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The Imprisoning War Scandal

D

Deku Lord

Guest
-If theorists like myself don't worry about every minute detail, there is nothing to theorize about, and nothing much more interesting than an evening meal to debate about.
Also, we do look at the 'grander scheme', but to get the true grand scheme you must look at the minute details that will bring all the flaws that people who focus on the grand scheme miss.


-That goes back to my point of Nintendo covering it up
 
N

Nathan

Guest
It wasn't outdated; it was a cover up attempt.
So, you’re claiming then that the original version of the game, of which was released in Japan before any other version, or translation, existed, does not hold any sort of Canon over a translated version? Well then, I guess Translations that are "incorrect" have become canon because NOA did them, not the actual mind behind the game (Myiamoto, who doesn't speak English all too well). I am so glad this has been cleared up for me.

Also, have you looked at the pictures? There is no rock-man's hand there. There is easily enough evidence to disprove OoT being the Imprisoning War. Maybe you should read through the article again, paying attention to things like Ganon's knowledge of the triforce. I'm going to use that example for now.
You say plenty of evidence, and all I see is speculation. Just because a picture from the very early 90's does not depict a rock-man's hand does not mean that it isn't possible. As has been stated, they simply were not thought up yet at the time of the picture. It doesn't mean they can't change their minds down the road. That's the beauty of time line theories - each game that comes out can throw all theories for a loop. A picture clearly doesn't make something canon. You want proof? Then why the hell do parts of hyrule between games totally change locations? On top of that, very few maps of hyrule across the games match up. Those maps are just as much "canon" as a picture from the early 90's. Aka, it doesn't mean a whole lot.

-In OoT, Ganon knew where the triforce was and knew how to get there. When he found his way into the Golden Land just before the Imprisoning War, it was "quite by accident." Which brings me to...
He knew where it was? Or, did he just know who DID know where it was... the royal family. (Or so, he thought knew where it was). One could safely argue he attempted kidnap Zelda to force the King to either tell him where the triforce was, or to simply hand it over. Why else is he chasing her out of the castle? Plus, Since Link happened to be there when Ganondorf was chasing her... it would make Ganondorf suspicious of him... and what he knows. Surely, he spied on him and... well... when he pulled the sword he was watching and took advantage. I doubt he actually knew how to get into the Golden Land. In fact, it appears to me it could be by mistake. Could be, is the key word. After all, this is just theorizing.

-Ganon entered the realm BEFORE the Imprisoning War. The knights were instructed to forge the Master Sword to repel the evil, and the majority of the War was spent looking for the hero.
So, I was unaware the War had started yet. So, let’s assume he accidentally stumbled upon Link and got into the Sacred Realm by mistake... well the war had not started yet had it? So... there it is... before the war. Of course, there are other ways to explain it. The knights were instructed to forge a sword - true... but did the sword ever actually get made? I mean, it's fairly difficult for simple "hylians" to create a magic weapon. Oh, and I am fairly certain for 7 years, Zelda was trying to find Link.

-Where are the knights in OoT? They sure weren't fighting to keep Ganon in the Golden Land. He went in, took the Triforce of Power, and left, upon which he slaughtered and imprisoned everybody.
And you know this because you played those 7 years right? So, in no way could they have actually fought to keep Ganondorf in there after noticing the door was open? I am sure Ganondorf was not the only person who noticed the Realm was open, just a thought.

-Ganon only had the Triforce of Power in OoT. During the Imprisoning War, he had the whole freaking thing.
Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. I don't know. There are too many theories surrounding this entire aspect to give a really good response.

And that's just running with one idea. Add the fact that all the sages were human, and it is not physically possible for OoT to be the Imprisoning War. It must be separate, whether Nintendo tries to cover up the real manual or not.
Didn't you already state this at the beginning? Oh well. Nintendo isn't trying to cover up anything. They are not trying to cover up the original version of the AOL manual (Japan) or the original version of any other game manual. However, they could be taking creative freedom to try and get everything pieced together. After all, if there was a definitive time line, it would be very obvious and all theories would no longer exist.

