A Link Between Worlds Theory: Lorule is Actually Hyrule (Spoilers)

[Justac00lguy]

I really think with every theory I start to dislike Zelda fans (which I unfortunately am part of) more and more. Lorule is NOT Hyrule. Proof: No one in Nintendo said it was and it's not stated in game.

I don't think I need any more proof than that. Stuff like "why do some fairies heal and others don't" is good Zelda theorizing. It's factual that some heal and some don't so it's nice to discuss the possibilities. Stuff like this is a bit ridiculous. To quote Kobe Bryant: "That's a Bikram yoga stretch".

My theory: Link is actually Zelda. Look at these ridiculous quotes!

Theorising is a vital part of the Zelda series and gaming in general. It's more the case for Zelda as there are so many obscurities that it's up to us to connect the dots to get a greater understanding. If you don't like theorising then don't comment it's as simpler as that, your comment doesn't add to to topic and it is complete redundant.

I know what you've done: you saw the title and completely laughed. I phrased it that way to get attention. I can bet a lot that you didn't bother to read the points I mentioned as, if you had, then you would see that I've provided a lot of evidence supporting it and it's why many people in this thread have come to a mutual understanding with me.

I think it's fine to be against theorising; some like it some don't and that's perfectly natural. However, to completely discredit and insult other people's work is not the best way to go about things and it's something that you've done a lot, not just in this thread.

 

[Cfrock]

As I understand it, you're saying that Lorule is just another split of Hyrule, the same way Twilight Princess's Hyrule and A Link to the Past's Hyrule run parallel. Lorule is just one more of these parallel Hyrule's, one that broke off due to the decision to destroy the Triforce instead of sealing Ganon away.

There are three things that don't fit for me.

First, if the point of the split is the Imprisoning War then we have to consider this closely. The possibility has already been raised that Ganon's invasion from the Dark World, the event which is the sole cause of said war, was unsuccessful due to the destruction of the Triforce. However, if that were the case, and the war was won by a more conventional means, that means the Dark World wasn't sealed up afterwards, therefore Lorule should still have an open connection to it. Afterall, if they decided not to seal it when Ganon was invading then why would they do so later when the threat was gone? In A Link to the Past portals to the Dark World open up all over Hyrule and yet Lorule has no equivalent. This suggests the Dark World never was connected to Lorule, and if it wasn't then The Imprisoning War never happened.

This actually fits in with A Link Between Worlds. When Hilda talks about the events leading to the destruction of their Triforce she never talks about an invasion of monsters or the Dark World or Ganon. She simply says that the people of Lorule started wars over the Triforce itself because it grants wishes. This strongly suggests that The Imprisoning War simply never happened in Lorule which is further supported by the lack of connecting portals. If The Imprisoning War never happened in Lorule then at what point did the split which created Lorule happen and why?

Second, Hilda's history lesson shows that Lorule was called Lorule before the destruction of the Triforce. If Lorule and Hyrule share a history right up until a specific point where they split, which this theory suggests is roughly the time the Triforce is destoryed, then how could Lorule have a different name? What would be the reason for changing it? Why would it have different symbolism? We see an image of an upside-down golden Triforce right before the blackened one you used as evidence. You suggested that the upside-down position was a method to show the power was gone, but it is shown clearly that it was already like that when it still existed. Furthermore, Hilda's royal staff has a Triforce motiff, again, featuring upside-down triangles. Why would the Lorule royal family honour an object that no longer exists? The staff must predate the Triforce's destruction. Also, when Lorule's Triforce is returned at the end of the game, it is upside-down, which doesn't fit with the position representing its absence. It's much more likely that Lorule's Triforce was always upside-down and that its destruction had nothing to do with the way it is depicted.

Third, when Hilda takes Link and Zelda into Lorule's Sacred Realm, she shows them the crack in the slab and explains that Yuga used this crack to access Hyrule. If Lorule is another result of a split, then it should be running parallel to not just the Hero Defeated Hyrule of A Link Between Worlds, but the Child Hyrule (of Twilight Princess), and the Adult Hyrule (of The Wind Waker) as well. Yet Lorule only connects to the one parallel world. This suggests a strong connection between Lorule and the Hero Defeated Hyrule specifically; if it was just another version of Hyrule then for what reason would it not connect to the other Hyrules as well?

Lorule is definitely a parallel world, but I'm not convinced that it was once Hyrule.

 

[Justac00lguy]

First, if the point of the split is the Imprisoning War then we have to consider this closely. The possibility has already been raised that Ganon's invasion from the Dark World, the event which is the sole cause of said war, was unsuccessful due to the destruction of the Triforce. However, if that were the case, and the war was won by a more conventional means, that means the Dark World wasn't sealed up afterwards, therefore Lorule should still have an open connection to it. Afterall, if they decided not to seal it when Ganon was invading then why would they do so later when the threat was gone? In A Link to the Past portals to the Dark World open up all over Hyrule and yet Lorule has no equivalent. This suggests the Dark World never was connected to Lorule, and if it wasn't then The Imprisoning War never happened.

Well first off, I'm glad that someone pointed out some inconsistencies as this is why we theorise.

