Three-Branched Timeline Split Explanations

[The Doctor]

imo, no. I was talking specific story elements, more specifically to those at the Spirit Temple that have to do with Link's encounters with Nabooru.

edit: Guru-guru only teaches you a song that you played to him "before" which you then go back and play "again." It creates a paradox that follows the Terminator model: what happens only happens once, any time travel doesn't change what has already happened, as the time travel IS what originally happened. Obviously this model's continuity was broken when Link started messing with more important elements.

 

[derubermensch1]

Here is my understanding of core events relative to the Historia. The translation seems to be unclear if the hero is defeated or if he never shows up so until we get an official English version either scenario works, unless there is something wrong below...which is why I'm posting it here so it can be dissected and myself corrected if necessary : )

Hero of Time never shows due to time splits upon returning Master Sword (Link "sleeps" for 7 years on same timeline when sword is pulled and is sent back in time to that exact moment when MS returned, causing a split going forward - there should be 4 splits overall since MS pulled 3 times and returned twice (Adult, Child, and 2 splits for returning MS), but the extra split would have resulted in same concluding events i.e. no hero so in effect there could be 2 substantially similar "Power" timelines but since the end result is the same it is redundant and not worth being made "official" if the hero indeed never showed and was not defeated) > Ganondorf successful

Visual Representation:

--------------------... Original/No Hero - Return MS
--------------------... No Hero 2 - Return MS
--------------------...Adult - No return MS > leads to Child split

OR

There are no time splits do to traveling along the same "river" of time and the Hero of Time is defeated in OoT final battle > Ganondorf successful...I personally hope it is this as it would put everything to rest and it totally works but is contingent on a "pretend" ending and not in-game mechanics, however it is the most concrete and thus gets my vote lol

Either way these 2 theories based on the Historia info seem to work unless I'm missing something?

 

[Blue Window]

^

Several independent sources have all translated the text from the Historia, all of them agreeing on the fact that Link is defeated on the DT. Even though, they are not official translations (even though the official ones have their share of problems too), they are likely right according to the basic principles of source criticism (but there is nothing saying that they must be right).

ShiKage on Zelda Informer

Link, the Hero of Time's Defeat

After obtaining the Triforce of Power, Princess Zelda fell into Ganondorf's hands. Link, the Hero of Time, was defeated during the battle that would decide Hyrule's fate.

SnowBrigardier and GlitterBerr on glitterberri.com

The Defeat of Link, the Hero of Time

The thief, Ganondorf, obtains the Triforce of Power and gets his hands on Princess Zelda. Link, the Hero of Time, challenges him for the destiny of Hyrule, but is defeated.

Snow on Zelda Legends

The defeat of Link, the Hero of Time

The thief Ganondorf steals the Triforce of Power and kidnaps Zelda. Link, the Hero of Time, challenges him for the fate of Hyrule, but loses.

/Blue Window

 

[derubermensch1]

Sweet, thanks, haven't checked up on the translations since within a few days of the reveal : ) That's perfect then and essentially renders any sort of time travel discussion within OoT irrelevant (no more MS pulling, 7 yr sleeping, etc, etc, no splits at all and actually it adheres to the "same river of time" concept mentioned in the game) since it all leads to the same result:

Events of OoT > Final battle > Link victorious > Adult/Child split

> Link loses (I cant seem to indent this to be right under "> Link victorious")

Additionally there is the benefit of it making no difference whatsoever how time time travel is handled independently in the other games. I guess theorists have nothing to argue about anymore if it's literally that simple i.e. "Link loses". Honestly, with that simple answer the only thing remaining that could be a point of controversy is FSA but I think the placement after TP is the obvious fit given the Miyamoto tea-tabling i.e. him stepping in and changing the main concept of the original game (the imprisoning war) and just turning it into a bastardized sequel to FS so they could at least release the product they had. My vote goes for the imprisoning war being the next zelda just to shut the door on that once and for all

 

[fused_shadows]

SPOILERS! Why the "Alternate Past & Future"s Do Not Exist

I have seen a video recently saying that in the two times Link goes back in time in the main quest of Ocarina of Time, he is creating an "Alternate Past". I do not think he is creating Alternat Past's, but staying in the same linear timeline. The two times that he had to go back in time were 1) to learn the song of storms 2) to get the gauntlets from the Spirit Temple. Both times, there is evidence it is a linear timeline up to this point. I will explain below.

