The Queen of Hyrule and the Origins of Ganondorf (Theory)

[Pen]

See, that's where it's a cop out though and I dislike the notion. If you know you are going to die in a specific battle, why not just neglect to engage in that battle? If he was omnipresent surely he could do better, which makes me think he didn't literally conquer time.

It's a fair point, but why would they state that he did conquer time if he didn't?

 

[Dizzi]

He didnt avoid the battle cuz he wanted to be macho...

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

It's a fair point, but why would they state that he did conquer time if he didn't?

In that post from months back I planned to look into the Japanese translation of that text by Fi, but forgot, lol. There are numerous inconsistencies between Japanese and English translations of game dialogue with this series, and I've always thought this could be an instance of one of them.

@Pen Here is the result:

"A totally overwhelming existence which has overcome Time itself and is the origin of the ever-so-present 'Demons'..."

So there isn't much of a difference between this translation and the English dialogue. But, I'll at least say this - Fi attributes this info to legends, and as she herself basically says earlier in the game, history can be skewed. Also, he did conquer time in a sense. The simple fact that he has been resurrected in the past, which is contrary to written history is enough for that claim to be valid. We're probably just applying it to a grander scale than its intended for.

 

[Pen]

@Pen Here is the result:


So there isn't much of a difference between this translation and the English dialogue. But, I'll at least say this - Fi attributes this info to legends, and as she herself basically says earlier in the game, history can be skewed. Also, he did conquer time in a sense. The simple fact that he has been resurrected in the past, which is contrary to written history is enough for that claim to be valid. We're probably just applying it to a grander scale than its intended for.

Good point. I suppose I just wanted his powers to be crazier than they really are.

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

Good point. I suppose I just wanted his powers to be crazier than they really are.

Same, but he only gets a small amount of screen time. They really dropped the ball on giving him proper development to make that hate curse really meaningful. It would've worked way better if Demise was actually built up as a character and seen as more of a threat, rather than us beating up his left over energy by clipping his toenails.

 

[Jirohnagi]

I'd actually like to add, that ever since Skyward Sword decided to drop that dumb bombshell on us, I was sort of always under the impression that there was some sort of active intention of "creating" the perfect host for Demise's hatred. Twinrova being Ganondorf's surrogate (I'm not really gonna elaborate on how that can be interpreted because either idea in that regard could work, I suppose), kind of suggests there was some carefully thought out selection in corrupting him through his very nature. That is, of course, if they really were associated with the tribe of evil. His possession of magic was likely deliberate on behalf of that party, though. But we don't get to see this stuff so that's my shot in the dark anyway.

What really gets to me about the whole "Twinrova is a surrogate" is that it's literally two witch twins who can fuse into one, so are they each carrying Ganondorf? Or is it only when they Meld together? I'd say That the G-man was a careful crafting of theirs, they found out they were the big preggo then started using magic to manipulate him into becoming the vessel for Demises rage, then again maybe he was just born that way a child born of an individual who is dual personalitied and literally split down the middle, between fire n ice to boot is gonna have some major schisming of the soul as it is. In Wind Waker we even see a more human side of him where he claims he covets hyrules wind and this is what led to his crusade.......which kinda points to him only becoming as bad as he became due to the corrupting influence of the Triforce of Power. No denying he sought more power. He already ruled the Gerudo he just got over greedy the bloody pig.

See, that's where it's a cop out though and I dislike the notion. If you know you are going to die in a specific battle, why not just neglect to engage in that battle? If he was omnipresent surely he could do better, which makes me think he didn't literally conquer time.

Paradox issues, the entirety of SS is a big ole paradox, if demise is dead in the past how can he exist to threaten the future which is what sets ghirahim to take zelda from skyloft and initiate the whole thing. If Demise knows he dies in that fight and then doesn't go he no longer knows if he dies in that fight and therefore goes to that fight and so on it becomes a loop. I'd imagine that there'd be some uncertainty right at the very edge of that foresight............ Or maybe he knew he'd one day return and so went into battle knowing that he'd become truly "immortal" forever reborn, if so he'd willingly go into that fight knowing he'd die but being able to return and in some ways more of a "match" for Link granted we don't actually see anything conclusive til OOT where lets face it Ganondorf actually succeeds at Demise's goal of conquering the land.

 

[Ryuu Kage Desu]

See, that's where it's a cop out though and I dislike the notion. If you know you are going to die in a specific battle, why not just neglect to engage in that battle? If he was omnipresent surely he could do better, which makes me think he didn't literally conquer time.

Am I the only one who watches Dr. Who? Fixed points in time, assuming they are a thing, must always happen. It's kinda the premise of the unified Breath of the Wild time-line. It's the bits in between that can be changed.

So, he didn't just know that he was going to be defeated, but knew that there was no way out of it. Therefore, he sets up a curse.

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

Am I the only one who watches Dr. Who? Fixed points in time, assuming they are a thing, must always happen. It's kinda the premise of the unified Breath of the Wild time-line. It's the bits in between that can be changed.

So, he didn't just know that he was going to be defeated, but knew that there was no way out of it. Therefore, he sets up a curse.

Oh I'm aware of the whole concept of predestiny, as a matter of fact I plan to write something out on it and listed my concept in my Blog here on the site.

 

[Ryuu Kage Desu]

To be fair, I wasn't meaning to single you on predestiny, more to the fact that nobody brought it up yet. I'll make sure to look at your blog.