While you raise a valid point, there was a reason to why they were "open portals" to the Dark World. Although, they weren't really open portals as if they just popped up out of nowhere. They were in fact present due to Agahnim creating them not because he reopened the Dark World. I think it's safe say, given his magical abilities, that he was capable of doing such a thing.

However, Agahnim would never be present in my twist on the origins of Lorule, well most likely anyway. Usually there is only one entrance to the Sacred Realm. Hilda and Ravio were actually able to show Link and Zelda into its depths, which that means it was never sealed in the first place.

This actually fits in with A Link Between Worlds. When Hilda talks about the events leading to the destruction of their Triforce she never talks about an invasion of monsters or the Dark World or Ganon. She simply says that the people of Lorule started wars over the Triforce itself because it grants wishes. This strongly suggests that The Imprisoning War simply never happened in Lorule which is further supported by the lack of connecting portals. If The Imprisoning War never happened in Lorule then at what point did the split which created Lorule happen and why?

What she states is very brief and quite ambiguous, so it's kind of hard for me to work with. I'm sure there is more to the tale than meets the eye; she was just giving Link the small details. However, the details that she does give us do actually relate to what was originally stated in the Imprisoning War. In Hyrule (Defeated Timeline) it states a rather similar, if not identical, scenario to what happened in Lorule's take of destruction:

Hyrule Historia - (GlitterBerri Translation): However, knowledge of the Sacred Realm and the Triforce spread across Hyrule, and many greedy people searched for it in order to claim its power.

But the Sacred Realm had become the Dark World under Ganondorf’s control, and those who ventured there never returned. Instead, only evil came out of the entrance.

So this event took place towards the end of the Imprisoning War and maybe Hilda didn't need to tell Link of what led up to this point as it would seem redundant. The tale of Lorule focuses on why the Triforce was destoryed, so the tale will be as specific to that as possible.

Second, Hilda's history lesson shows that Lorule was called Lorule before the destruction of the Triforce. If Lorule and Hyrule share a history right up until a specific point where they split, which this theory suggests is roughly the time the Triforce is destoryed, then how could Lorule have a different name? What would be the reason for changing it?

This is something I forgot to add in my theory so thanks for pointing it out. I actually looked for several translations for the word "lo" and it's possible secret meaning. However, even though I found some decent meanings, it just felt too forced. So basically, I'm not gonna try and fit that into here; I want to make this theory simple, easy to understand and within the realm of the series. Anyway, I think the explanation for the term "Lorule" is because of its demise and to simply play on the old term "Hyrule" - which implies it's high and mighty. Maybe it was a term that was adopted after several years. Hyrule isn't a fitting term for the world now that's for sure. Hyrule was created by the Goddesses and they're only connection to them was the Triforce, but they destoryed that and thus got rid their only connection to their makers. I think it was only fitting that they renamed the Kingdom.

Anyway, about how Hilda reference Lorule beforehand... I did notice this, but think of it like this: when you refer to something from the past you don't tend to use old terms and such. If I was talking about Serbia and it's past then I would use the term Serbia instead of its former name, Yugoslavia.

Why would it have different symbolism? We see an image of an upside-down golden Triforce right before the blackened one you used as evidence. You suggested that the upside-down position was a method to show the power was gone, but it is shown clearly that it was already like that when it still existed. Furthermore, Hilda's royal staff has a Triforce motiff, again, featuring upside-down triangles. Why would the Lorule royal family honour an object that no longer exists? The staff must predate the Triforce's destruction. Also, when Lorule's Triforce is returned at the end of the game, it is upside-down, which doesn't fit with the position representing its absence. It's much more likely that Lorule's Triforce was always upside-down and that its destruction had nothing to do with the way it is depicted.

I think it's a given that the gap between the Triforce and it's demise was around the thousand years give or take, or more specifically, 500-1000 years. We know this estimation since the Imprisoning War is implied to take place a long time before the events of A Link to the Past since in this time the bloodline of the Knights diminished to the point there was only one left, Link. Add this onto the confirmation that A Link Between Worlds was stated to take places "centuries after" it's spiritual prequel then I think around a 1000 years is a good estimation.

What does have to do with what you said though? Well, if I'm correct, you're implying that if what I'm saying is true then Lorule should still be called Hyrule and they should be worshipping the correct Triforce? However, I think--after this extended period of time--people still worshipped the Triforce... just in a different way. They now wanted to show symbolism of its destruction (hence it being upside-down). A thousand years is a long period of time, which is certainly enough to rebuild several cultures and kingdoms alike. I think it's perfectly plausible that Hilda was passed down the new symbol of worship within the lineage of the Lorule Royal Family and not a past, old relic. The symbol is not a sign of devotion; it's more so to do with remembrance and sympathy of its loss.

Third, when Hilda takes Link and Zelda into Lorule's Sacred Realm, she shows them the crack in the slab and explains that Yuga used this crack to access Hyrule. If Lorule is another result of a split, then it should be running parallel to not just the Hero Defeated Hyrule of A Link Between Worlds, but the Child Hyrule (of Twilight Princess), and the Adult Hyrule (of The Wind Waker) as well. Yet Lorule only connects to the one parallel world. This suggests a strong connection between Lorule and the Hero Defeated Hyrule specifically; if it was just another version of Hyrule then for what reason would it not connect to the other Hyrules as well?

