Ocarina of Time The Fire Temple Chant & Gerudo Symbol

[ihateghirahim]

Ventus my friend, you seem to be contradicing yourself. I mean no offense, but it does seem odd that the Fire Temple using Islamic sounding music to create a cool atmosphere; while a tribe of women living and dressing in ways that violate the ideas of Islam using a symbol associated in modern times with Islam does not. Then there's also the fact that that symbol is used heavily in an evil sanctuary which has a huge idol with Hookshotable nipples. I fear I am naive of your religion, but the contradiction seems to be there.

 

[Ganondork]

It's the theme of a dangerous area that hosts a necromance'd dragon.

And the crosses in the original Legend of Zelda showed death with a Christian connotation. The beginnings of Islam were that of great peril, seeing as though Muhammad was to be hunted down. He escaped Mecca and headed for Medina, where he converted enough people to arrive back in Mecca without being contested. Did I mention that there's a desert - a "dangerous area" if you will - in between the two cities?

Also, I feel like you'd be singing a different song if this dragon was part of Islamic lore, and the Gerudos were fighting to keep him at bay.

The music was fine in my opinion. Using religious backdrops wasn't new to the gaming industry, and it's been used since Ocarina of Time. Honestly, I don't see how an Islamic backdrop is bad. The first three games had Christian references strewn throughout it, yet no one complains about that. The symbol is also pretty neat. Frankly, Islam is one of my favorite religions to learn about, and Ocarina of Time including influences from it was a nice touch.

 

[Ventus]

And the crosses in the original Legend of Zelda showed death with a Christian connotation. The beginnings of Islam were that of great peril, seeing as though Muhammad was to be hunted down. He escaped Mecca and headed for Medina, where he converted enough people to arrive back in Mecca without being contested. Did I mention that there's a desert - a "dangerous area" if you will - in between the two cities?

Also, I feel like you'd be singing a different song if this dragon was part of Islamic lore, and the Gerudos were fighting to keep him at bay.

1) Dangerous areas are every in the real world. That's not my point. My point is that it (potentially) is pushing negative images onto the religion which, as you can see in typical American life, doesn't lead to the *best* results. People make assumptions left and right, and believe it or not they'll blame a video game for their assumptions and any problems that stem from those. Heck, you see people putting the blame to video games for any crime to this day.

2) Not at all. But, it would be a neat thing anyway, the Gerudo actually having to fight for their own defense against some behemoth.

 

[Ganondork]

1) Dangerous areas are every in the real world. That's not my point. My point is that it (potentially) is pushing negative images onto the religion which, as you can see in typical American life, doesn't lead to the *best* results. People make assumptions left and right, and believe it or not they'll blame a video game for their assumptions and any problems that stem from those. Heck, you see people putting the blame to video games for any crime to this day.

I doubt that any child who plays the game is going to assume this. This is the work of people who are dead set on Islam being a terrible religion, because it "Preaches violence." This thread should be more of a "Why did Nintendo cop out and change it?" than "Is the old better than the new?" People create a negative connotation, and then Nintendo changes it because a few people were upset. The only thing that is a problem here is someone who wants to make something negative out of a real-world backdrop.

 

[Beauts]

I said I don't know because although I prefer the original Gerudo symbol (and my version of the OoT was 1.0 so I never even realised there was another one until later when I joined forums like this) but I think the Fire Temple music had to change. You can't really have Islamic prayer in a game. Not for any weird Islamophobic reason either, but quite the opposite. Nintendo are Japanese. I don't think Christians would appreciate if they had used Christian hymns as an atmospheric way of freaking people out in that environment. I think Muslims would have the same view point. I liked it for it's effect but I have to kind of agree that it was an inappropriate choice. While I'm aware that the new music is Gregorian chants, few understand the language so it isn't as controversial. I think the backlash could've proven too great.
I have to also then, in order to not be a hypocrite, disagree with the original Gerudo symbol, and maybe on principle it's the same, but they could have replaced it with something that doesn't look stupid (which, in my opinion, it does)

 

[ihateghirahim]

So just because less people know something is offensive, its not offensive? Anyway, now more people will know about it. This is certainly a conundrum.

 

[Beauts]

So just because less people know something is offensive, its not offensive? Anyway, now more people will know about it. This is certainly a conundrum.

I agree with you, i hateghiarhim.
Also, I wouldn't say 'less people know it is offensive'. That's ignorant. I'm pretty sure a lot of Muslims owned N64s, Islam did exist back in the 90s after all! (duh)

Anyway, thinking further on what I said above, I don't think the fact it added better to the atmosphere is enough of a reason for them to keep potentially offensive content. Projecting a negative view, even on a game which is not realistic, never achieves a good result in the world. And to say that people don't think video games influence real life is ridiculous, look at the arguments around that people are imitating murders on GTA. In this horrible, ignorant western hemisphere we unfortunately inhabit, it's highly likely with the resurgence of Zelda popularity from the release of TP onwards, that if Nintendo had left the music/symbols in later versions of OoT, it would have drawn negative attention to the franchise. These things would not have gone unnoticed, especially in a post 9/11 world. It's sad to think that politics affects gaming, but it does.

 

[Heroine of Time]

The original Fire Temple music was the best. I can't even stress that enough. I LOVE the original so much more than the new version – it's so much more creepy and realistic and fitting. I know the chant was apparently used in other games as well, though, so that might be the reason for the removal. It's such a disappointment.

And I also see similarities with the Fire Temple and Shadow Temple music. It's the same chanting. That's why I like the original – the chanting is so much different from everything else in the game – even things such as Malon's song, which also sounded very electronic.

However, though most people disagree, I personally prefer the new Gerudo symbol, actually. You say they're not similar? I see far more similarities than differences. And while I have no opinion on the whole "removing it because it's a religious symbol" argument, I believe that TLoZ should have its own unique symbols rather than basing them off of real life cultures. I like the new Gerudo symbol and I don't want to change it.

Thus there's not really an option on the poll for me. I kind of think I should go with "newer" just because it's so horribly outmatched right now. XD

 

[zeldahuman]

I'm not sure if this has been said yet, but alas, here I go.

I think that, in relevance to videogames, unless the developers intentionally try to, nothing is racist in them until we, as people, make things racist. In regards to the Gerudo symbol matching the Star and Moon symbol - just because they have similar designs, makes it offensive? Also, the chanting in the V1.0 Fire Temple music, I think, is far better than the new version (which sounds basically the same as the Shadow Temple's music.) The chanting made the dungeon actually feel like a temple.

As a child playing this game, I didn't think anything of the chanting in the background music (I own a golden V1.0 cartidge, hehe. :bleh nor the Gerudo symbol. And why? Because I was a kid. Children's minds are innocent; they don't pick up on "racist" things until we as a society teach them to pick things like that up. I'm sure children these days who were to play Ocarina of Time on the N64 would have a different perspective on the things we're discussing, simply because society always changes. We're aware of these "racial connections" and thus forth people can pick up on them now. One other thing in Ocarina of Time is the Skull Kids in Lost Woods resembling the stereotype "Black Face," (big lips and a dark face) which I think to be total bumkiss. Who in the right mind thought of that connection?

In regards to Ganondorf's blood - red to green - I think that was a good move. Simply because they needed to keep the E rating for the game. But, I think they should have at least changed it back to red for Ocarina of Time 3D (it already had an E10+ rating anyway.)

Censorship and "racial connections" can be spotting in a lot of media in general; one that comes to mind are the "subliminal messages" in classic Disney movies. Back in the day, no one knew of these "messages," but yet now it's a huge debate topic.

Main point; censorship is stupid. *shrug*