-Now then, about Nintendo's 'creative license', you treat the Big N as if they are supposed to be some kind of God. Nintendo needs to not change the manual of old, because those who remember will argue its case. Regardless of their intent, the races are not there in the Imprisoning War. They are all Hylian, and they can't change that. They need to work around their mistakes instead of overwriting them.
Mistake? According to whom... you? I get what you’re saying: History cannot be rewritten. What happened happened. However, this is not reality. Were talking about a fantasy game that arguably never originally HAD a time line. In fact, it was not even intended to become a series. When the original game was made it was intended as a standalone title. So, I think we can excuse the creators of the games for possibly changing a few things to make everything fit better. After all, they can predict everything their mind is going to cook up a decade later right? Especially when they make the games "out of order" time line wise. It is what it is.

Oh and last I checked, for the Zelda franchise, Nintendo IS a God. After all, it's THEIR game.

-Have you forgotten about his band of thieves who were supposed to follow him? Last I checked, the Gerudo were not following him in, and they were still alive afterwards. Also, if they did by chance make it in, I don't recall the Gerudo being skilled in the Dark Arts.
Proof of this? I don't remember playing those 7 years, do you? Oh, and we know EVERYTHING about EVERY race in the game, right? Who would have thought at the time that Zora's could possibly fly one day?

-Have you forgotten that during the War Ganon was INSIDE THE BLOODY REALM? In OoT, he is NOT, he is OUTSIDE screwing up the rest of Hyrule.
I am so glad you know everything that happened in every waking moment of the War. While there is a lot information and "canon" for the war available, many of it contradicts itself, and some parts you are left wondering. Last I checked, didn't Ganondorf WIN the war? I could be mistaken... but that was my impression. IF that was the case... then would he not have fought OUT of the realm and into Hyrule? I mean, he may have lost... but that was after the hero showed up, I believe. Again, it's been awhile so I could be way off base.

-If they did forge a new sword, where'd it go? Also, the entire War was HERO-LESS, as in NO HERO.
It says they were told to forge a sword, not that it actually happened. I get told to do a lot of things... sometimes it doesn't happen regardless.

-If the back stories are not 100% accurate, then Nintendo cannot have a 100% accurate timeline. If you are arguing all this creative license and inaccuracy crap, then go help out the people who still go for the linear timeline theory; they need the false hope.
They don't have a 100% accurate timeline; hence we are free to have our theories. Yes, I know they "claim", rather under their breath, that they do have an "ultimate" timeline most assume they just have a general idea, no more fluid then the best of the timeline theorists. It took them a good long while to admit that OOT creates a split timeline. I seriously doubt when they made OOT they were thinking "yeah, this is going to cause a split timeline". In fact, that is exactly why it took so long to say it. The fact that the split timeline at OOT makes no literal sense (for reasons I won’t get into) is irrelevant. Myiamoto said the timeline is split. You know what? In 10 years he may say it's not because the games up to that point completely changed the entire timeline.

That’s why we get to theorize instead of being told. Myiamoto, and Nintendo, don't care all too much about the timeline. They just try harder now to make things fit because we demand it, not because it overly concerns them. Story, game play, fun. That is their focus. Making the story fit with everything isn't possible most the time... so they just do their best, or alter history when necessary.

Please try actually thinking about my statements this time around, my time in this thread is becoming very droll, seeing as I am pointing out things you should already know if you're as expert on the War as you act.
You know, I read the entire 2 pages of this and you’re the one coming across as argumentative while Moon is just trying to have a conversation. In fact, your points are only really on a solid base back in 1993. It's been 15 years and crap changed. It happens. I understand you don't like to think Nintendo messes with History in the series... but they do. Deal with it. Creative freedom is something they do use, whether you like it or not.

Err, spam much?

That just proves my point more. If they want to have the timeline they are shooting for, they need to work around mistakes instead of covering them with new mistakes which cause more anger in the community.
Let me ask you: What time line do you think Nintendo IS shooting for? Last I heard, they won’t tell us. In fact, many assume they are trying to piece it together just like we are. The only anger I see is from close minded people that can't accept that events in history are altered for creative purposes. I mean no offense in any of what I am saying... but you just sound like person who refuses to even consider anyone else’s theories because all of yours, in your mind, is 100% Canon.
 
D

Deku Lord

Guest
So, you’re claiming then that the original version of the game, of which was released in Japan before any other version, or translation, existed, does not hold any sort of Canon over a translated version? Well then, I guess Translations that are "incorrect" have become canon because NOA did them, not the actual mind behind the game (Myiamoto, who doesn't speak English all too well). I am so glad this has been cleared up for me.



