Team Fortress 2: Mann vs. Machine

[Johnny Sooshi]

Vote: Frozen Chosen

I don't really care if this is reactionary.

You have no evidence against me other than "Oh, he doesn't know about even/odd so he must be scum" after claiming to have strong evidence that I was "Vig or scum", reiterating a post that people have been discussing all day, and sharing no real evidence. This seems like you're just trying to desperately shaft me for a lynch with no real reasoning. We've already established that VT's exist and that lack of knowledge of the even/odd day cycle is a possibility.

 

[Pen]

Personally I just really do not see a reason why FC would be lying. What would he have to gain by sharing the information that he has shared if it is all a lie? Besides, even though Mafia is indeed a game of deception, there is typically a lot more truth being spoken than there are lies. And again, I really do not see the point for FC to be making all of this up. It is not like he was in a bad spot before or anything.

Johnny has pretty much admitted to not having known about the even/odd night things, which means that he cannot have one of (what we think is) the regular kind of Town power roles. This leads us to be able to strongly assume that Johnny is either VT or Mafia. Now back to FC, at least I personally really do not see the point of him lying here. He would know that if his lie succeeds and we kill Johnny today (and Johnny flips Town) that he will only be lynched himself on the following day. So yeah, I really find it hard to believe that FC is lying or is with the Mafia.

Johnny is almost definitely either VT or Mafia. FC says that Johnny is not VT. Put two and two together and you should be able to take action on it. Each one of us is just going to have to decide whether or not they want to trust FC for now or not. I, for one, do choose to trust him for the time being since I do not see why he would be lying about it.

The only thing that does trouble be somewhat, however, is why FC has not yet voted for Johnny himself. Seeing as from his own perspective it should be plain obvious that Johnny is scum (at least as long as we assume that the Town PR function the same way (which I really do suspect they do)).

 

[Mellow Ezlo]

See the problem I have with this whole situation is that people seem to be blindly following FroCho based on the supposed information he has, yet he hasn't explained what this information is. He said it isn't what we think it is so what else could it be? I'm not saying frozen is lying but he is holding back information, and this information could be extremely useful to us. LIke Pendio said, I see no reason why FroCho would lie, but something about this whole situation isn't adding up. Now it's basically come down to "which do you trust between the two". I can't honestly say I fully trust either of them and I don't know which one I trust more.

Frozen, I really would like to know why you're so sure Johnny can't be a vt. I really wanna believe you but I have trouble doing so when you can't back up that claim.

 

[HeroOfTime]

I honestly don't really know who to vote for presently. The only suspect I currently have is maybe Johnny Sooshi because of his post a while back.

For reasons stated by a couple of other members, I think this makes him either VT or mafia. If no other cases are made for other players, I think I'll vote for him tomorrow.[/qoute]

FoS: Hero

Was it my lack of a target, or the fact that I thought Sooshi was suspicious that made you think I'm scum? What exactly is scummy about my post? Especially since other members have come to the same conclusion.

 

[HeroOfTime]

DANG I MESSED UP THE QUOTE TAGS AGAIN!!! :bno::rno:

 

[Night Owl]

Is this attempt to bandwagon on Johnny because:
1. We assume all town roles follow the odd/even mechanic
2. We assume that only VTs and Scum would be unaware of the mechanic
3. Johnny was seemingly unaware of the mechanic
4. FroCho inexplicably says that Johnny has an active powerrole and therefore must be scum.

As much as I would like to know how Fro Cho got the info, I think how Johnny flips would determine his innocence.
As much as I think there is a possibility of scum throwing scum under the bus, I don't see the wisdom of that kind of play.
I would think that scum would rather pass scum off as VT in this situation.

If assumption 1 and 2 are wrong, both Johnny and Fro Cho could flip town.

 

[Soul]

See the problem I have with this whole situation is that people seem to be blindly following FroCho based on the supposed information he has, yet he hasn't explained what this information is. He said it isn't what we think it is so what else could it be? I'm not saying frozen is lying but he is holding back information, and this information could be extremely useful to us. LIke Pendio said, I see no reason why FroCho would lie, but something about this whole situation isn't adding up. Now it's basically come down to "which do you trust between the two". I can't honestly say I fully trust either of them and I don't know which one I trust more.

Frozen, I really would like to know why you're so sure Johnny can't be a vt. I really wanna believe you but I have trouble doing so when you can't back up that claim.

I'm curious myself, but Night Owl makes a good point. No reason to pressure Frozen Chosen just yet in my eyes.

 

[Ver-go-a-go-go]

Johnny seems to be a little bit more defensive than what I would expect in the way that he seems to be trying to push some suspicion on to each of his accusers. I understand a gut-based reactionary vote on Frozen Chosen (many tend to do that), but it strikes me as very odd that he would do the same thing in a less radical manner (not voting, more like tossing out a FoS) to Soul earlier on.

