, that Ganondorf is, in fact, a bad guy, but some random time-traveler Kokiri-kid coming from the future does convince the king and actually leads to the overwriting of OOT, an entire second Civil War and a failed execution? Link is not convincing enough. That one conversation depicted at the end of Ocarina of Time could not possibly lead to the king changing his mind.

There is no way that Link going back in time to tell the king that Ganondorf is evil would ever, EVER, convince the king. He won't even listen to his own daughter who has very specifically laid-out that Ganondorf is evil by her prophetic dream, something that Zelda's across the ages are known to be able to do, as they are of the Goddess's bloodline. And Impa, an essentially all-knowing Sheikah, agrees with Zelda and presumably also supports Zelda in convincing the king, yet he still believes Ganondorf to be an envoy of peace. There is no way that Link being sent back to talk to the king would convince the king to execute Ganon. Thus, Ganon's evil in Ocarina of Time still occurs in the Child Timeline, just as it does in the adult. This means that the Era Without a Hero also occurs in the Child Timeline. We just don't see it, because the Hero of Time is in Termina when Ganon is taking over Hyrule and the Sacred Realm.

If you look at Link's hand in the final scene of OoT, he has the ToC. Pretty sure that would go a long way in convincing the king. There's also the fact that the Great Deku Tree is dead(albeit he comes back as the sprout later on), so the king can examine that for further evidence. He also knows about the Ocarina of Time and Zelda's Lullaby which is explicitly called the song of the Royal Family, which would be strange if some clueless kid knew it, especially since Impa said that only members of the Royal Family can learn it, among other things that Link knows.

 

[Mangrove]

I go by the Triforce Wish theory myself that states that the DT is the original timeline, and that Link wishing to undo Ganon's evil at the end of ALttP echoes to the past; the Triforce even says the stronger you wish, the stronger the expression of that wish. Someone with a heroic heart like Link would naturally wish very strongly. As a result the defeat of the HoT is undone, and then when he's sent back in time by Zelda, the CT is created where he undoes all of Ganon's evil in OoT by helping the Royal Family bring him to justice.

I saw that wish only undoing Ganon's evil in terms of the timespan of the events of ALttP (bringing back his uncle, the King, etc) since Ganon's evil still continues later down the Downfall timeline (getting revived by his minions, who would've been led by Ganon's evil before). If it was for a change as far back as OoT, it would create a timeline split, but then nothing would be changed for ALttP's events (uncle wouldn't be revived since all the change would come in for another timeline).

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

I agree with the Triforce Wish Theory, and I agree this reverses the death of the Hero of Time that led to the DT originally, but I think we disagree about what actually gets undone. The Civil War doesn't get undone, because then there is no Hero of Time to begin with, meaning that none of the timelines exist. The events of OOT get undone only until the point of Link and Zelda's dream.

This leads to my broader point: There is no way that Link being sent back in time could ever possibly undo Ganon's evil in OOT. OOT is inevitable in all three timelines.

Why does Zelda telling the Royal Family that Ganondorf is a bad guy because she had a prophetic dream not convince the king, her father, that Ganondorf is, in fact, a bad guy, but some random time-traveler Kokiri-kid coming from the future does convince the king and actually leads to the overwriting of OOT, an entire second Civil War and a failed execution? Link is not convincing enough. That one conversation depicted at the end of Ocarina of Time could not possibly lead to the king changing his mind.

There is no way that Link going back in time to tell the king that Ganondorf is evil would ever, EVER, convince the king. He won't even listen to his own daughter who has very specifically laid-out that Ganondorf is evil by her prophetic dream, something that Zelda's across the ages are known to be able to do, as they are of the Goddess's bloodline. And Impa, an essentially all-knowing Sheikah, agrees with Zelda and presumably also supports Zelda in convincing the king, yet he still believes Ganondorf to be an envoy of peace. There is no way that Link being sent back to talk to the king would convince the king to execute Ganon. Thus, Ganon's evil in Ocarina of Time still occurs in the Child Timeline, just as it does in the adult. This means that the Era Without a Hero also occurs in the Child Timeline. We just don't see it, because the Hero of Time is in Termina when Ganon is taking over Hyrule and the Sacred Realm.

We know he didn't take over the Sacred Realm on the Child Timeline though, he was arrested and sent to be executed at the Aribter's Grounds. I also feel as if OoT and its struggle for the Triforce is an inevitable event, and it does happen on the Child Timeline, it just occurs differently. The Hero of Time escapes the burden of taking on Ganondorf, so instead it falls onto the shoulders of Twilight Princess Link. TP is history's attempt to correct the alteration that the Hero of Time made: Ganondorf recieves the Triforce of Power divinely and the other pieces are divinely distributed as well, leading to a showdown with Ganondorf for control over the power of the gods.