Well to explain that crack we have to enter a completely different theory altogether, and it is one I do intend to work on in the future. There must be a reason why these two worlds were meant to meet, maybe it was destiny or a devilish force intending for the destruction of Hyrule itself.

 

[Cfrock]

What she states is very brief and quite ambiguous, so it's kind of hard for me to work with. I'm sure there is more to the tale than meets the eye; she was just giving Link the small details...
So [people seeking the Triforce going to the Sacred Realm] took place towards the end of the Imprisoning War

The prologue to A Link to the Past is just as brief and yet it makes it absolutely clear that Ganon invaded from the Dark World with an army of monsters. It's not just a simple detail of The Imprisoning War, it's the entire war. Any brief or vague history of that event would focus on the evil from another realm, not on regular people getting violent with each other (something which is entirely absent from Hyrule's history of the event, I might add). The fact that Hilda doesn't even slightly allude to the events of The Imprisoning War strongly suggests that it never happened in Lorule's past. This is actually backed up by the fact that she never mentions it in her brief account, since it is literally the only detail of The Imprisoning War.

The quote you use from the Hyrule Historia is pretty much what is included in the prologue to A Link to the Past. The events that quote describe do not happen "towards the end of The Imprisoning War" as you claim, they are precursorary events that lead to it. A Link to the Past makes it clear that those people ventured into the Sacred Realm seeking the Triforce but succumbed to Ganon's power and became his minions. After an unspecified period of time, Ganon's forces began to flow into Hyrule, causing an event known as The Imprisoning War, when the Knights of Hyrule defended the Seven Sages as they sealed the Sacred Realm. The war happened after the people seeking the Triforce failed to return. You've attributed a false context to that quote.

Hyrule was created by the Goddesses and they're only connection to them was the Triforce, but they destoryed that and thus got rid their only connection to their makers. I think it was only fitting that they renamed the Kingdom.

So what you're saying is that they changed the name of the kingdom because they destroyed the Triforce. What I am saying is that in-game quotes show that the kingdom was known as Lorule before the Triforce was destroyed, which contradicts your claim. The destruction of the Triforce couldn't be the cause of the name change if the name was already Lorule. Hilda says it was Lorule's Triforce that the people of Lorule destroyed, and she never mentions a name change in her history of the event either. Seeing as how that speech centres on the consequences of destroying the Triforce, it's precisely the kind of detail she would have mentioned.

when you refer to something from the past you don't tend to use old terms and such. If I was talking about Serbia and it's past then I would use the term Serbia instead of its former name, Yugoslavia.

You might but history actually doesn't. When talking about to he build up to World War II people still say that the Sudetenland is part of Czechslovakia, not the Czech Republic and Slovakia, which they are today. When talking about the Napoleonic Wars people still say Prussia, Bavaria, and Hanover, not Germany which they are today. When talking about Caeser's conquests people still say that he invaded Gaul, not France. The custom is very much to use the name that applied during the history you are describing, not the modern name. So when Hilda refers to the kingdom prior to the destruction of the Triforce as Lorule it's most likely because the kingdom was called Lorule at that time.

However, I think--after this extended period of time--people still worshipped the Triforce... just in a different way. They now wanted to show symbolism of its destruction (hence it being upside-down).

Again, my entire point was that the symbolism of the upside-down Triforce is present before the destruction. The very evidence you used to establish the claim about the symbolism shows that. As for the staff, consider that every depiction of the Lorule Triforce after it was destroyed shows it as black. Yet the royal staff is gold. If it was created to express regret then it only makes sense for it to be black, too. And there's still the matter that Lorule's Triforce is upside-down when it actually exists again at the end of the game. If you consider what we see in the game then the only symbolic difference to show the Triforce existing and not existing is the colour, not the orientation.

The crack in the Sacred Realm is not easily explained but it shouldn't be dismissed as a separate theory. It still relates to this one because it can help determine what Lorule is and how it relates to the other worlds, which is what this theory is all about. Looking at it in more detail can only bring new insight that will be important in future.

 

[Justac00lguy]

The prologue to A Link to the Past is just as brief and yet it makes it absolutely clear that Ganon invaded from the Dark World with an army of monsters. It's not just a simple detail of The Imprisoning War, it's the entire war. Any brief or vague history of that event would focus on the evil from another realm, not on regular people getting violent with each other (something which is entirely absent from Hyrule's history of the event, I might add). The fact that Hilda doesn't even slightly allude to the events of The Imprisoning War strongly suggests that it never happened in Lorule's past. This is actually backed up by the fact that she never mentions it in her brief account, since it is literally the only detail of The Imprisoning War.

The whole prologue of A Link to the Past is heavily detailed in terms of what we usually get (one or two lines). Hilda describes a near identical event. The people of Hyrule found out about the whereabouts of the Triforce -> they proceed to go after its power -> a war eventually breaks out. It's too damn similar too dismiss.

Plus Ganon never invaded; it was his minions. The only reason Ganon was mentioned was because it was in relation to what happened in A Link to the Past. That game was focused around Ganon. Lorule, in my theory, had a completely different outcome. Plus you have to factor in time and the fact that history gets misconstrued. Hilda was simply stating the outline of the war which lead to the destruction of the Triforce.

