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Team Fortress 2: Mann vs. Machine

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I seriously doubt there's any type of third party at this point. We'd know by now of the existence of a cult, and there's been no indication whatsoever that there's something akin to a Serial Killer.

Frozen Chosen: Claimed VT early, and there's no real reason to doubt it. He did it solely as a means to attempt to hunt scum (Johnny being the suspect), which has made the claim solid to me the entire game. Also very little scummy activity at all.

ErenTheGenderfluidTitan: I've believed the claim since Jamie specifically indicated he was my own counterpart (ie the same role, being that of a normal armyman). Jamie's out-of-nowhere spat with Soul earlier in the game perked my interest in the both of them, but I think it's more likely that Soul was playing a Town Leader game as mafia rather than Jamie coincidentally fake-claiming as my counterpart (if anyone else is my counterpart, a normal armyman, I'd like to hear it).

Johnny Sooshi: I never really bought that HeroOfTime was scum just because he gave off such typical newbie vibes. His spat with Viral earlier in the game is also a sign that he's not affiliated with them, as I doubt Viral would have allowed Hero to bring it up in the first place as a ruse.

Malon: Pretty much the last remaining player I don't know what to think of, solely due to Zelda15's severe lack of posting the entire game. Malon himself has also demonstrated the same meta as when he was town - just going with the flow and voting on popular wagons for no real reason. Leads me to believe he's probably once again town, perhaps our last VT? (Would be nice if you could give us a hint, @Malon )

A Link in Time: If I had to put money on someone being our last mafia member, I'd say it's him, for three main reasons. The first being that incredibly scummy plea to be investigated when it was painfully obvious that Tristan wouldn't get the opportunity. The second being that he failed to even soft claim yesterday. This is critical because 1.) No one had even soft claimed that day, giving him ample opportunity and with reason to do so because he was on the hot seat all day yesterday, and 2.) A true claim of some important power role (perhaps our other Vigilante?) would have put pressure on the mafia to pick their poison and perhaps give us another day with Tristan and his results. My asking him if he had a real reason for me to not vote for him was an attempt to put either of two points to fruition, which he failed to do on both counts.

He got lucky yesterday that Toxic dug his own grave by being silent, but I see no reason not to axe him off today.

Cthulhu: I've had an eye on Soul the entire game because his playstyle has been very reminiscent of other players I've known that pull off Town Leader styles very well. The guy played hardcore town the entire game, and I've just grown to have an aversion to that kind of player. The real thing that set me off was his extreme fixation with my not fully believing Kokirion's claim initially, something that irked me because I was the one that pointed out and made sense of the claim to him in the first place. If ALIT isn't mafia, I really don't have much of a lead other than him afterward. It's a long shot though, and I can't even say I'm that confident in this hypothesis.

Vote: A Link in Time


Hmm I like the points you make. I'm just hesitant to automatically go to ALIT lynch.

We are missing the counterpart of Johnny Sooshi VT. So perhaps ALIT is that role. However, the one thing that worries me is that Vergo's role is not really confirmed. He claims that Jamie indicated they both are of the same character, but I don't necessarily see that. I saw your soft claim and everything, but whose to say you are not Johnny's counterpart?

If all the claims of VT are true, then there should be two red vanilla townies and one blue, excluding me. One of the red is Johnny's counter part.

Vergo and Eren, if I may ask, what are the colors of your roles?
 
Joined
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I've been a bit paranoid about the cop ever since Viral suggested SMS investigate me in Mafia Revival, and SMS died that night. That suspicion ultinately cost the town the game. In hindsight, overtly telling the cop to investigate me may not be the best, but I also snuck in a post for the cop to investigate me in Lineages, where I was town, and things worked out.

I've already pointed out why I don't think this relevant due to the context of this game. It's one thing to ask a cop to investigate you when there's no guarantee that they will immediately die (I would imagine the possibility was a great deal higher than the chances of Tristan surviving in the context of that game, due to our roleblockers and functional doctor all being dead/unable to help in this game). It's an entirely other to do it immediately after we nail Viral as mafia (not easy to do btw), and also when it's painfully obvious that the doctor in question will NEVER get a chance to investigate unless we do something (hint for below: you didn't).

