There are more timelines than we thought.

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

Dude... you're making it sound like the crystal was always there since the dawn of time itself.

But when we go back in the past to see Zelda and get our sword blessed by her, she then seals herself in the crystal.

Last I checked, Zelda MOVES AROUND BECAUSE SHE IS A PERSON, and didn't get sealed away in the crystal until AFTER she went back in time.

We see the crystal in place BEFORE she went back in time.

But the Lifetree is not present in the grove until AFTER we plant it there ourselves in the past.

Had the crystal not been visible in the gap of the Sealed Temple door at the beginning of the game and then only became visible AFTER Zelda went back in time with Young Impa, this split-timeline theory wouldn't be here and we wouldn't be discussing it since it would have no evidence to support it. The only evidence that we would have would support the notion that the timeline remains singular and all people who adjust the past will retroactively change the future. And yet, we do not see that occur.

Heck, Nintendo didn't even have to make a gap in the Sealed Temple door when we are in the future. It could've been simply closed tight like it was in the past when the temple was newer and less run down. But the fact of the matter is that Nintendo designed the gap to be there, and we can SEE the Amber there EVEN THOUGH we haven't reach the point when we go back into the past and witness the Amber's creation when Zelda entered her state of hibernation.

Yes, Physics are constant through time travel. But like the Lifetree Seed, Zelda moves around. We shouldn't see the amber until AFTER the time-travel after the third dungeon was completed. But instead, we DO see it floating there, twisted in vines early in the game LONG before Zelda has a chance to go into the past and make such a change. Which tells me ONE THING.

Zelda, with her memories and powers of Hylia reawakened within her, was able to retroactively change the events of the future to an extent when she went into the past with Young Impa. Hence why despite being a person that moves around freely in space, the amber shows up there in the beginning of the game. And Nintendo clearly wanted us to see that, given that the gap in the door exists for us to peek into the back room.

Ok after reading this I get what you are saying. Before she goes through the gate in the present the crystal is already there. That was my bad.

 

[RamboBambiBambo]

Thank you.

It is such a headache trying to keep personal character timelines and their actions on the universe's timeline intact while trying to describe it all together.
I need to pop some acetaminophen pills to fix my headache.

 

[Mikey the Moblin]

Wheel timeline.

 

[RamboBambiBambo]

Wheel timeline.

....................................................................................................that is called a clock..................

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

Thank you.

It is such a headache trying to keep personal character timelines and their actions on the universe's timeline intact while trying to describe it all together.
I need to pop some acetaminophen pills to fix my headache.

I didn't mean to be stubborn, I was just thinking of it like we were talking about the amber cutscene in a bubble and not in the context of before.

Your reasoning is valid then.

Spoiler

The bracelet also happens later in the game in the past, but Old Impa always has the bracelet even from the start of the game. Which I guess means what Zelda specifically will do has already come to pass before she actually even does it.

 

[RamboBambiBambo]

Retroactive timeline fixing.

Because she is Hylia incarnate.

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

Retroactive timeline fixing.

Because she is Hylia incarnate.

I wonder if this applies to other Zeldas as well. Especially OoT Zelda because the Adult/Child splits are the result of her sending Link back in time using the Ocarina of Time.

 

[RamboBambiBambo]

Well, here is my theory on that.

SS Zelda had to pray at two certain springs to awaken her memories and powers of Hylia. Before they were just dormant.

OoT Zelda didn't pray at any springs and thus when she sent Link back in time, she was just a mortal with Hylia's blood and NOT her full divine power and authority. As a result, we get a timeline split because without that Divine Authority; she is just another mortal. Think of a rich kid claiming to have power at his dad's company and trying to fire a worker for just being annoying.

Rich Kid has no authority, but his ancestor does.

 

[Ryuu Kage Desu]

I've theorized about this before. Here is what I have said before.