The quote you use from the Hyrule Historia is pretty much what is included in the prologue to A Link to the Past. The events that quote describe do not happen "towards the end of The Imprisoning War" as you claim, they are precursorary events that lead to it. A Link to the Past makes it clear that those people ventured into the Sacred Realm seeking the Triforce but succumbed to Ganon's power and became his minions. After an unspecified period of time, Ganon's forces began to flow into Hyrule, causing an event known as The Imprisoning War, when the Knights of Hyrule defended the Seven Sages as they sealed the Sacred Realm. The war happened after the people seeking the Triforce failed to return. You've attributed a false context to that quote.

I simply was referring to Lorule's "supposed" Imprisoning War (which is the only term I could give it). I fully know what happens in the Imprisoning War. As I said, the this would be towards the end result of Lorule's version, hypothetically speaking.

So what you're saying is that they changed the name of the kingdom because they destroyed the Triforce. What I am saying is that in-game quotes show that the kingdom was known as Lorule before the Triforce was destroyed, which contradicts your claim. The destruction of the Triforce couldn't be the cause of the name change if the name was already Lorule. Hilda says it was Lorule's Triforce that the people of Lorule destroyed, and she never mentions a name change in her history of the event either. Seeing as how that speech centres on the consequences of destroying the Triforce, it's precisely the kind of detail she would have mentioned.

You might but history actually doesn't. When talking about to he build up to World War II people still say that the Sudetenland is part of Czechslovakia, not the Czech Republic and Slovakia, which they are today. When talking about the Napoleonic Wars people still say Prussia, Bavaria, and Hanover, not Germany which they are today. When talking about Caeser's conquests people still say that he invaded Gaul, not France. The custom is very much to use the name that applied during the history you are describing, not the modern name. So when Hilda refers to the kingdom prior to the destruction of the Triforce as Lorule it's most likely because the kingdom was called Lorule at that time.

Though she isn't speaking from that perspective. She's speaking from the present "Lorule was once.... " - this refers to the Lorule of the present and the following statement after the ellipses would refer to its past. Hypothetically speaking again--if Lorule was once Hyrule--would it make sense for her to randomly state at the beginning of her tale: "Hyrule was once...."? Well not really because then we have no idea what she's going on about.

Again, my entire point was that the symbolism of the upside-down Triforce is present before the destruction. The very evidence you used to establish the claim about the symbolism shows that. As for the staff, consider that every depiction of the Lorule Triforce after it was destroyed shows it as black. Yet the royal staff is gold. If it was created to express regret then it only makes sense for it to be black, too. And there's still the matter that Lorule's Triforce is upside-down when it actually exists again at the end of the game. If you consider what we see in the game then the only symbolic difference to show the Triforce existing and not existing is the colour, not the orientation.

There is no evidence of pre-destruction Lorule. The painting adaptation of Lorule's War is post what happened. My whole point was centered around the entire scene as--by inverting the Triforce--it was there intention to show the symbolism of the relic's demise.

The ending scene stumps me to me some extent; it's the only thing I can't quite explain.

The crack in the Sacred Realm is not easily explained but it shouldn't be dismissed as a separate theory. It still relates to this one because it can help determine what Lorule is and how it relates to the other worlds, which is what this theory is all about. Looking at it in more detail can only bring new insight that will be important in future.

Oh no I'm not dismissing it. In fact I think it plays an integral role in this theory. However, it's such a big mystery that I would probably have to address it in another theory.

 

[r2d93]

This is something that stumped me but I think I've finally found an explanation.

If I'm making a case for Lorule was once Hyrule during the Imprisoning War then I guess Ganon would still be sealed within the Sacred Realm; however I think different. For one, during this war Ganon was trying to escape, but the Knights of Hyrule found a solution: sealing the Sacred Realm - now the Dark World. Now, if my theory is correct, then this never happened in Lorule's timeline. Instead, the Sages (or Gods) decided to just completely get rid of the Triforce.

This would mean that they never actually sealed the Sacred Realm and instead the evils of the Realm (Dark World) escaped and caused havoc among Hyrule eventually leading to what we now know as Lorule - an alternate path of the Hyrule: The Defeated Timeline.

Now Ganon--much like the other holders of the Triforce--could not wield their specific piece due no Triforce being present. This would leave Ganon, essentially, powerless. Remember he transforms into his Demon King Ganon form due to the Triforce of Power (Ocarina of Time). However, with no Triforce piece he would simply transform back into his normal state or even worse, die. Now how may he have died? Well remember we defeated Ganondorf previously within his tower? It was only due to his sacred power that he was able to survive (this was also the same case with his execution in Twilight Princess).

Now the possibility of him being dead still doesn't explain where he is in A Link Between Worlds as we know from experience that Ganon(dorf) can return despite whatever fate he meets. This is where Yuga comes into play. Now originally I didn't think that Yuga was Ganon's Lorule counterpart, but it could actually make sense and make this theory quite a bit stronger at the same time. So Ganon--after the destruction of the golden relic--was without the power of the Triforce - now disguised as Yuga (to become close to Hilda), he formulates a plan to travel to a world where Ganon is still present with the Triforce of Power. It explains how Yuga knew where to find Ganon and how he knew how to resurrect him. It all fits into place now. Yuga fused with his alternate self to return to his original, powerful state.