II find it scummy that you're fishing for power roles in your post. Why should the vigilante come out if you say so? That's incredibly dangerous, especially when they can't fend for themselves on an even night. I do not think all of the role claims are genuine either. When the claims started, I would not be surprised if one of the mafia members tried to blame in. Looking back at the vote counts, I will elaborate on who that might be in a moment.

No, I would be "fishing for power roles" if I was extremely adamant about wanting you to claim yesterday, instead of the vague "any reason not to vote for you?" posts I was throwing at you. Me pointing out what could have theoretically happened in hindsight is nowhere near "fishing for power roles" especially when we still have functional doctor tonight. Even if I was, refer back to my post - I would have expected a town player to at least offer a vague soft claim, which would have put mafia in a position where they had to pick their poison. A possible end result would have been Tristan surviving and having another day to 1.) Investigate someone, and 2.) Survive the following night due to our doctor and Tristan being able to help the town scum hunt normally. The alternative is that Tristan still dies, but we have a potential power role (you) still alive today and tomorrow due to our doctor. Me naming Vigilante was merely a potential example of such a role.

I would have thought this was obvious, honestly. Your calling it out and trying to spin it as scummy makes me even more concerned.

Let's also remember guys: Our cop who did some good scum hunting this game was absolutely ready to lynch ALIT yesterday before Toxic went MIA and got himself killed. I'm not going to speak for him, but I'd imagine that his thoughts for my first point were at least somewhat similar to my own, as can be seen here:

Between the other 4 (Johnny, Toxic, Alit and Soul), I'm most suspicious of Alit rn because of that one post he made late yesterday that many people, including myself, have already pointed out.

Vote: Alit

Of course, this vote is tentative, and may end up changing in the future if a better opportunity presents itself.

What sort of hint? My role or wether or not I'm on of the two you listed?

Something isn't adding up with the vanilla townies - I'm pretty sure at this point that we have three TF2 roles dedicated to vanilla townies, them being the Demoman, Engineer, and the last being one being a name that hasn't been revealed yet but is my own (the common armyman). I initially thought that Frozen Chosen was my counterpart, but I believe that he said a while back that he isn't, and is rather either Johnny or Sadia's counterpart. This indicates that we have two VTs left in the game excluding myself and Frozen, with Jamie claiming to be one and the other remaining quiet so far.

I'm wondering where that last one is, because if they don't exist..... someone is lying. It's either myself, Frozen, or Jamie

We are missing the counterpart of Johnny Sooshi VT.

Ahh, you beat me to it. You seem to have the same logic as I had above with Malon. I think it's more likely that our last VT is just staying quiet due to what I know about the last TF2 name is that hasn't been revealed yet.

So perhaps ALIT is that role. However, the one thing that worries me is that Vergo's role is not really confirmed. He claims that Jamie indicated they both are of the same character, but I don't necessarily see that.

I'll point you to this quote right here:

I am of one of the 3 remaining classes and I have no powers.

Jamie claims that he's part of the three remaining classes that have yet to be revealed. At the time of this post, I believe those three remaining TF2 roles were Scout, Pyro, and Solider. This indicates that Jamie claimed as one of these roles. We know he isn't a Scout - Kokirion and Night Owl both flipped as those. Pyro probably isn't even in the game due to Deku Nut having to cut roles due to not getting enough players, and their being no indication of a "Pyro"-like role at play.

You do the math on who Jamie and I claim to be. It's pretty easy. I've been claiming this since Soul asked like two or three days ago.



If all the claims of VT are true, then there should be two red vanilla townies and one blue, excluding me. One of the red is Johnny's counter part.

Vergo and Eren, if I may ask, what are the colors of your roles?

