There are more timelines than we thought.

[RamboBambiBambo]

Currently we know of only two splits in the Zelda timeline; being the Downfall / Childhood / Adulthood timelines from Ocarina of Time and the alternate timeline created by Terrako's timewarp for Hyrule Warriors - Age of Calamity to take place in.

But... shouldn't there be more timelines?

Spoiler: Spoilers for Skyward Sword

In my recent playthrough of Skyward Sword, I noticed that we have an obvious case of a Time-Split occurring. There is the part of the game where you must plant the Lifetree Seed in the grove within the Sealed Temple in the past in order to cause a tree to grow so that you can deliver the Lifetree Fruit to Lanayru the Dragon in the present.

Before you venture back in time, Groose is at the spot where the tree should be planted and will provide dialogue where it hints to players where the seed should be planted.

But AFTER you venture back in time, his dialogue changes now that a tree is there. And he will comment saying "every time I stare at this tree, it is soothing and relaxing."

This tells me one thing. There is an obvious timeline split occurring in Skyward Sword. A timeline where Link suddenly vanished from existence and Demise eventually became victorious over the land; still ever searching for The Triforce ! Because of Groose's dialogue change suggesting that this tree has now been here since he first arrived on the surface, that means that another timeline split had occurred. One with the Tree and one without the tree.

Now... you could argue that there should be another timeline split. One where Zelda and Impa first stepped into the Gate of Time at the Lanayru Temple of Time, but there is a stark difference between the two events. You see, Zelda is the successor to Hylia; the Goddess of Time. Whenever she makes changes to time itself, her changes are absolute. It is why the time-loop that is Skyward Sword (Hylia's Prophesized Hero is already predetermined not because she forsaw the events, but rather because the events had already happened, as evident of Old Lady Impa being present since the beginning of the game.)

Whereas when Link, a mortal who is not a Deity of Time, goes and causes events that change the course of time; it causes a timeline split.

So in reality, after Skyward Sword; there is no Unified Timeline. There is just the timeline with the good ending to Skyward Sword and the one where Link suddenly vanished and caused something akin to the Downfall Timeline where OoT Link either vanished or failed in his fight against Ganon, only now it is Demise who gets victory and there is now no one left to seal him away!

You could also argue that there should be a timeline split for Majora's Mask and Oracle of Ages, but Termina is an alternate dimension so that would result in that dimension having separate timeline issues rather than the main one where Hyrule is present. And Oracle of Ages has you venture between time-periods with the Lute of Time; which could temporarily give Link the "Deity of Time" status required to prevent paradoxes and thus the effects he causes are absolute between Labrynna's Past and Future eras.

Whaddya think guys?

Heck, should Nintendo make a game where Demise is ruler of the world but Link, being an ever-reincarnating immortal soul, still comes around to prevail and restore the world to as it once was? Like the finale has him assemble the Triforce, defeat Demise, and wish for the world to be returned to normal; which the Gods interpret as brining Hylia back to life and assisting Link in defeating Demise once and for all? A timeline where the Royal Family of Hyrule doesn't occur in the normal sense as Link now becomes the first King of Hyrule, and answers to Hylia herself in her Divine form? It could be interesting to say the least.

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

There is a grandfather paradox in Skyward Sword.

Spoiler

Because Ghirahim goes back in time and revives Demise, Link kills him the past, thousands of years before the events that spur the game even take place. Upon returning to the original timeframe, however, things are still the same. They never should have gone to the surface though if Demise was killed in the past - they took away the driving factor that spurred the quest to begin with.

The death of the Thunder Dragon and the fruit from the Tree of Life actually explain why Skyward Swords paradoxes don't actually alter reality permanently, or create splits in time. The entire game has a theme of predestiny, and things will fall into place to make sure the predestined outcome comes to pass, even if certain aspects don't originally work out the way they should. The Thunder Dragon can be revived via time manipulation, and that erases away the scenario of Link failing to complete his quest.

The whole thing with Demise is trickier to explain though. There are some theories left to rectify the issue, like the possibility that some portion of Demise remained in the sealed pit. However at the end of the day predestinity trumps everything else apparently, so everything else is inconsequential.

 

[RamboBambiBambo]

Yeah. The whole finale of the title just has a massive plot-hole in it....unless........
....

Spoiler: Hylia intervention.