You say plenty of evidence, and all I see is speculation. Just because a picture from the very early 90's does not depict a rock-man's hand does not mean that it isn't possible. As has been stated, they simply were not thought up yet at the time of the picture. It doesn't mean they can't change their minds down the road. That's the beauty of time line theories - each game that comes out can throw all theories for a loop. A picture clearly doesn't make something canon. You want proof? Then why the hell do parts of hyrule between games totally change locations? On top of that, very few maps of hyrule across the games match up. Those maps are just as much "canon" as a picture from the early 90's. Aka, it doesn't mean a whole lot.



He knew where it was? Or, did he just know who DID know where it was... the royal family. (Or so, he thought knew where it was). One could safely argue he attempted kidnap Zelda to force the King to either tell him where the triforce was, or to simply hand it over. Why else is he chasing her out of the castle? Plus, Since Link happened to be there when Ganondorf was chasing her... it would make Ganondorf suspicious of him... and what he knows. Surely, he spied on him and... well... when he pulled the sword he was watching and took advantage. I doubt he actually knew how to get into the Golden Land. In fact, it appears to me it could be by mistake. Could be, is the key word. After all, this is just theorizing.



So, I was unaware the War had started yet. So, let’s assume he accidentally stumbled upon Link and got into the Sacred Realm by mistake... well the war had not started yet had it? So... there it is... before the war. Of course, there are other ways to explain it. The knights were instructed to forge a sword - true... but did the sword ever actually get made? I mean, it's fairly difficult for simple "hylians" to create a magic weapon. Oh, and I am fairly certain for 7 years, Zelda was trying to find Link.



And you know this because you played those 7 years right? So, in no way could they have actually fought to keep Ganondorf in there after noticing the door was open? I am sure Ganondorf was not the only person who noticed the Realm was open, just a thought.



Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. I don't know. There are too many theories surrounding this entire aspect to give a really good response.



Didn't you already state this at the beginning? Oh well. Nintendo isn't trying to cover up anything. They are not trying to cover up the original version of the AOL manual (Japan) or the original version of any other game manual. However, they could be taking creative freedom to try and get everything pieced together. After all, if there was a definitive time line, it would be very obvious and all theories would no longer exist.



Mistake? According to whom... you? I get what you’re saying: History cannot be rewritten. What happened happened. However, this is not reality. Were talking about a fantasy game that arguably never originally HAD a time line. In fact, it was not even intended to become a series. When the original game was made it was intended as a standalone title. So, I think we can excuse the creators of the games for possibly changing a few things to make everything fit better. After all, they can predict everything their mind is going to cook up a decade later right? Especially when they make the games "out of order" time line wise. It is what it is.

Oh and last I checked, for the Zelda franchise, Nintendo IS a God. After all, it's THEIR game.



Proof of this? I don't remember playing those 7 years, do you? Oh, and we know EVERYTHING about EVERY race in the game, right? Who would have thought at the time that Zora's could possibly fly one day?



I am so glad you know everything that happened in every waking moment of the War. While there is a lot information and "canon" for the war available, many of it contradicts itself, and some parts you are left wondering. Last I checked, didn't Ganondorf WIN the war? I could be mistaken... but that was my impression. IF that was the case... then would he not have fought OUT of the realm and into Hyrule? I mean, he may have lost... but that was after the hero showed up, I believe. Again, it's been awhile so I could be way off base.



It says they were told to forge a sword, not that it actually happened. I get told to do a lot of things... sometimes it doesn't happen regardless.



They don't have a 100% accurate timeline; hence we are free to have our theories. Yes, I know they "claim", rather under their breath, that they do have an "ultimate" timeline most assume they just have a general idea, no more fluid then the best of the timeline theorists. It took them a good long while to admit that OOT creates a split timeline. I seriously doubt when they made OOT they were thinking "yeah, this is going to cause a split timeline". In fact, that is exactly why it took so long to say it. The fact that the split timeline at OOT makes no literal sense (for reasons I won’t get into) is irrelevant. Myiamoto said the timeline is split. You know what? In 10 years he may say it's not because the games up to that point completely changed the entire timeline.

That’s why we get to theorize instead of being told. Myiamoto, and Nintendo, don't care all too much about the timeline. They just try harder now to make things fit because we demand it, not because it overly concerns them. Story, game play, fun. That is their focus. Making the story fit with everything isn't possible most the time... so they just do their best, or alter history when necessary.



You know, I read the entire 2 pages of this and you’re the one coming across as argumentative while Moon is just trying to have a conversation. In fact, your points are only really on a solid base back in 1993. It's been 15 years and crap changed. It happens. I understand you don't like to think Nintendo messes with History in the series... but they do. Deal with it. Creative freedom is something they do use, whether you like it or not.