 

[Moblinking5000]

I saw that wish only undoing Ganon's evil in terms of the timespan of the events of ALttP (bringing back his uncle, the King, etc) since Ganon's evil still continues later down the Downfall timeline (getting revived by his minions, who would've been led by Ganon's evil before). If it was for a change as far back as OoT, it would create a timeline split, but then nothing would be changed for ALttP's events (uncle wouldn't be revived since all the change would come in for another timeline).

Uncle and the king would be revived, as that doesn't cause a paradox. Ganon winning does cause a paradox if that's changed though since him winning leads to ALttP, hence the creation of the AT(and subsequently, the CT).

 

[Mangrove]

Uncle and the king would be revived, as that doesn't cause a paradox. Ganon winning does cause a paradox if that's changed though since him winning leads to ALttP, hence the creation of the AT(and subsequently, the CT).

Exactly, so the wish was aimed at ALttP's events (reversing the uncle and king's death) rather than events farther back, otherwise the king and uncle wouldn't have been revived in ALttP's timeline. Unless Link aimed his wish at both the past and present, but not future?

 

[Moblinking5000]

Exactly, so the wish was aimed at ALttP's events (reversing the uncle and king's death) rather than events farther back, otherwise the king and uncle wouldn't have been revived in ALttP's timeline. Unless Link aimed his wish at both the past and present, but not future?

You can't undo or turn back evil that has yet to happen, as it has not, well, happened. That would be prevention, not undoing. This also explains how Ganon comes back atleast once afterward on all three timelines. We know that Link couldn't have wished for Ganon to have never existed, otherwise, he wouldn't come back on the DT, either.

The events of ALttP requires Ganon to win in the Era of the Hero of Time. By undoing Ganon's victory, ALttP does not happen if the timeline remains linear, which means the wish that Link makes on the Triforce doesn't happen. The only way for the Triforce to resolve this paradox while making this wish come true is to create a new timeline where Ganon's evil ceases to be, which then leads to a timeline where it's stopped in the first place. Since resurrecting Uncle and the king wouldn't create a paradox where the Triforce wish never happened, the Triforce does so without the need to create another split.

 

[Mangrove]

You can't undo or turn back evil that has yet to happen, as it has not, well, happened. That would be prevention, not undoing. This also explains how Ganon comes back atleast once afterward on all three timelines. We know that Link couldn't have wished for Ganon to have never existed, otherwise, he wouldn't come back on the DT, either.

The events of ALttP requires Ganon to win in the Era of the Hero of Time. By undoing Ganon's victory, ALttP does not happen if the timeline remains linear, which means the wish that Link makes on the Triforce doesn't happen. The only way for the Triforce to resolve this paradox while making this wish come true is to create a new timeline where Ganon's evil ceases to be, which then leads to a timeline where it's stopped in the first place. Since resurrecting Uncle and the king wouldn't create a paradox where the Triforce wish never happened, the Triforce does so without the need to create another split.

If the uncle and king are revived, it means Link wished for Ganon's evil to be undone from the events of ALttP. Why would Link wish to undo Ganon's victory in the far past? There's two different points in time where Link's wish "undos" Ganon's evil for Triforce Wish theory to explain the Downfall split, which is why it doesn't work for me. The fact that the wish doesn't help Link in the future makes me lean hard to the wish only affecting the events of ALttP and no other time period. There still isn't anything to imply that a previous hero was defeated by Ganon in ALttP either. I think the Downfall split will probably just stay as a shoddy "fix" for me, honestly.

EDIT: I found this piece of dialogue that a maiden states in the English version of ALttP:
"If the evil one destroys the Hero, nothing can save the world from his wicked reign. Only a member of the Knights of Hyrule, who protected the Hylian royalty, can become the Hero... You are of their bloodline, aren't you? Then you must rescue Zelda without fail!"
Maybe the Hero was destroyed in OoT, and Ganon reigned for like a minute until the sages sealed him? But his reign came back afterwards, leading to ALttP (with Aganhim being in Hyrule Castle and swaying the Royal Family's decisions or something). Or, this might even confirm that there was no hero in the past to stop Ganon, otherwise Ganon's 'wicked reign' wouldn't have been stopped by the time of ALttP. But, it's probably just a dramatic line (like the Master Sword being put to rest "forever", when it's back in ALBW, or ALBW's backstory paintings saying that the Triforce was separated "forever", until it's back...in ALBW). Either way, the quote doesn't really help since in context, it's most likely referring to ALttP Link failing, and why he should try to avoid getting destroyed (no pressure).

 

[Moblinking5000]

If the uncle and king are revived, it means Link wished for Ganon's evil to be undone from the events of ALttP.

I mean, the events of ALttP are included in that wish, for sure. That doesn't that's ALL that's included.