Like I stated in my original message, timeline shifts that have Zelda/Hylia herself directly involved in the shift or the events will result in her will being superposed upon time itself - being a Goddess of Time and all. As a result, when Ghirahim takes Zelda through the Gate of Time back to the past... she might have caused the time to shift to the timeline where Link abandons the timeline from when he first went to plant the Lifeseed.

Since Demise would be free to reign in a timeline that Link disappeared from, Zelda could have forced Ghirahim to take her to the timeline of her choosing. This could allow her to rectify an issue that would persist in that alternate timeline and ensure that if Link failed in his final fight, Demise would only rule over and destroy one timeline while the one where Link used the Triforce itself to destroy Demise would be free of his influence.

The irony of it being that since Link was victorious and Demise was sealed away within the Master Sword AND Demise laid a curse to guarantee a successor to his Hatred would always torment the Spirit of the Hero and the Bloodline of Hylia is that Demise then persists in the timeline where the Triforce WAS used to successfully end him, but the curse followed them through. Thus resulting in a switcheroo of which timeline gets to suffer Demise's wrath eternally and which timeline is free of his influence.

So technically speaking... Skyward Sword's ending has still resulted in two timelines. One where Demise was slain by the Hero in the past and his curse was taken with them to the other timeline. As a result, the citizens of Skyloft in the timeline where Demise was slain in the past and removed from their timeline would be free from his influence and free to return to the surface at any moment.

While in the timeline we follow is less of a happy ending in the long run, but the immediate happy ending.

After all, the fact that you return to the present and that Groose and Impa seem to remember the existence of Demise supports this, since if the past of that timeline was truly changed then EVERYTHING would have changed.

So I guess you can say that the ending we got was the Bad Ending and the Good Ending is arguably the one where Link dies in the final fight in the alternate timeline!

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

Yeah. The whole finale of the title just has a massive plot-hole in it....unless........
....

Spoiler: Hylia intervention.

Like I stated in my original message, timeline shifts that have Zelda/Hylia herself directly involved in the shift or the events will result in her will being superposed upon time itself - being a Goddess of Time and all. As a result, when Ghirahim takes Zelda through the Gate of Time back to the past... she might have caused the time to shift to the timeline where Link abandons the timeline from when he first went to plant the Lifeseed.

Since Demise would be free to reign in a timeline that Link disappeared from, Zelda could have forced Ghirahim to take her to the timeline of her choosing. This could allow her to rectify an issue that would persist in that alternate timeline and ensure that if Link failed in his final fight, Demise would only rule over and destroy one timeline while the one where Link used the Triforce itself to destroy Demise would be free of his influence.

The irony of it being that since Link was victorious and Demise was sealed away within the Master Sword AND Demise laid a curse to guarantee a successor to his Hatred would always torment the Spirit of the Hero and the Bloodline of Hylia is that Demise then persists in the timeline where the Triforce WAS used to successfully end him, but the curse followed them through. Thus resulting in a switcheroo of which timeline gets to suffer Demise's wrath eternally and which timeline is free of his influence.

So technically speaking... Skyward Sword's ending has still resulted in two timelines. One where Demise was slain by the Hero in the past and his curse was taken with them to the other timeline. As a result, the citizens of Skyloft in the timeline where Demise was slain in the past and removed from their timeline would be free from his influence and free to return to the surface at any moment.

While in the timeline we follow is less of a happy ending in the long run, but the immediate happy ending.

After all, the fact that you return to the present and that Groose and Impa seem to remember the existence of Demise supports this, since if the past of that timeline was truly changed then EVERYTHING would have changed.

So I guess you can say that the ending we got was the Bad Ending and the Good Ending is arguably the one where Link dies in the final fight in the alternate timeline!

There is no indication the SS Zelda has any sort of power like you described. I think predestination is the simplest solution. Things just work themselves out naturally. Maybe there is some alternate timeline where Ghirahim never created that tornado to bring Zelda the surface, and on that timeline things work out differently. It doesn't really matter though.

 

[RamboBambiBambo]

It kinda does matter.

Considering the fact that there is an indication of there being only one timeline before the events of Ocarina of Time, where multiple timelines were made as a result of time-travel occurring.

Since Time Travel has been used in Skyward Sword, then that implies that there should be diverging timelines here as well since we can see clear changes happening when we travel through time and make changes ourselves.

Spoiler: The Sealed Temple's Secret

I put this part in a spoiler because it has implications to the story of Skyward Sword.

Zelda is in the Sealed Temple when Link first arrives to the surface near the beginning of the game. You can walk up behind Old Impa and peek through the massive door behind her since one side is dislodged and creating a triangular gap. You can see the Amber Crystal that Hylia/Zelda slumbers in.