Let me ask you: What time line do you think Nintendo IS shooting for? Last I heard, they won’t tell us. In fact, many assume they are trying to piece it together just like we are. The only anger I see is from close minded people that can't accept that events in history are altered for creative purposes. I mean no offense in any of what I am saying... but you just sound like person who refuses to even consider anyone else’s theories because all of yours, in your mind, is 100% Canon.
Unfortunately for me, you make a very forceful argument. I... have absolutely nothing I can say to that. Perhaps I've been clinging to the old manual for two long, but at the very least it will be a great piece of expired history. I think..

I think that I may actually be able to prove the manual is null. EDN's timeline would actually work better without the Imprisoning War being separate. It would certainly clear up a lot of speculation we have...

I'd much like to continue this in a faster fashion. do you have Msn? If you do, pm it to me.
 
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Nathan

Guest
Well, in all of this, we have to remember that there are multiple ways to look at things. I was so forceful in my response to make it clear to you that different people can view things differently then you, and come up with fairly decent arguments to do so. I in no way necessarily believe half of what I say, as most of it was an example. It's just like I can make good arguments to put TMC before OOT, and good arguments not to. It just comes down to what I choose to believe.

Also, for talking on MSN: I'll add it to my profile soon enough. Being new around here, I forget people just don't "know me and how to contact me". Heh, my mistake. As for finishing up this conversation there... I am willing to discuss it more. However, not talking here ends any way for others to get involved.

So, I'll continue with a couple more points.

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb294/Zeldaeinstein/z3manual-05-06.jpg

Now, you use those 2 manual pages in your original post, yet you go on to say about OOT that hyrule was all messed up and according you the manual, he didn't put hyrule in termoil. Let me quote a few lines:

"this weapon became known as the Blade of Evil's Bane, or the Master Sword. It was so powerful that only one who was pure of heart and strong of body could weild it."

Alright... so a blade was forged that could defeat Ganon... but only one person could possibly weild it. Sounds to me... they made a blade for a hero. Obviously... they don't have a hero to weild it.

"As the seven Wise Men searched for a valiant person..."

Again, the Wise Men are searching for a hero. They spend 99.9% of the war doing this.

"Ganon's evil army swarmed from the tainted Golden Land into Hyrule and attack the castle."

Again, they did attack, and ravage, hyrule. Many lives were lost, and frankly it appeared Ganon had won until...

"they bought precious time for the Seven Wise Men to magically seal Ganon in the Golden Land."

So, last we heard they were searching for a valiant person to take up the Master Sword and stop Ganon. One could safely assess then that the War bought them enough time (maybe 7 years... *cough*) to find Link, who then defeated Ganon and with the help of hte sages, sealed him into the realm. It is very vague on how they sealed him into the Golden Land, but being the last we heard they were looking for someone to weild the Master Sword... you can put two and two together. The only really big issue is having "dual Master Swords". I admit, I don't have a very good way to explain it.

I mean, you skip 7 years in OOT and it's possible the sword you pulled is still there the entire 7 years... but that doesn't explain why they forged a new blade... unless the sword you pulled was not the master sword (possibly the picori sword... or the Four Sword. You know, some other sword that sealed things up) and after seven years, the Sages (or Wise Men as they could be called) found Link and exchanged the sword with the Master Sword. Of course, this is REALLY stretching things. The only true argument is Nintendo took a creative license and ignored that part of the original text.

Again though, I neither support the OOT IW theories, nor deny them. I mean, I could also argue that TP is the IW. Heh, I am more or less just trying to "refute" your "there is NO HERO" talks and the whole "hyrule wasn't attacked" claim by using your own sources against you.
 
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Joined
May 8, 2008
I support the idea that, simply, things could change after saposed years and centuries of time, is our history exactly as is should be? No, did things like paul bunion and some other tall tales happen? probably, but it became somthing different along the way. We asume this 'Legend' is being 'written' In game anwyays by a master who knows the past, and the stories passed down by the families of Hyrule, and yet do we know? gosh, what would have happend if they National enquire was around? or other tabloid magazine type things, they could change the story greatly.

Just saying, the fact is this is meant to be a legend, not somthing with concrete details, and what we ae doing is peaking in for a bit to see the important parts.
 