In the first situation, if Link goes to Guru Guru as an adult he will say, "I'll never forget what happened on that day, seven years ago! Grrrrrrrrr! It's all that Ocarina kid's fault! Next time he comes around here, I'm gonna mess him up!" If Link wipes out his ocarina, Guru Guru will say, "What?! You've got an ocarina!! What the heck! That reminds me of that time, seven years ago! Back then a mean kid came here and played a strange song. It messed up this windmill! I'll never forget this song!" At this point, Guru Guru will teach you the Song of Storms, quite obviously the song that mean kid played seven years ago. Once Link learns and plays the song it will start to rain. Guru Guru will then say, "Oh, no! A strom again!! You played the Ocarina again, didn't you!! Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!" Through these three lines, Guru Guru is telling us that Link has already been there in the past to play the Song of Stroms. This means that once Link does go back in time to do it for the first time, he is not entering an "Alternate Past", but the same past.

In the second situation, Link first goes to the Gerudo's Fortress and saves the four carpenters. By doing this he gets the Gerudo Membership Card. The one who gives it to him tells him that she is third-in-command behind Ganondorf and Nabooru. She says that Nabooru's headquarters are in the Spirit Temple, and thus Nabooru has left the fortress in her command. Once arriving at the Spirit Temple, there is no sign of Nabooru at all. NONE. However, once Link returns as a child, she is there. Once Link collects the Silver Gauntlets, he sees Twinrova capturing Nabooru. If she is captured in the past, and is not seen in the future, then it is hinting that it is again the same linear timeline, no third spilt.

The only time there is a legitimate spilt is when Zelda sends Link backs in time to "live out your childhood". There is the Adult Timeline, where Link and the sages have successfully sealed Ganondorf in the Sacred Realm. There is also the Child Timeline, where Link has been sent back in time to before he met Zelda by Zelda, and goes to see her and tells her Ganondorf's plans. Ganondorf is then sent to be executed. Two timelines.

 

[A Link In Time]

I have seen a video recently saying that in the two times Link goes back in time in the main quest of Ocarina of Time, he is creating an "Alternate Past". I do not think he is creating Alternat Past's, but staying in the same linear timeline. The two times that he had to go back in time were 1) to learn the song of storms 2) to get the gauntlets from the Spirit Temple. Both times, there is evidence it is a linear timeline up to this point. I will explain below.

In the first situation, if Link goes to Guru Guru as an adult he will say, "I'll never forget what happened on that day, seven years ago! Grrrrrrrrr! It's all that Ocarina kid's fault! Next time he comes around here, I'm gonna mess him up!" If Link wipes out his ocarina, Guru Guru will say, "What?! You've got an ocarina!! What the heck! That reminds me of that time, seven years ago! Back then a mean kid came here and played a strange song. It messed up this windmill! I'll never forget this song!" At this point, Guru Guru will teach you the Song of Storms, quite obviously the song that mean kid played seven years ago. Once Link learns and plays the song it will start to rain. Guru Guru will then say, "Oh, no! A strom again!! You played the Ocarina again, didn't you!! Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!" Through these three lines, Guru Guru is telling us that Link has already been there in the past to play the Song of Stroms. This means that once Link does go back in time to do it for the first time, he is not entering an "Alternate Past", but the same past.

In the second situation, Link first goes to the Gerudo's Fortress and saves the four carpenters. By doing this he gets the Gerudo Membership Card. The one who gives it to him tells him that she is third-in-command behind Ganondorf and Nabooru. She says that Nabooru's headquarters are in the Spirit Temple, and thus Nabooru has left the fortress in her command. Once arriving at the Spirit Temple, there is no sign of Nabooru at all. NONE. However, once Link returns as a child, she is there. Once Link collects the Silver Gauntlets, he sees Twinrova capturing Nabooru. If she is captured in the past, and is not seen in the future, then it is hinting that it is again the same linear timeline, no third spilt.

The only time there is a legitimate spilt is when Zelda sends Link backs in time to "live out your childhood". There is the Adult Timeline, where Link and the sages have successfully sealed Ganondorf in the Sacred Realm. There is also the Child Timeline, where Link has been sent back in time to before he met Zelda by Zelda, and goes to see her and tells her Ganondorf's plans. Ganondorf is then sent to be executed. Two timelines.