Ahhh a good explanation indeed. This does believably answer the question, bravo :yes:

However, one more question. according to Hilda, it was her ancestors who destroyed their Triforce (which means we can probably assume it wasn't the Gods. Could be the sages still.)
If this is so, and if Ganon was in the Sacred Realm (Dark World) with the Triforce in his possession, how did Hilda's ancestors manage to get the Triforce and destroy it if it's 1. In the sacred realm on the other side of the war, and 2. in Ganon's possession?

 

[Cfrock]

The whole prologue of A Link to the Past is heavily detailed in terms of what we usually get (one or two lines). Hilda describes a near identical event. The people of Hyrule found out about the whereabouts of the Triforce -> they proceed to go after its power -> a war eventually breaks out. It's too damn similar too dismiss.

The prologue to A Link to the Past totally ignores all but the most important details, the same way Hilda's speech does. It's not a "heavily detailed" version of the same story, it just describes a completely different event. You're saying that these backstories are similar when they just aren't in the least. For Hyrule, we understand that the Triforce was in the Sacred Realm, people went to go find it, they eventually returned as monsters, and the Sages sealed it up. For Lorule, we understand that the Triforce was in the kingdom, people fought civil wars over it, they eventually destroyed it to stop the fighting. How are they similar? The Triforces are in different places, the people do different things to acquire them, and there are completely different outcomes. There's not a single reason to think for one second that Hilda is describing the same event that is described in A Link to the Past.

A Link to the Past does describe wars fought over the Triforce in Hyrule, but it is explained that those wars led to it being sealed in the Sacred Realm. After that, people tried to find it, with only Ganon being successful. This is also explained inA Link Between Worlds itself. At some point down the line, The Imprisoning War happens to stop evil taking over Hyrule. If you really want events that are very similar in the histories of Hyrule and Lorule, that's it, not The Imprisoning War. The events leading to Hyrule sealing the Triforce away and Lorule destorying it are similar and it would make a lot more sense for that to be the source of your split. There is just no evidence that The Imprisoning War ever happened in Lorule's history.

I simply was referring to Lorule's "supposed" Imprisoning War (which is the only term I could give it). I fully know what happens in the Imprisoning War. As I said, the this would be towards the end result of Lorule's version, hypothetically speaking.

This makes no sense. Assuming Lorule even had an Imprisoning War, how could you have people enter the Sacred Realm to find the Triforce towards the end? Lorule never sealed their Triforce in the Sacred Realm, they just destoryed it. The whole point is that they never sealed it away so it would be impossible for people to go searching for it in the Sacred Realm.

Though she isn't speaking from that perspective. She's speaking from the present "Lorule was once.... "

"Long ago, Lorule possessed a sacred golden treasure."
"Many sought to control the Triforce, plunging Lorule into endless war."
"Chaos has since reigned in Lorule."

She never says "Lorule was once...". She's speaking in past tense which strongly suggests the kingdom was called Lorule prior to the destruction of the Triforce. It's the same way you would say, "Long ago, Alexander the Great went to war with Persia, which is now modern Iran." You don't say, "Long ago, Iran was called Persia, and Alexander the Great went to war with that country." You use the name a place had at the time being described and if the name has changed since then you say so. Hilda never says so and her language suggests the name has always been Lorule.

Hypothetically speaking again--if Lorule was once Hyrule--would it make sense for her to randomly state at the beginning of her tale: "Hyrule was once...."? Well not really because then we have no idea what she's going on about.

No, but it would make perfect sense for her to say, "Long ago, when it was still named Hyrule, Lorule possessed...". In half a breath she would clear up the confusion and give us all a greater understanding of the history. Renaming the kingdom would be a major consequence of their actions and to leave it out of a story about those consequences, when it would take a short sentence at the start of the speech to explain the context, suggests that it never happened.

My whole point was centered around the entire scene as--by inverting the Triforce--it was there intention to show the symbolism of the relic's demise.

That scene also shows the Triforce 'sinking' behind the castle once it is destroyed. Surely that is a stronger symbol for its destruction than just turning it upside-down. Besides, that still doesn't explain the colour of the staff or the fact that the Triforce is shown to be upside-down anyway when it comes back. And then there's the slab in the Sacred Realm, which depicts the upside-down Triforce as being black. Once again, the only difference between the actual Lorule Triforce and the representations of it are the colour, not the position. I really don't think the position of the Triforce has any significance whatsoever and is just done to distinguish Lorule's Triforce from Hyrule's. The same way the kingdoms' names are 'opposites' of each other, so too are their Triforces.

There's one more thing which doesn't fit for me and that's Hilda's comments about Hyrule's Triforce:

"We NEED a Triforce. So imagine my surprise when I learned of the existence of another one.
Yours.
A Triforce based on such virtues as Power, Wisdom and Courage."