Zelda is Hylia reborn as a mortal. Hylia, being the Goddess of Time, is able to manipulate time and keep it consistent in one timeline. As a result by our actions later in the game where she goes to the past with Young Impa and begins to make changes; those changes are consistent and stay within the unified timeline; thus allowing us to see her during her slumber within the Amber Crystal in the Sealed Temple's rear room.

Meanwhile, when we go back in time and plant the seed for the Lifetree; there is a clear change that occurred and you can see the results of said change as now there is suddenly the Lifetree planted in the Sealed Temple and Groose has no knowledge of the change that occurred.

The reason I bring this fact up is since Zelda first went back in time well AFTER Link's first arrival on the surface world, then that should mean that we SHOULDN't see her in the Sealed Temple early in the game. HOWEVER, since we do see her there; then it means that when Zelda/Hylia makes direct changes with the timeline, that it should be a definitive change that results in a singular timeline. Whereas when a mortal or other entity that ISN'T a God or Goddess or Deity of Time makes a change, this deviation results in a split timeline.

Basically, Mortals shouldn't mess with Time. Only the Gods who are responsible with the power and have the authority to prevent temporal splits.

 

[GZ Zelda]

Also we aren't factoring in the almost infinite amount of timelines that Oracle of Ages creates.

 

[RamboBambiBambo]

I already did.
In my original post, I reference the fact that OoA has Link use the Harp of Ages. Given that Nayru is the appointed Oracle of Ages, that would imply that whoever uses the Harp will be given the "Deity of Time" status that Hylia holds. Which means that whenever Link makes a change in the past, it alters the presence.

Spoiler: Important Factor that I don't want to spoil

Since Veran's time travel was seen to show clear impact on the world as we knew it, it would mean that Veran was able to make her changes absolute across the main timeline by using her possession of Nayru to manipulate time and make it a definitive change rather than a split change. Since that when Nayru/Veran went back in time, the effects of her actions in the past were able to be seen in the past immediately.

If it were a timeline split, that would mean that essentially Nayru/Veran would vanish from the timeline without any changes occurring. Just that she suddenly vanished and was never seen from again. But since Nayru is an Oracle of Ages, ie - an entity entrusted with the flow and authority over time itself - that means any changes made in the past by Nayru (or in this case Veran possessing Nayru and her abilities) would be felt in the future rather than causing a timeline split.

And thus, when Link acquires the Harp of Ages, he takes on the role of the Oracle of Ages; able to travel back and forth between the past and the future, his actions now having a mending effect on the negative changes that Veran had caused by possessing Nayru.

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

I am just not conviced Zelda is unknowingly keeping the timelines solidified. Maybe some essence of Hylia exists still and is fixing inconsistencies in the flow of time, but I doubt Zelda is doing it.

Spoiler

Zelda went into the slumber in the past anyway so seeing her in the crystal does make sense, we should see her there, lol.

Anyway Old Impa has the bracelet on that Zelda gives her at the end of the game even in the first encoubter with Old Impa, and that proves everything is predestined.

 

[RamboBambiBambo]

I am just not convinced Zelda is unknowingly keeping the timelines solidified. Maybe some essence of Hylia exists still and is fixing inconsistencies in the flow of time, but I doubt Zelda is doing it.

Spoiler

Zelda went into the slumber in the past anyway so seeing her in the crystal does make sense, we should see her there, lol.

Anyway Old Impa has the bracelet on that Zelda gives her at the end of the game even in the first encoubter with Old Impa, and that proves everything is predestined.

What I am saying is that Zelda's time-travel has to be different than Link's and it is probably more of a passive thing.

Spoiler: Again, spoilers for LoZ SS

Because in the game we see the spot for the Lifeseed tree is vacant and then we can plant it there. Upon returning to the present, Groose has no knowledge of an empty grove, he acknowledges that the tree has now been there the entire time he is there.

But at the start of our adventure, you can see Zelda in the Amber Stasis Crystal EVEN THOUGH she doesn't go back in time for like another 8 hours of gameplay. This tells me one of two things :

• Zelda's / Hylia's changes are retroactive and prevent timeline split symptoms.
• or we are playing in an offshoot timeline where Zelda was brought down the surface before and we had plenty of failure timelines and we are now seeing the first success in the potential time-loop that she had created.