That Eiffel 65 song is a huge guilty pleasure of mine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68ugkg9RePc
 
Vergo said:
I've already pointed out why I don't think this relevant due to the context of this game. It's one thing to ask a cop to investigate you when there's no guarantee that they will immediately die (I would imagine the possibility was a great deal higher than the chances of Tristan surviving in the context of that game, due to our roleblockers and functional doctor all being dead/unable to help in this game). It's an entirely other to do it immediately after we nail Viral as mafia (not easy to do btw), and also when it's painfully obvious that the doctor in question will NEVER get a chance to investigate unless we do something (hint for below: you didn't).

Who was it that suggested the first Viral lynch? It was me. I would have voted for him sooner the second time around, but I was out at the time. Yes, it was foolish for me to do what I did in hindsight, but you must be seriously thinking I bussed all three of the confirmed scum, since I was among the first people to vote for all three.

Vergo said:
No, I would be "fishing for power roles" if I was extremely adamant about wanting you to claim yesterday, instead of the vague "any reason not to vote for you?" posts I was throwing at you. Me pointing out what could have theoretically happened in hindsight is nowhere near "fishing for power roles" especially when we still have functional doctor tonight. Even if I was, refer back to my post - I would have expected a town player to at least offer a vague soft claim, which would have put mafia in a position where they had to pick their poison. A possible end result would have been Tristan surviving and having another day to 1.) Investigate someone, and 2.) Survive the following night due to our doctor and Tristan being able to help the town scum hunt normally. The alternative is that Tristan still dies, but we have a potential power role (you) still alive today and tomorrow due to our doctor. Me naming Vigilante was merely a potential example of such a role.

Your statements make no sense because only the odd night vigilante and doctor are alive. There was no "pick your poison" threat last night. A PR claim now would only help the mafia. There are some vanilla townies still alive, so it's best for PRs to stay hidden among the vanillas. Another thing that you keep assuming is that all of the soft claims are true. There is at least one soft claim that I think is very false, and I will elaborate on that in my reads list soon.
 
Definitely Town:

Frozen Chosen -
When Johnny was up for a lynch on Day 2, both Viral and Toxic voted for Frozen Chosen instead. This crucial piece of evidence makes me believe that Frozen Chosen's VT claim is completely true.

Leaning Town:

Johnny Sooshi (previously HeroOfTime) -
Hero was one of the first people to call out Viral, so I'm inclined to believe Johnny is town, but he's barely been posting recently, so I am not as sure anymore.

Neutral:

Cthulhu -
There is a possibility that Soul was mafia pretending to be a town leader, and I was okay with a policy lynch of him at one point yesterday, but I think his incredible amount of posts should at least land him in the territory of being a null read. I will make a better assessment once Cthulhu posts some more.

Leaning Scum:

Malon (previously Zelda15) -
Zelda15 was another person who barely posted, so it's hard to get any real leads, but one post that stood out was randomly voting for Pendio. There was no explanation whatsoever. It's also worth noting that Toxic proposed Zelda15 could be the vig. It could have been him trying to pocket a townie, but combined with the vote for Pendio, this makes Malon look more scummy than not.

Ver-go-a-go-go - I realize this may come off as a revenge suspicion with Vergo currently voting for me, but looking back at the vote counts I posted, he's barely joined any lynches in this game so far. He was not one of the final voters for Doc or Viral and only came to hammer Toxic. He could very well be scum trying to take the safe route by not engaging until end game. As I mentioned before, Vergo is also fishing for power roles right now and making arguments that make no sense in the context of the odd/even night roles.

Strongest Scum:

ErenTheGenderFluidTitan (previously Jamie) -
The first thing that ticked my interest was that Eren voted for Frozen Chosen the moment she came in. After publicizing that both Viral and Toxic had previously voted for Frozen over Johnny, I was hoping that someone might fall for the bait, and Eren did. It's worth noting that Jamie was also suspicious of Frozen Chosen when he started playing. If there was a player to fake claim in this game, I believe someone as experienced as Jamie would be the one to do it.
 
Joined
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Location
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Who was it that suggested the first Viral lynch? It was me. I would have voted for him sooner the second time around, but I was out at the time.