This strongly suggests that Lorule's Triforce was based on different virtues. What they are isn't important. What is important is how that doesn't make sense. The Triforce in all three timelines is based on those three virtues. This is because they are all the result of a split, they are all continuations of the same world, with the same Triforce. If Lorule is just another one of these continuations of Hyrule, as you claim, then it should have the same Triforce, based on the same virtues. But Hilda's comment implies that it didn't. What she says is that Hyrule's Triforce is based on Power, Wisdom, and Courage, and that it is a different Triforce to Lorule's own. If all Triforces were the same, she would have no reason to list the virtues.

It's not just the name of the kingdom and the position of the Triforce that are different, its the nature of the Triforce itself as well. Why would Lorule's be based on different virtues? How could it be if Lorule is just another continuation of Hyrule? All I see in this theory are questions and not answers.

 

[Justac00lguy]

The prologue to A Link to the Past totally ignores all but the most important details, the same way Hilda's speech does. It's not a "heavily detailed" version of the same story, it just describes a completely different event. You're saying that these backstories are similar when they just aren't in the least. For Hyrule, we understand that the Triforce was in the Sacred Realm, people went to go find it, they eventually returned as monsters, and the Sages sealed it up. For Lorule, we understand that the Triforce was in the kingdom, people fought civil wars over it, they eventually destroyed it to stop the fighting.

I think you're ignoring the similarities. The Imprisoning War is basically the same. Maybe peoples lusting after the Triforce and to get to the Triforce they need to get to the Sacred Realm. Like Lorule's War, people's lust of the Triforce led to a war. You're main argument has something to do with no mention of Ganon, right? Well Ganon wasn't even involved in the war. If this war had a different outcome, which is what I'm suggesting, then it's redundant to even mention Ganon as his influence doesn't need to be explained as he isn't the source of evil or even the main vocal point anymore. The main vocal point is the destruction of the Triforce and that's what Hilda is explaining. She doesn't have to mention Ganon; she mentions what started the event, what happened in the event (a war) and how it ended. If you look at the structure of both events then they are similar. I honestly don't know how you can deny that.

How are they similar? The Triforces are in different places, the people do different things to acquire them, and there are completely different outcomes. There's not a single reason to think for one second that Hilda is describing the same event that is described in A Link to the Past.

The Triforces are in different places? Where did you get that from? Lorule's Triforce returns to its original resting place during the ending: it's version of the Sacred Realm. Also, how did people do different things aquire them? The war started for lust for power, which is exactly how the Imprisoning War played out.

A Link to the Past does describe wars fought over the Triforce in Hyrule, but it is explained that those wars led to it being sealed in the Sacred Realm. After that, people tried to find it, with only Ganon being successful. This is also explained inA Link Between Worlds itself. At some point down the line, The Imprisoning War happens to stop evil taking over Hyrule. If you really want events that are very similar in the histories of Hyrule and Lorule, that's it, not The Imprisoning War. The events leading to Hyrule sealing the Triforce away and Lorule destorying it are similar and it would make a lot more sense for that to be the source of your split. There is just no evidence that The Imprisoning War ever happened in Lorule's history.

This is how is basically what happened between the end of Ocarina of Time and the beginning of A Link to the Past.

Ganon acquired the full Triforce (Ocarina of Time alternate ending) -> The present Sages sealed him within the Sacred Realm as it was the only way to stop him -> This transformed the realm itself (now the Dark World) -> People eventually found out about the Triforce and sought after its location -> The poeple who entered the Sacred Realm never returned and they were instead turned into monsters -> The cursed beings then waged war on Hyrule and the Knights fought back -> This lead the Sages to seal the realms once and for all, thus "Imprisoning" them.

The only war of the Triforce before this was the Hyrulean Civil War and a war known as the "Era of Chaos" . I may have misunderstood what you were saying, but I believe your making a case for a war over the Triforce happening just before the Imprisoning War itself?

"Long ago, Lorule possessed a sacred golden treasure."
"Many sought to control the Triforce, plunging Lorule into endless war."
"Chaos has since reigned in Lorule."

She never says "Lorule was once...". She's speaking in past tense which strongly suggests the kingdom was called Lorule prior to the destruction of the Triforce. It's the same way you would say, "Long ago, Alexander the Great went to war with Persia, which is now modern Iran." You don't say, "Long ago, Iran was called Persia, and Alexander the Great went to war with that country." You use the name a place had at the time being described and if the name has changed since then you say so. Hilda never says so and her language suggests the name has always been Lorule.

Think of it like this... (and I will go off on a hypothetical tangent here) Let's say Termina was once Hyrule, but you had no idea. If someone was to say "Hyrule used to have a kingdom...." while referring to Termina then you, the player, would have absolutely no idea what the hell is going on. You have to relate to the present to compare it to the past.

My quote was more so referring to something Hilda had previously said (not necessarily a direct quote as it was more so an example); however, I'll use the actual quotes you provided:

"Long ago, Lorule possessed a sacred golden treasure." - She's referring to the past, yes, but it needs to be in the relation to the present in order for it make sense. Let's say Lorule is Hyrule, but Link has no idea of this.... would this make sense: "Long ago, Hyrule possessed a sacred golden treasure"? Well it wouldn't because now we don't know what world she's referring to. When you talk about Britain's past and you used an older term then the person who you were directly speaking to would have no idea - thus confusing things.