With the timeloop being it's own can-of-worms of questions like : How did Zelda get down to the surface in the first place? Was she always friends with Link or what? It leaves far more open questions than "She is the Goddess of Time, so she has dominion over the timeline and anything she does to change the past retroactively changes the timeline as a whole without paradox creations."

After all, Link went back in time and planted the Lifeseed. But the tree wasn't there when you first came down to the surface.
And yet, Zelda is able to be seen in her state of slumber within the Amber gemstone through the gap in the door, even though she has yet to go back in time herself, since you are still following her trail in Faron Woods; far from the events in the Lanayru Desert and the Temple of Time.

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

What I am saying is that Zelda's time-travel has to be different than Link's and it is probably more of a passive thing.

Spoiler: Again, spoilers for LoZ SS

Because in the game we see the spot for the Lifeseed tree is vacant and then we can plant it there. Upon returning to the present, Groose has no knowledge of an empty grove, he acknowledges that the tree has now been there the entire time he is there.

But at the start of our adventure, you can see Zelda in the Amber Stasis Crystal EVEN THOUGH she doesn't go back in time for like another 8 hours of gameplay. This tells me one of two things :

• Zelda's / Hylia's changes are retroactive and prevent timeline split symptoms.
• or we are playing in an offshoot timeline where Zelda was brought down the surface before and we had plenty of failure timelines and we are now seeing the first success in the potential time-loop that she had created.

With the timeloop being it's own can-of-worms of questions like : How did Zelda get down to the surface in the first place? Was she always friends with Link or what? It leaves far more open questions than "She is the Goddess of Time, so she has dominion over the timeline and anything she does to change the past retroactively changes the timeline as a whole without paradox creations."

After all, Link went back in time and planted the Lifeseed. But the tree wasn't there when you first came down to the surface.
And yet, Zelda is able to be seen in her state of slumber within the Amber gemstone through the gap in the door, even though she has yet to go back in time herself, since you are still following her trail in Faron Woods; far from the events in the Lanayru Desert and the Temple of Time.

I think this is just a necessary gameplay function that doesn't match with the story, unfortunately.

Spoiler

If the Tree of Life is always in the Sealed Temple than Link could just take the fruit whenever, which causes a paradox in of itself. It also ruins a key portion of the gameplay.

However I think I have a more simple explanation than your "Zelda is unknowingly passively influencing time when she time travels" theory, and it's as simple as the Tree of Life sapling originally being in a completely different location.

When you go to the Sand Sea in the present the Tree of Life is fully grown but shriveled up. Link uses the Timeshift stone in the area to go back in time to when it was still a sapling and then transfers it to the Sealed Temple of the past.

Zelda's Crystal never moves locations which is why it's in the back room to begin with. This is the key difference. Something that is in the past in a different location shouldn't also be in the location it will eventually end up in until it is actually moved in the past.[/thread]

 

[RamboBambiBambo]

Regardless, it still insinuates that anyone meddling with time that IS NOT an individual authority over time will result in a timeline split. Thus, Skyward Sword has a timeline split caused by Link traveling through time and causing adjustments to the past WITHOUT Zelda being there to make his changes definitive.

And honestly, if Nintendo acknowledges this split it COULD open up the opportunity for more games to be made with a broader story outside of the established lore restrictions of the main timelines we already have mapped out.

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

Regardless, it still insinuates that anyone meddling with time that IS NOT an individual authority over time will result in a timeline split. Thus, Skyward Sword has a timeline split caused by Link traveling through time and causing adjustments to the past WITHOUT Zelda being there to make his changes definitive.

And honestly, if Nintendo acknowledges this split it COULD open up the opportunity for more games to be made with a broader story outside of the established lore restrictions of the main timelines we already have mapped out.

I don't think the Tree of Life causes an issue, I explained why its change doesn't have an instant effect and it doesn't have anything to do with Zelda being there or not. Something that hasn't been moved in the past won't be in a different location in the future, because it still hasn't been moved in the past. If anything this tells you what Link does in the past does have instant results in the future, but he has to go into the past and make it happen before the future can be changed.

 

[RamboBambiBambo]

I don't think the Tree of Life causes an issue, I explained why its change doesn't have an instant effect and it doesn't have anything to do with Zelda being there or not. Something that hasn't been moved in the past won't be in a different location in the futute, because it still hasn't been moved in the past. If anything this tells you what Link does in the past does have instant results in the future, bit he has to go into the past and make it happen before the future can be changed.

.......but that is exactly what happens?