Correction: Three timelines as Nintendo confirmed. And it gets fairly confusing with the Song of Storms especially considering that Link didn't play the Song of Storms in the past before he met Guru Guru in the future. This makes it seem as though the timeline is linear with multiple splits but there are also alternate parallel universes much like Termina. It gets to be quite confusing. D:

 

[Locke]

I have seen a video recently saying that in the two times Link goes back in time in the main quest of Ocarina of Time, he is creating an "Alternate Past". I do not think he is creating Alternat Past's, but staying in the same linear timeline. The two times that he had to go back in time were 1) to learn the song of storms 2) to get the gauntlets from the Spirit Temple. Both times, there is evidence it is a linear timeline up to this point. I will explain below.

In the first situation, if Link goes to Guru Guru as an adult he will say, "I'll never forget what happened on that day, seven years ago! Grrrrrrrrr! It's all that Ocarina kid's fault! Next time he comes around here, I'm gonna mess him up!" If Link wipes out his ocarina, Guru Guru will say, "What?! You've got an ocarina!! What the heck! That reminds me of that time, seven years ago! Back then a mean kid came here and played a strange song. It messed up this windmill! I'll never forget this song!" At this point, Guru Guru will teach you the Song of Storms, quite obviously the song that mean kid played seven years ago. Once Link learns and plays the song it will start to rain. Guru Guru will then say, "Oh, no! A strom again!! You played the Ocarina again, didn't you!! Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!" Through these three lines, Guru Guru is telling us that Link has already been there in the past to play the Song of Stroms. This means that once Link does go back in time to do it for the first time, he is not entering an "Alternate Past", but the same past.

In the second situation, Link first goes to the Gerudo's Fortress and saves the four carpenters. By doing this he gets the Gerudo Membership Card. The one who gives it to him tells him that she is third-in-command behind Ganondorf and Nabooru. She says that Nabooru's headquarters are in the Spirit Temple, and thus Nabooru has left the fortress in her command. Once arriving at the Spirit Temple, there is no sign of Nabooru at all. NONE. However, once Link returns as a child, she is there. Once Link collects the Silver Gauntlets, he sees Twinrova capturing Nabooru. If she is captured in the past, and is not seen in the future, then it is hinting that it is again the same linear timeline, no third spilt.

The only time there is a legitimate spilt is when Zelda sends Link backs in time to "live out your childhood". There is the Adult Timeline, where Link and the sages have successfully sealed Ganondorf in the Sacred Realm. There is also the Child Timeline, where Link has been sent back in time to before he met Zelda by Zelda, and goes to see her and tells her Ganondorf's plans. Ganondorf is then sent to be executed. Two timelines.

This is a response to a video, so I'm merging it with the thread in which the video was posted. I don't want several copies of this discussion cluttering up the board, sorry. I do agree with you though. All the evidence points to the Master Sword allowing travel along one timeline, except when Zelda sends Link back at the end. The second split is strictly external and can't be explained in-universe.

 

[Fierce_Deity]

Well a lot has been translated now...http://www.glitterberri.com/hyrule-historia/ maybe we need a sticky of a list of "facts" or "canon". If you read Aonuma's statement, it seems to be pretty official.

 

[cucco002]

I left this forum about 6 months ago so I would not get spoiled about SS, and it worked, seems like I forgot my password and ZD doesn't seem to be sending a mail soon, so, here I am. Since I came back to the zelda community I found many interesting surprises, of course the new official timeline was the best.

Whatever, after many thoughts I came with this same conclusion for the "new" split timeline, and I think it is explained very well in this thread.

I have not much to add, but just something I wanted to say. I think that if we look to the sages/wise men, it can help to support the theory,we can give em a look to them or their relatives, the spirit maidens, descendants of the wise men. The seven maidens would be present in the timeline when ganon succeeds (ALTTP) and in the child timeline (FSA). If the evens of the timeline when ganon succeeds would happen when link is defeated (or whatever) when he is adult, lets just say the sages of that time are just a little "multiracial" for the spirit maidens xD. If we look at the sages from TP, while they don't look completely humans, it is probable that they are.

what I mean is that the time when links fails to stop ganon would make sense to follow the evens when there were no "new" and "multiracial" sages xP. The hyrule unification war is supposed to happen before OoT, so that maybe explains why the sages are only humans (?)
This may not add to much to the theory, but I think it would make more sense this way, with the support of the new (and official) timeline

 

[Blue Window]