No, but it would make perfect sense for her to say, "Long ago, when it was still named Hyrule, Lorule possessed...". In half a breath she would clear up the confusion and give us all a greater understanding of the history. Renaming the kingdom would be a major consequence of their actions and to leave it out of a story about those consequences, when it would take a short sentence at the start of the speech to explain the context, suggests that it never happened.

While you are very correct here, you have to remember this is just a theory and like all theories there will be inconsistencies. If Hilda did say that, then there would be no discussion here as her statement alone would validate that Lorule's origins. My theory is based on a complete mystery that most likely isn't true as Nintendo probably didn't intend for it. I'm just trying to piece together why I think it is.

That scene also shows the Triforce 'sinking' behind the castle once it is destroyed. Surely that is a stronger symbol for its destruction than just turning it upside-down. Besides, that still doesn't explain the colour of the staff or the fact that the Triforce is shown to be upside-down anyway when it comes back. And then there's the slab in the Sacred Realm, which depicts the upside-down Triforce as being black. Once again, the only difference between the actual Lorule Triforce and the representations of it are the colour, not the position. I really don't think the position of the Triforce has any significance whatsoever and is just done to distinguish Lorule's Triforce from Hyrule's. The same way the kingdoms' names are 'opposites' of each other, so too are their Triforces.

Yeah I too think of it as a separation between kingdoms. Well on the surface it seems like that, but I tried to find a deepen meaning. If we relate real world dimension theories to the context of Zelda's alternate worlds then it makes no sense that you have a completely different world that's just an "opposite world". This world would have had to, at some point, connect to it's counterpart. Now, I could easily say that Lorule was once Hyrule long ago, but that causes more inconsistencies as it wouldn't explain how the present land of Lorule is drastically similar to that of present Hyrule. If Lorule was once Hyrule long ago, and it had a different outcome, then chances are that it would look drastically different. However, if not going to enter geographical discussion as it's just so hard to do within this series.

Anyway, yeah the Triforce sinking into the depths of Lorule was the biggest symbol of all - it's why I referred to it in my OP. Though I just think that whole scene is meant to capture the dark demise of the Triforce. Remember the Triforce isn't a shadowy, dark colour as some suggested. It's very much similar to Hyrule's own, golden. The people of Lorule adopted that colour as symbolism, much like how they inverted the Triforce as well.

There's one more thing which doesn't fit for me and that's Hilda's comments about Hyrule's Triforce:

"We NEED a Triforce. So imagine my surprise when I learned of the existence of another one.
Yours.
A Triforce based on such virtues as Power, Wisdom and Courage."

This strongly suggests that Lorule's Triforce was based on different virtues. What they are isn't important. What is important is how that doesn't make sense. The Triforce in all three timelines is based on those three virtues. This is because they are all the result of a split, they are all continuations of the same world, with the same Triforce. If Lorule is just another one of these continuations of Hyrule, as you claim, then it should have the same Triforce, based on the same virtues. But Hilda's comment implies that it didn't. What she says is that Hyrule's Triforce is based on Power, Wisdom, and Courage, and that it is a different Triforce to Lorule's own. If all Triforces were the same, she would have no reason to list the virtues.

Remember Hilda is completely oblivious to her own Triforce; she only knows that it was destroyed, which is why the tale is so brief to begin with. I too thought Lorule's Triforce was based on different virtues. I remember someone suggested it was based on the flames that Twinrova lit in the Oracles (Sorrow, Destruction and Despair). However, Power; Wisdom; and Courage perfectly make sense for a balance of power. If there are different virtues then this would mean that there are different gods, which goes into deeper discussion. How can there be two creations of the universe? The beginning of time within the series started with them same gods. It's hard to make a case for there being an alternate creation of time itself.

 

[Count SymphoniC]

Okay guys it really seems like a good theory and it seems to be solid and well backed up, until I noticed a couple of major problems with it.

Now, it looks like someone else already pointed this out, but I'm going to emphasize it anyways. When Lorule's Triforce is restored at the end, it's still upside down and it's no longer a dead Triforce. So the Triforce being pointed downwards shouldn't necessarily be considered symbolic within the context of the story, however it could still be considered symbolic by the intentions of Nintendo, just not within the story. So in other words, it's symbolic significance was probably meant to be implied as an artistic device rather than within the storyline. If this were Hyrule and that was Hyrule's Triforce, it would have been restored in it's original direction, but it wasn't, and there really is no clear counter to this argument. This alone, sadly, compromises the entire theory. So Lorule must be it's own world.

Anyway, speaking of Demise, what about his sword and the same relic being shown? Well I think it was Demise's true intentions to destroy the Triforce entirely. Demise seemed jealous of the Gods; his hatred for them and Hyrule itself may have lead to his overall intentions in Skyward Sword - I don't think he would ever want to support one of the God's creations.

This is interesting. Although if that were true, then Ganon would've destroyed the Triforce himself rather than wishing for the Golden Land. This also compromises that theory and lends more support to the theory that Demise's origins may very well be from Lorule.