I have come to the conclusion that the players have been experiencing three different forms of time travel. As time travel goes, there are four kinds that have been used in the majority of si-fi; Fixed time, dynamic time, multiverse/string theory, and temporal echoes. As far as moderns science goes, there has been a lot of theorizing about the multiverse theory. I don't see any evidence for link experiencing universe destroying paradoxes, so dynamic time is out. (It may be for the best.)

The multiverse style of time travel means that when any change happens, a different universe is created, and the time lines split. This is also a part of string theory. Unfortunately, this means that it is impossible to return to your original time. You can find one similar to your original, but when you enter that universe, a split happens to account for your arrival. Ocarina of Time is obviously an example of this type of time travel, due to the three time lines. (This means that the time line where Gannon wins is the time line that link is originally taken from, meaning that link really didn't loose, he just vanished.) For the moment, we can set aside the part of string theory stating that every possible choice/event causes a new universe to split off, spawning a new timeline.

Fixed time travel, or predetermination, happens when a time traveler causes a situation that already exists. An example of this is in Twilight Princess, when Link attains the master sword through a time portal, there by causing the sword to not be there in the first place. The majority of the story for Skyward Sword is also a predetermination event. These events hinge on something that has already happened, then time travel is used to create that very situation.

Then there are temporal echoes. This really isn't time "travel" in the same sense. This is when the effects of a different time are overlapped to a limited degree. Actions by an echo do not effect the world at large. The timeshift stones in Skyward Sword would be an example of this. When Link activates one of these, he isn't actually transported to the ancient era; but the era is duplicated, and overlapped on to the current time. When Link plants a seed, or causes something to move, he didn't actually go back in time to cause the change. What the stones allowed is for changes to happen in an instant, as though they happened over a long time. When Link picks one of those flowers, he doesn't actually pick that flower from way back then, but a duplication of that flower.
Majora's Mask may also fit in this category. For it to work, though, time would have to be stopped at some point, and Link would be sending echoes of himself through time. This is evident in how the world seems to reset, and Links actions don't make any permanent change until the end when it all coalesces together.

Unless I forgot one, this leaves Oracle of Ages. The game has significant changes that happen to the world at large, which suggests multiverse. There is also instances where changes are noticeable, which could be evidence of temporal echoes, or Link is somehow allowed to experience these changes differently then others would.
If Oracle of Ages uses string theory style time travel, the universe that link departs from, is never changed, and Link fails his task. The universe that is created by Link fixing the past is the universe that leads up to Zelda 1 & 2.

I do think there is a time split in Skyward sword, though. It's at the end, where Link has a choice to go through the portal. It's not a cut scene. The player chooses when to go through, and whether to go through at all. Before Link steps through, there is plenty of time, all of history, in fact, for Demise to recreate the world to his whim. Then Link does step through, either creating the second split, or aligning the time with what we have already seen, al a predetermination.

 

[Mipha]

i think the whole timeline matter is more about game chronology, not every possible (even in universe) alternate course of events. there isnt a game about this bad ending so i would not call it another zelda timeline.

 

[RamboBambiBambo]

i think the whole timeline matter is more about game chronology, not every possible (even in universe) alternate course of events. there isnt a game about this bad ending so i would not call it another zelda timeline.

Hey @Spooky Mask Salesman ... should I bring up the Amber Stone again?

If you read through the comments, me and Spooky had a HEATED discussion about the fact that the Amber stone that Zelda resides in is PROOF that there is shenanigans happening.

 

[Mikey the Moblin]

Skyward sword is a weird game because its events are deterministic. Since the outcome is the same every time you literally can't create bootstrap paradoxes from your actions because all of those actions were supposed to happen from a divine perspective

 

[Ryuu Kage Desu]

Skyward sword is a weird game because its events are deterministic. Since the outcome is the same every time you literally can't create bootstrap paradoxes from your actions because all of those actions were supposed to happen from a divine perspective

Of course, bootstrap paradoxes are only a thing with dynamic time. With multi verse, and fixed time, bootstrapping doesn't result in paradoxes, for basically opposite reasons. With multi verse, the attempt to bootstrap just creates a new time split. With fixed time, the attempt is what lead to how everything already was.