Spoiler: Redundant Spoilers for LoZ Skyward Sword

In the Lanayru Quarry, you find Lanayru the Dragon is dead. Striking a Timeshift Stone sends the local area into the past and to a point where Lanayru is still sick and dying, he needs the Fruit of the Lifetree to live. But the land it was planted in is becoming a desert and the tree will just grow to be a dead husk. But Link approaches the dead tree, strikes another Timeshift Stone to bring time in that local spot back to the point where the seed was freshly planted. He then takes the seed, while still in the present, back to the Sealed Temple.

He then walks through the Gate of Time, plants the seed a thousand or so years into the past, and then returns to the present to find a tree where a tree was not. The timeline has been altered because now Groose will make comments on how much he likes the tree that has been in that grove; his dialogue showing that he has no knowledge of the small grove being vacant just moments before.

The reason I point this all out is because of the fact that LINK was the one who moved the seed and LINK was the one who moved through the Gate of Time.

Had ZELDA been the one to do so, then when players first arrived to the Faron Region and entered the Sealed Temple in the early game, the Lifetree would have already been there, as evident by the Amber she rests in being there in the beginning as well.

The reason why I say this is because EVEN THOUGH we haven't reached the point where Zelda entered the past with Young Impa at the Lanayru Temple of Time, made her way to the Sealed Temple in the past, and then entered her dormant state of slumber within the Amber Gemstone; we the player can see her in the amber stone when we first touch down onto the surface just by peeking through the crack in the door.

This means that Zelda, being literal Hylia herself and Goddess of TIME is able to alter the past events without causing a time-split because the changes that Hylia makes to the timeline are definitive and retroactively change history. I mean seriously, if you have a Goddess of Time who is able to monitor and make changes to the timeline where she has the power to do so, would it make any sense for her power to not be absolute in the adjustment of the timeline instead of the power and will of a mortal meddling with time and causing it to unravel into separate outcomes?

The point still remains that when Link ventures into the past and makes a change, we witness said change affect the present. While when Zelda went into the past, nothing changed. Had there been no Amber visible through the crack in the door at the back of the Sealed Temple until AFTER Zelda went back in time, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

I think you're not getting what I'm saying. Physics are a constant, even through time travel. That's the key difference between the Tree of Life not being instant, but why Zelda's crystal is. The crystal is in the same spot the entire time and doesn't need to be moved, the sapling does get moved though.

I get that you want really want your theory of Zelda passively resolving time anomalies to be right, but this instance with the Tree of Life isn't a time paradox for the reason you think it is.

Edit: summed up as best as I can, my point is that the only reason there isn't a paradox with the amber is because it is always in the same spot, it is never going to need to be moved, so a paradox can never occur from it.

 

[RamboBambiBambo]

Dude... you're making it sound like the crystal was always there since the dawn of time itself.

But when we go back in the past to see Zelda and get our sword blessed by her, she then seals herself in the crystal.

Last I checked, Zelda MOVES AROUND BECAUSE SHE IS A PERSON, and didn't get sealed away in the crystal until AFTER she went back in time.

We see the crystal in place BEFORE she went back in time.

But the Lifetree is not present in the grove until AFTER we plant it there ourselves in the past.

Had the crystal not been visible in the gap of the Sealed Temple door at the beginning of the game and then only became visible AFTER Zelda went back in time with Young Impa, this split-timeline theory wouldn't be here and we wouldn't be discussing it since it would have no evidence to support it. The only evidence that we would have would support the notion that the timeline remains singular and all people who adjust the past will retroactively change the future. And yet, we do not see that occur.

Heck, Nintendo didn't even have to make a gap in the Sealed Temple door when we are in the future. It could've been simply closed tight like it was in the past when the temple was newer and less run down. But the fact of the matter is that Nintendo designed the gap to be there, and we can SEE the Amber there EVEN THOUGH we haven't reach the point when we go back into the past and witness the Amber's creation when Zelda entered her state of hibernation.

Yes, Physics are constant through time travel. But like the Lifetree Seed, Zelda moves around. We shouldn't see the amber until AFTER the time-travel after the third dungeon was completed. But instead, we DO see it floating there, twisted in vines early in the game LONG before Zelda has a chance to go into the past and make such a change. Which tells me ONE THING.

Zelda, with her memories and powers of Hylia reawakened within her, was able to retroactively change the events of the future to an extent when she went into the past with Young Impa. Hence why despite being a person that moves around freely in space, the amber shows up there in the beginning of the game. And Nintendo clearly wanted us to see that, given that the gap in the door exists for us to peek into the back room.