We need to remember that the main source for ALBW's inspiration is ALTTP. One thing that hasn't changed is the "mirrored worlds" concept and although the Dark World =/= Lorule, Lorule is a mirrored Hyrule. The Triforces of both worlds mirror each other and the story does seem to imply that both worlds share a symbiotic relationship, one in which one cannot survive without the other. Or perhaps the Goddesses created both worlds so that one may be a failsafe if something happens to the other? :sahasrahla:

 

[snakeoiltanker]

Second, Hilda's history lesson shows that Lorule was called Lorule before the destruction of the Triforce. If Lorule and Hyrule share a history right up until a specific point where they split, which this theory suggests is roughly the time the Triforce is destoryed, then how could Lorule have a different name? What would be the reason for changing it? Why would it have different symbolism? We see an image of an upside-down golden Triforce right before the blackened one you used as evidence. You suggested that the upside-down position was a method to show the power was gone, but it is shown clearly that it was already like that when it still existed. Furthermore, Hilda's royal staff has a Triforce motiff, again, featuring upside-down triangles. Why would the Lorule royal family honour an object that no longer exists? The staff must predate the Triforce's destruction. Also, when Lorule's Triforce is returned at the end of the game, it is upside-down, which doesn't fit with the position representing its absence. It's much more likely that Lorule's Triforce was always upside-down and that its destruction had nothing to do with the way it is depicted.

I needed to reply to this before i forgot, so sorry if it has been said but many times in history, after the fall of a city of Kingdom, the name will be change, still resembling its former name and ways of life, the "new Establishment" may have reworked the new civilization as much as religious, and family crest symbols painted, architecture still representing the root of the old ways of their tribe, like the "dark world" looking almost no different from what it did last time.

You bring up great point but this argument does not debunk JC theory at all. No disrespect what so ever!

What does have to do with what you said though? Well, if I'm correct, you're implying that if what I'm saying is true then Lorule should still be called Hyrule and they should be worshipping the correct Triforce? However, I think--after this extended period of time--people still worshipped the Triforce... just in a different way. They now wanted to show symbolism of its destruction (hence it being upside-down). A thousand years is a long period of time, which is certainly enough to rebuild several cultures and kingdoms alike. I think it's perfectly plausible that Hilda was passed down the new symbol of worship within the lineage of the Lorule Royal Family and not a past, old relic. The symbol is not a sign of devotion; it's more so to do with remembrance and sympathy of its loss.

there it is i finally read it, i figured JC already thought of that, and approached it like i would have! only with more Ingame/Lore facts, as always!

 

[Wolf Sage]

Gee, based on your theory, Hilda and her cohorts sure went out of their way to seek the return of their dimension's supposedly low to no-powered triforce. Why would they waste their time and resources to do so? Plot hole? Also, they wanted to symbolize its destruction and/or loss of power, so they physically turned it upside-down? Umm... Not sure if that's possible without divine intervention.

 

[Collbard]

My biggest problem is that this proposed scenario is completely based on a hypothetical scenario (that being, the parallel universe) while I think there are other, more supported, explanations for Lorule (namely, the one in this thread: http://zeldadungeon.net/forum/showthread.php?t=47133) that involve less stretches of the imagination. I think that to ignore the similarities between the Dark World and Lorule is a mistake.

While defending your theory you seem to be contradicting yourself about when the decision was made to destroy the Triforce. During the Imprisoning War, the Triforce was in the Dark World. So, it is impossible that the Lorule war would have occurred as an alternate outcome of the Imprisoning War. It would have occurred earlier. This is where the real confusion sets in.

The paintings in aLBW illustrate the following: 1.The Triforce was in Hyrule. 2.The Triforce was sealed in the Sacred Realm because of war. 3.Ganon broke into the Sacred Realm which turned it into the Dark World. 4.Ganon's forces attacked Hyrule and the Imprisoning War happened, and 5.Ganon was sealed.

Your theory (if I understand correctly) claims that instead of #2 happening, in this alternate universe the Triforce was destroyed. If that is the case, then Ganon never breaks into the Sacred Realm, and there is no Imprisoning War. However, in aLttP, the Triforce already existed in the Sacred Realm. No one needed to put it there, because that is just where it was. It is said to have been placed there by the gods. In that case, the Triforce never existed in Hyrule, thus it would not have been possible for it to be destroyed. Therefore, Lorule could never have been formed.

Now, I'm not sure if Hyrule Historia clarifies this any. I believe that OoT shares the same story as aLttP. It is possible that Skyward Sword contradicts that story by having the Triforce exist in Skyloft (But, is it possible that Skyloft is part of the Sacred Realm? I think that's probably an entirely different topic.)

So again, your theory relies on history legend being correct rather than another history. I don't know if we can say for certain that one is right and one is wrong. Also, I think there is too much evidence that ties Lorule to the Dark World.

There is one last thing that bothers me about your theory, and I think this might be my strongest criticism. You mentioned it, but I don't think you explained it well, so maybe we can have another go at it. Assuming your theory is correct, it doesn't make sense to me that Yuga is able to summon Ganon. Again, assuming your theory is correct, in the Lorule timeline, Ganon would never have appeared. The Triforce would have been destroyed and Ganondorf never would have entered the Sacred Realm. No one would have because there would have been no need to. In the Hyrule timeline, Ganon was sealed inside of the Sacred Realm. So, it seems like quite a stretch that Yuga would have been able to summon Ganon from a completely alternate universe. For that matter, Yuga, nor anyone in Lorule, would even know who Ganon is.