To cucco002

Welcome back! The Historia doesn't say that the Sages sealing Ganondorf in the Dark World have to be the Seven Sages from OoT. It might be so, but the picture near the text shows the seven "wise men" from AlttP (i.e. all humans). If the seven sages sealing Ganondorf during the Seal War =/= the Seven Sages that sealed Ganondorf after Link "failed", the "Sage problem" needs not to exist.
/Blue Window

 

[cucco002]

To cucco002

Welcome back! The Historia doesn't say that the Sages sealing Ganondorf in the Dark World have to be the Seven Sages from OoT. It might be so, but the picture near the text shows the seven "wise men" from AlttP (i.e. all humans). If the seven sages sealing Ganondorf during the Seal War =/= the Seven Sages that sealed Ganondorf after Link "failed", the "Sage problem" needs not to exist.
/Blue Window

Thanks, and yeah, exactly, the way the time line is now, there is no problem with the sages. Another thing I just remembered is that, in Alttp, the intro says that the king commanded the seven wise men to seal Ganon, in my opinin, this may support that this timeline split takes place before the events of link adult, as explained before in this thread, correct me if I am wrong, but I don't remember any king alive in OoT when link is an adult

I am just trying to support the idea that the "Link Defeated" thing may not mean that Link was killed by Ganon, but that Link just disappeared completely from the timeline as explained.

 

[Blue Window]

Originally Posted by cucco002

Thanks, and yeah, exactly, the way the time line is now, there is no problem with the sages. Another thing I just remembered is that, in Alttp, the intro says that the king commanded the seven wise men to seal Ganon, in my opinin, this may support that this timeline split takes place before the events of link adult, as explained before in this thread, correct me if I am wrong, but I don't remember any king alive in OoT when link is an adult

I am just trying to support the idea that the "Link Defeated" thing may not mean that Link was killed by Ganon, but that Link just disappeared completely from the timeline as explained

Yeah, no problem!

There is no mentioning of the King during the adult portion of OoT at all. (I've read somewhere that the Historia suggests that Rauru is the King of Hyrule, but that doesn't make much sense since he is like "ancient" and he has a young daughter that doesn't make a connection between them.) Another possibility is that the time between OoT[DT] and the Seal War is long enough to allow a new king to come.

It is of course possible to try to find a way to allow the DT to spring out from an earlier point in the game, but the whole idea behind this timeline seems to be that, after Link fails (he does not have to die), Ganondorf gets the Triforce and the Sages seal him away.

/Blue Window

 

[MegaTallica]

Wow, I think you just converted me from believing in a 2-split timeline to a 3-split timeline...

 

[ottobot]

My Explination of the Link Fails Timeline

everyone agrees that the split between adult and kid link was caused by zelda sending link back in time, so i thought that the newer split could be explained by looking at the other major time travel point, namely the drawing of the master sword. while it is usually assumed that link went into a coma, i feel that that is impossible as link could go back in time. so, i was thinking that link traveled into the future, but that this game's version of time travel has you ageing (or de-ageing) the proper amount. so anyways, on to my actual theory. i think that when link traveled forwards in time the first time, he actually created an alternate universe that was time skipped 7 year into the future. this was the universe that the child/adult split happened in. meanwhile, in the original universe, link grabs the master sword, vanishes into an alternate universe, and is never seen again, allowing ganon to "win" and the rest of that timeline to pan out.

so like this:
........................................Ganon wins timeline
......................................./
start of game---link gets MS ............................................................ adult timeline
......................................\............................................................/
........................................link goes through game---link beats ganon
...................................................................................................\
..................................................................................................... child timeline

 

[Blue Window]

To ottobot

In your, technically, reasonable theory, you propose that Ganondorf wins because Link disappears from the timeline. What do you then think of the Historia clearly stating that Link battled Ganondorf and lost (when he was an adult, had the Triforce of Courage and had awakened the Sages)?

The Decisive Battle With Ganondorf

However, Ganondorf, who had held Link under observation, kidnapped Princess Zelda and took her to the castle, and, in an effort to obtain the Triforce, lured Link to him.

Once the Triforce of Power, possessed by Ganondorf, the Triforce of Wisdom that dwelt in Princess Zelda, and the Triforce of Courage that dwelt in Link became one, they would resonate together. Finally, the time had come to battle with Ganondorf.

(This is where, if the Hero of Time, Link, is defeated, another timeline will unfold. Please turn to page 92.)

(Translated by GlitterBerri on glitterberri.com)

It should be noted that it is previously stated that this event takes place in the "adult era" and that the previous page described the awakening of the Sages.

/Blue Window