You know, what I hate about mafia is that literally anything can be spun as scummy. kokirion pointed out a while back how this was becoming a numbers game with all of the claiming, and how bad of a spot the mafia was getting in. Viral was smart and realized that, I think. He knew he was almost certainly number one one the "to investigate" list and instructed mafia to never defend him too much/side with him. It's also common mafia strategy to not blatantly defend your fellow mafia and to even thrust suspicion on them every once and while to blend in.

You're also acting like you're the one that got Viral lynched, when that's nowhere near close to the truth. Tristan got Viral lynched - you contributed nothing substantial to the effort because Viral plays a tight game and didn't give anyone anything to work with; it took, like I said, and investigation effort to get him killed off.

Yes, it was foolish for me to do what I did in hindsight, but you must be seriously thinking I bussed all three of the confirmed scum, since I was among the first people to vote for all three.

"Among this first" is so much different than "the first" that it's not even funny. By this logic, remember my lynch candidates a while back? Oh yeah, something like this......


If we have next to no lynch candidates for today, I say we go for one of the quiet people that no one can get a read on. Toxic_Snowman and Doc seem like the best candidates at the moment to me.

Oh yeah. Both mafia. Going to pat myself on the back for that one. I'm confirmed town now, right?

My two lynch candidates that day when you "bussed" Doc ended up both being mafia. We had little to no leads whatsoever that day, so I think you knew after my suggestion that one of the two were going to be lynched almost solely due to their lack of activity. You didn't start the wagon, but you jumped on as soon as you didn't have an option. You also saw it as a great oppertunity to built your town cred because, as I've said, mafia has been in a bad position since kokirion claimed and the curtain started falling.

So that's both Doc and Viral down for you. As for Toxic? Well, you knew you were in trouble. You were DEAD yesterday if something didn't happen. What better strategy than a last-ditch town cred effort to get your inactive scum bud killed?

All three of your "justifications" for being town are easily explained and hold literally no water compared to the numbers game we're at right now.


Your statements make no sense because only the odd night vigilante and doctor are alive. There was no "pick your poison" threat last night. A PR claim now would only help the mafia.

It makes perfect sense, and you're absolutely refusing to believe it does because I think you're desperately clinging to whatever you can at this point. Let me clearly and concisely lay this out for you since clearly it seems to be going over your head:

What Happened: It's night six. The Vigilante and Doctor have not claimed and cannot act, but will be able to do so on night seven. Tristan is going to be killed because if left alive, he will relay his results on day seven and confirm someone/hit scum. There's no reason for the mafia to target anyone else because of no claim.

What Could've Happened Had You Softclaimed Vigilante (For Example):
It's night six. We now have a claimed Vigilante and Cop. The mafia knows if they fail to eliminate Tristan, he will relay his results on day seven and confirm someone/hit scum. However, if left alive, this Vigilante will be able to act on night seven and will even likely survive their nightkill due to the doctor also being able to act. With the claims and player numbers, the possibility of hitting mafia is quite high. They now have to pick their poison - allow Tristan to relay results, or allow the Vigilante to get a kill the following night.

Do you finally understand what I'm saying? Again, I thought this was so obvious since we've been simmering on this odd/even mechanic for a while now. But this is ON TOP of you just failing to even vaguely soft claim in general, something that would only make sense with the amount of pressure you had on you after your extreme scummy plea to be investigated. Here's the thing: I don't think you can claim, because the game will end right there when someone calls you out for it. You flip scum, game over. You flip town, we go after who countered you, game over. I think the former is more likely.

There are some vanilla townies still alive, so it's best for PRs to stay hidden among the vanillas.

This is laughable. You're acting like these vanilla townies are hidden among the crowd and could be anyone. News flash: their right in front of everyone's face with potentially just a single one remaining unknown. I'm completely aware of who is most likely our remaining PRs, because it's really freaking obvious to god and everyone at this point. The mafia knows this as well, and your attempt to keep the curtain down and keep us from pulling off masks is just digging you deeper and deeper into that hole.


Another thing that you keep assuming is that all of the soft claims are true. There is at least one soft claim that I think is very false, and I will elaborate on that in my reads list soon.

Did you read the rest of my response to Frozen and Malon? There's almost zero reason to believe any of these vanilla soft claims are false. I'm not going to repeat myself.