Why would Link wish to undo Ganon's victory in the far past?

Why would it only extend to this particular era is a better question, IMO.

There still isn't anything to imply that a previous hero was defeated by Ganon in ALttP either.

I mean:

1. There doesn't need to be when the timeline tells us that there was indeed a hero defeated by Ganon.

2. Of course not, ALttP was made in 1991, OoT was made in 1998, and the timeline wasn't revealed to us until 2011.

 

[Mangrove]

I mean, the events of ALttP are included in that wish, for sure. That doesn't that's ALL that's included.

Why would it only extend to this particular era is a better question, IMO.

I mean:

1. There doesn't need to be when the timeline tells us that there was indeed a hero defeated by Ganon.

2. Of course not, ALttP was made in 1991, OoT was made in 1998, and the timeline wasn't revealed to us until 2011.

Link wishing for the undoing of evil before his time, to where they don't even affect his era but another timeline (in addition to undoing evil for his era), doesn't make as much sense as the wish just affecting his era to me. Also, the past era he affected led to another timeline split where Ganon's evil was halted 7 years further back, so why didn't the Triforce just do that point in time instead? Because the Triforce works in mysterious ways? It's just overly complicated. At least Zelda gives us reason to teleport us to the past of a different timeline in OoT.

And yes, I know the offiicial timeline is official, but it doesn't make the Downfall split less nonsensical to me. TP doesn't have to imply that the Hero's Shade regretted not being remembered as a hero when HH tells us he indeed did. I don't know your thoughts on the canonocity of ZE beyond the timeline that's also in the Japanese site, but there's plenty of stuff in there that the games don't imply themselves either (Termina indeed being a dream world?). But, ZE's makers were the same as HH's, just with the absence of Aonuma's supervision (which may make a huge difference depending on who you ask). It may be official, but it doesn't sit too well with what I got from the game myself.

 

[Mangrove]

I also want to throw in my headfanon time. I'm not the first to make it, as it's practically darklink01's/Voo_Bopo's/talonmalon333's/mαrkαsscoρ's Mixed/Balanced Split Timeline.

Adult: SS - OoT - WW/PH - ST - TMC - FS - FSA - TFH
Child: SS - OoT/MM - TP - ALttP/OoX/LA - ALBW - TLoZ/TAoL - BotW

- TMC takes place after the Great Deku Tree's plan to connect the islands is fulfilled and the rest of the FSS follows (the ancient language from WW's intro also appears to have a resurgence in the Ocean King's world and in New Hyrule, so it continues in the FSS)
- Force Gems from PH and ST continue in TMC (light force) and FSA; Triforce is never mentioned
- WW's Ganon is Triforce wished away, so he can't resurrect. FSA's Ganon is more Demise's hatred.
- TP Ganondorf is resurrected between TP and ALttP, similar to how he comes back between ALttP and ALBW or before, TLoZ
- The OoX games can be moved between ALBW and TLoZ as well, but I prefer OoX Link as being the same as ALttP and LA Link and that this same Link is Gramps in ALBW. The Master Sword that Gramps has can be the one from OoX, and ALBW's backstory can be another adventure of ALttP Link after LA (where Ganon comes back but is sealed instead of killed).

- TFH is on the Adult line for the 4th Purple Link and Linebeck reference, but it uses ALBW's language, so maybe it just coincidentally happens to be the same after a long time after FSA? The Fierce Deity is referenced too so that line can have its own Termina. I don't really care much for its placement.

Keeping the Four Sword solely after the Master Sword's drowning streamlines the timeline since we don't have to switch around which magic sword to use, IMO. Also, with the hero of man (previous hero) shown to not wear a cap, and with TMC Link getting a cap, it was implied to be the first time where a hero started the hat tradition. Then Skyward Sword ruined that idea. But, in ST, the soldiers wear the traditional green tunic, no cap. Link from TMC can be seen as following that trend.

Also, I like that it's almost balanced. I find it more aesthetically pleasing then many ECT or EAT theories where one side has significantly more than the other.

I didn't think there would be much of a difference if the FSS happened in New Hyrule, but then I remembered that the Gorons seemed to be in an early state of development in TMC when they had a village in ST already. Maybe New Hyrule is this line's version of Greater Hyrule or something. Other races like Gerudo could have just gone to new lands (like in OoX) or lived on boats (like the Gorons in WW) so that's my cop-out for other races coming back as well. I don't think this is strong evidence, but FSA's map art shows Hyrule depicted as one of a couple islands (probably from WW influence as it was the game released before this one). I'm also headfanoning that FS's map fits on this map, but both of these are honestly oddballs. Geography and Zelda theories don't go that good together.

So what do you guys think? It was already posted here by mαrkαsscoρ, but I wanted to throw in all my other thoughts/reasoning.