D

Deku Lord

Guest
Also, for talking on MSN: I'll add it to my profile soon enough. Being new around here, I forget people just don't "know me and how to contact me". Heh, my mistake. As for finishing up this conversation there... I am willing to discuss it more. However, not talking here ends any way for others to get involved.
That's not really the purpose of speaking on Msn, my partner, I'm sure, has more to say than I, but he doesn't belong to these forums. He's probably got something I missed, after all it is his article.

"this weapon became known as the Blade of Evil's Bane, or the Master Sword. It was so powerful that only one who was pure of heart and strong of body could weild it."

Alright... so a blade was forged that could defeat Ganon... but only one person could possibly weild it. Sounds to me... they made a blade for a hero. Obviously... they don't have a hero to weild it.
Or, looking at 'one' in a different context, it could mean that anybody who had a pure heart and strong body could wield it.

"As the seven Wise Men searched for a valiant person..."

Again, the Wise Men are searching for a hero. They spend 99.9% of the war doing this.
Note that all seven are searching for the hero

"they bought precious time for the Seven Wise Men to magically seal Ganon in the Golden Land."

So, last we heard they were searching for a valiant person to take up the Master Sword and stop Ganon. One could safely assess then that the War bought them enough time (maybe 7 years... *cough*) to find Link, who then defeated Ganon and with the help of the sages, sealed him into the realm. It is very vague on how they sealed him into the Golden Land, but being the last we heard they were looking for someone to wield the Master Sword... you can put two and two together. The only really big issue is having "dual Master Swords". I admit, I don't have a very good way to explain it.
It's possible that it was forged before the beginning of OoT, and they didn't think to look for a kid to wield it. However, if you remember, you find the Master Sword as a child, yet the sages don't know that they are the sages until after they are awakened. If that's not proof the War isn't OoT, I don't know what is.

And I'm just going to throw this out there, Ganon knew at least part of how to access the Golden Land, because he cast a curse on the Great Deku Tree, sealed up Dodongo's Cavern, and Infected the Zoras' lord, Jabu Jabu, in order to make them give up the stones. After all that he went to the castle, because he *probably* figured that Hylians would have at least one artifact.
 
Joined
May 8, 2008
Well, it wasnt like the Royal family didnt make it at least relativly known... Zelda speaks about how they kept it a guarded secret, and yet she's willing to tekll it to a young 'fairy boy' who she just met, who could just as easily have been a killer and solid snaked his way passed the guards.
 
Joined
Apr 28, 2008
-Now then, about Nintendo's 'creative license', you treat the Big N as if they are supposed to be some kind of God. Nintendo needs to not change the manual of old, because those who remember will argue its case. Regardless of their intent, the races are not there in the Imprisoning War. They are all Hylian, and they can't change that. They need to work around their mistakes instead of overwriting them.
They aren't overwriting them, and for one they aren't mistakes the series has to be somewhat fluid for the games to fit together in the first place, there has to be a little wiggleroom. Nintendo retconned that part of Alttp and made the seven sages come from all over hyrule instead of just one area which I think is a better idea, Ganon was trying to take over all of hyrule so it makes more sense to me to have the sages come from all over. And there are also many things that are very ambiguous in OOT, for one, I don't think Ganon even knew if pulling out the master sword would open the door to the golden land. Through his lust for power he was able to learn enough about the sacred stones that he went after them that's all we know, he may not have even known what to do with them and how they were connected to the temple of time, just that they were somehow involved in getting to the golden land.
 
Joined
May 8, 2008
I'm sure he merely followed link, knew the stones were important beforehand, or he wouldnt have herassed the people before the events of the game, and let him do his thing, then, might have known you had to be a certain age to lift the master sword and take on the hero's ability.
 

Mike Pothier

Lord Shaper
Joined
Apr 5, 2008
Location
Southern California
All I got to say is the same thing I've always said. Legends and myths are called legends and myths BECAUSE so much time has passed, the facts get distorted. Although that translation page DOES clear up some questions, any distortions between OoT and ALttP can be summed up with one word: Telephone.

Anybody ever play Broken Telephone as kids? AKA Grapevine.
 
W

Wareya

Guest
Wait... Question.

How could this happen without a loop? The master sword was created before OoT, so they wouldn't spontaneously create it like that. Now, OoT is the only place the timeline can split, so the war thing couldn't happen then, or the split timeline would be... Poof. So, did the war happen during MM? Or during the line where Adult Zelda stays after the series?


And yeah, I still play Telephone with 3 friends for the heck of it.
 

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