Honestly, I'm looking forward to your justification on why one is fake (wonder who it's going to be out of just three people lol). Definitely not me or Jamie, nope.
 
Joined
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Location
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ErenTheGenderFluidTitan (previously Jamie) - The first thing that ticked my interest was that Eren voted for Frozen Chosen the moment she came in. After publicizing that both Viral and Toxic had previously voted for Frozen over Johnny, I was hoping that someone might fall for the bait, and Eren did. It's worth noting that Jamie was also suspicious of Frozen Chosen when he started playing. If there was a player to fake claim in this game, I believe someone as experienced as Jamie would be the one to do it.

Yeah, exactly what I expected. Have you paid like, literally no attention to my posts at all? Please, re-read my replay to Frozen where I quote Jamie, isolate our remaining power-roles, and explain why his claim of the role that is the exact same as mine points to it being fake. This also acts as my defense, as if I haven't done enough of that already.

I think you're deliberately ignoring/refusing to acknowledge the points I'm making here. None of what you're saying is making any sense at all.
 
Vergo said:
You're also acting like you're the one that got Viral lynched, when that's nowhere near close to the truth. Tristan got Viral lynched - you contributed nothing substantial to the effort because Viral plays a tight game and didn't give anyone anything to work with; it took, like I said, and investigation effort to get him killed off.

I was the first person to vote for Viral when he was on the verge of getting lynched.

DekuNut said:
VOTE COUNT:
Viral Maze (4): A Link in Time, Soul, Malon, Night Owl

It's clear to me that you have not paid any attention to the vote counts I posted yesterday. They're one of the main tools I've used to substantiate my read lists. It was this set of votes that even made someone suggest that Viral should be investigated.

Vergo said:
"Among this first" is so much different than "the first" that it's not even funny. By this logic, remember my lynch candidates a while back? Oh yeah, something like this......

See above.

Vergo said:
Oh yeah. Both mafia. Going to pat myself on the back for that one. I'm confirmed town now, right?

There's a difference between suggesting something and committing to it.

Vergo said:
What Could've Happened Had You Softclaimed Vigilante (For Example): It's night six. We now have a claimed Vigilante and Cop. The mafia knows if they fail to eliminate Tristan, he will relay his results on day seven and confirm someone/hit scum. However, if left alive, this Vigilante will be able to act on night seven and will even likely survive their nightkill due to the doctor also being able to act. With the claims and player numbers, the possibility of hitting mafia is quite high. They now have to pick their poison - allow Tristan to relay results, or allow the Vigilante to get a kill the following night.

Do you finally understand what I'm saying? Again, I thought this was so obvious since we've been simmering on this odd/even mechanic for a while now. But this is ON TOP of you just failing to even vaguely soft claim in general, something that would only make sense with the amount of pressure you had on you after your extreme scummy plea to be investigated. Here's the thing: I don't think you can claim, because the game will end right there when someone calls you out for it. You flip scum, game over. You flip town, we go after who countered you, game over. I think the former is more likely.

I don't think you understand what I'm saying. If the vig outed themselves, they would have been protected by the doctor on night 7, but they most certainly would have died on night 8, and the mafia could easily narrow down the list of possibilities of who the doctor is. What really would have mattered is if the mafia had to decide between their target on night 6, which was not the case. Tristan was most certainly dead.
 
Yeah, exactly what I expected. Have you paid like, literally no attention to my posts at all? Please, re-read my replay to Frozen where I quote Jamie, isolate our remaining power-roles, and explain why his claim of the role that is the exact same as mine points to it being fake. This also acts as my defense, as if I haven't done enough of that already.

I think you're deliberately ignoring/refusing to acknowledge the points I'm making here. None of what you're saying is making any sense at all.

I'm not going to believe someone is a certain role just because they say they are, and you believe they are indeed your counterpart. We saw that Storm was more than willing to claim town roleblocker when he was in fact the mafia roleblocker. The suspicion on Frozen Chosen by both Jamie and Eren is incredibly scummy. It completely fits with what Viral and Toxic were doing earlier.
 
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