 

[DragonEleven]

When Demise was defeated in the past he was still in the process of being revived/released (hence why he wasn't at full power)... but that process had not been completed (if it had then Zelda would have lost her soul), so it's not much of a stretch to assume that a part of him was still sealed away when the rest of him was destroyed.
This remaining part could then have regenerated over the years, becoming the Imprisoned that Link fights in Skyward Sword's present.

As for Demise's final words, I think they are more of a threat than a curse in themselves... a warning of the actual curse that he already had in place, which I suspect is also how he had "overcome time itself"... which can also refer to obtaining immortality, with his cycle of reincarnation being a type of immortality.

 

[SpiritOfTheHero]

Zelda II: The Adventure of Link proves otherwise. The Princess Zelda that was placed under the sleeping spell was not the same Zelda from the game prior. Link wakes that Zelda up, but there is also still a Princess Zelda ruling the kingdom at the time, so we can assume they can co-exist.

I personally think that Skyward Sword opened up a whole can of worms and messed with the lore somewhat by implicating that Zelda is a mortal reincarnation of the Goddess Hylia, so the previous entries in the series would be discounted. Additionally, the sleeping Zelda was the original reason why every other princess born by the king and queen is named Zelda, in homage to that specific Zelda who was put under a spell.

I never thought of it like Demise's Hatred gets to choose who will embody that hate.

I agree with this statement. From memory, when I last replayed Skyward Sword, Demise foreshadows tormenting those sharing in the blood of the Goddess Hylia and the Spirit of the Hero. So, I think that Demise is actually reincarnated into Ganondorf later on in the timeline as shown in the earlier titles where Ganon appears.

I was sort of always under the impression that there was some sort of active intention of "creating" the perfect host for Demise's hatred.

I think what's likelier is that Demise is or becomes Ganon when he reincarnates. It's hard to outright prove this using the lore provided but Demise does talk about tormenting the descendants of Link and Zelda or specifically, those sharing in the blood of the Goddess and the Spirit of the Hero. So, I think reincarnation is at work here, and we know that Ganon is the arch-nemesis of the Hero Link throughout most of the main games starting from the original Legend of Zelda.

Hard disagree it adds a lot of lore and a great origin story to the series overall.


Well it isn't always a Gerudo if we take Vaati to be the first reincarnation. Perhaps Ganondorfs hatred towards the royal family (out of jealousy: he says in WW that the winds of the gods blew fortune on Hyrule and desert on Gerudo,) and his power over magic made him bind to Demise's curse and he himself is preventing anyone else from being the reincarnation. I'm hoping BOTW 2 gives some kind of answers.

I think it's just reincarnation and that Demise becomes Ganon(dorf) later in the chronological canon.

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

I think what's likelier is that Demise is or becomes Ganon when he reincarnates.

I disagree, Demise and Ganondorf are entirely different people. It isn't Demise who is reincarnating, just his hatred.

 

[SpiritOfTheHero]

The problem we have here is two separate canonicity that contradicts each other. The original Legend of Zelda canon establishes that the name Zelda is an homage to the sleeping Zelda in Zelda 2. Skyward Sword establishes that Zelda is the mortal reincarnation of the Goddess Hylia, so the idea here is that every successive Zelda is reincarnated which is proven dialectally by Demise when he mentions all those who "share in the blood of the Goddes".

Now, if we go by @Spiritual Mask Salesman's comment, then they can co-exist which would disprove my premise of the canonicity being contradictory. As for the Queen of Hyrule, I just think she either dies in childbirth or is just never seen in canon. I think Zelda's royal lineage is patriarchal since it's always the King of Hyrule that is given political importance in the games. I could be wrong though.

I disagree, Demise and Ganondorf are entirely different people. It isn't Demise who is reincarnating, just his hatred.

I think it's the same being here. Demise talks about tormenting those sharing in the blood of the Goddess and the Spirit of the Hero. How could he do that if it wasn't reincarnation? If his hatred is reincarnating then that introduces some very interesting philosophical themes about the conception of feelings in that universe.

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

I think it's the same being here. Demise talks about tormenting those sharing in the blood of the Goddess and the Spirit of the Hero. How could he do that if it wasn't reincarnation? If his hatred is reincarnating then that introduces some very interesting philosophical themes about the conception of feelings in that universe.

He explicitally states it is his hatred that is reincarnating, not his entire being. Ergo, Ganondorf is not Demise himself reincarnated, rather he shares the same hatred and lust for the Triforce as Demise. I go in depth on my interpretation of the philosophy of the hate curse in this blog entry, so I'll share that here:

https://zeldadungeon.net/forum/threads/concept-the-theory-of-inevitability-part-4-demises-curse-is-simply-a-force-of-nature-and-rudimentary-confirmation-of-the-theory.67256/

It's not my best work, I plan to revise it.

 

[SpiritOfTheHero]

He explicitally states it is his hatred that is reincarnating, not his entire being. Ergo, Ganondorf is not Demise himself reincarnated, rather he shares the same hatred and lust for the Triforce as Demise. I go in depth on my interpretation of the philosophy of the hate curse in this blog entry, so I'll share that here:

https://zeldadungeon.net/forum/threads/concept-the-theory-of-inevitability-part-4-demises-curse-is-simply-a-force-of-nature-and-rudimentary-confirmation-of-the-theory.67256/

It's not my best work, I plan to revise it.

Oh, well, that's something else then. I always pegged them as being the same person. I mean, it's curious that both Demise and Ganondorf have red hair, a striking physical characteristic. What are the odds?

I'll read that blog entry though and get back to you with what I think about it.