I'm not voting yet, because I would like to be corrected if I'm wrong in this assumption - we're going off the premise that in order to not be aware of an even/odd night mechanic, Johnny would have to be either a vanilla townie (which we know exist) that doesn't have a role to begin with, or a mafia member that isn't bound by the even/odd mechanic. Frozen Chosen has determined via a night role that Johnny is indeed not a vanilla townie as he performed some action last night. This would point to him being mafia by process of elimination.

If I'm correct on this, it does seem plausible at the very least, and would explain Johnny's apparent frustration - he accidentally slipped up while trying to play town by attempting to "figure out" the game with the rest of us and feign ignorance. I know I certainly would be annoyed if I made that kind of mistake this early on.

Regardless, it seems like a good hunch to act on. Kokirion is also being much more rigorous in his defense than I remember him being, although it's been a long time since our last game I suppose.

 

[DekuNut]

VOTE COUNT 2.2
Johnny Sooshi (2): Soul, Pendio
Spiritual Mask Salesman (1): Malon
Pendio (1): Zelda15
Frozen Chosen (1): Johnny Sooshi
Not Voting (13): Kokirion, A Link in Time, Tristan, Viral Maze, Mido, Frozen Chosen, Spiritual Mask Salesman, Night Owl, Ver-go-a-go-go, Toxic_Snowman, Doc, HeroOfTime, Jamie

YET TO MEET POST REQUIREMENT
Mido (2), Spiritual Mask Salesman (0), Doc (1)

Day 2 will end on Tuesday, April 26, 2016 at 6pm PST. 3 posts are required this game day, or else you will be replaced.
With 18 players alive, it takes 10 for majority.

 

[Mido]

.

I'm not voting yet, because I would like to be corrected if I'm wrong in this assumption - we're going off the premise that in order to not be aware of an even/odd night mechanic, Johnny would have to be either a vanilla townie (which we know exist) that doesn't have a role to begin with, or a mafia member that isn't bound by the even/odd mechanic. Frozen Chosen has determined via a night role that Johnny is indeed not a vanilla townie as he performed some action last night. This would point to him being mafia by process of elimination.

If I'm correct on this, it does seem plausible at the very least, and would explain Johnny's apparent frustration - he accidentally slipped up while trying to play town by attempting to "figure out" the game with the rest of us and feign ignorance. I know I certainly would be annoyed if I made that kind of mistake this early on.

Regardless, it seems like a good hunch to act on. Kokirion is also being much more rigorous in his defense than I remember him being, although it's been a long time since our last game I suppose.

What I find interesting about all of this, even though there is still plenty that I am trying to piece together, is that Frozen Chosen has seemingly been fixated on Johnny since Day 1 as well, but that may have just been RVS. Otherwise, I'm kind of stumped right now.

 

[Johnny Sooshi]

Johnny seems to be a little bit more defensive than what I would expect in the way that he seems to be trying to push some suspicion on to each of his accusers. I understand a gut-based reactionary vote on Frozen Chosen (many tend to do that), but it strikes me as very odd that he would do the same thing in a less radical manner (not voting, more like tossing out a FoS) to Soul earlier on.

I'm not voting yet, because I would like to be corrected if I'm wrong in this assumption - we're going off the premise that in order to not be aware of an even/odd night mechanic, Johnny would have to be either a vanilla townie (which we know exist) that doesn't have a role to begin with, or a mafia member that isn't bound by the even/odd mechanic. Frozen Chosen has determined via a night role that Johnny is indeed not a vanilla townie as he performed some action last night. This would point to him being mafia by process of elimination.

If I'm correct on this, it does seem plausible at the very least, and would explain Johnny's apparent frustration - he accidentally slipped up while trying to play town by attempting to "figure out" the game with the rest of us and feign ignorance. I know I certainly would be annoyed if I made that kind of mistake this early on.

Regardless, it seems like a good hunch to act on. Kokirion is also being much more rigorous in his defense than I remember him being, although it's been a long time since our last game I suppose.

Then you misread my frustration. Frozen has done NOTHING to prove he found anything last night in anyway that would incriminate me.

Now I'm going to hypothesize something. If we are going off the notion that most people except vanilla and scum knew about the even/odd situation, then scum would definitely try to take advantage of it. Obviously I wasn't aware of the function so I asked, which did make me appear scummy others. If mafia saw this, they can play off this. So we could assume Frozen is scum, claiming some sort of investigative role that has gained information on me. If he outright claimed, both cops would also have to claim, meaning mafia could NK them. He's also safe because one can't be certain there isn't another at this point. Now it is a gamble to drive a lynch on someone who will flip town, but he could claim he thought I was Godfather, which would clear him up a bit since GF returns innocent instead of guilty. In fact, if he was GF, the real cops could investigate him if they got suspicious, and he'd appear town. It keeps him covered and he can drive for at least one town lynch.

This is my theory, and if I'm wrong and Frozen flips town, then yes, I'll admit it and accept my lynch. But I've never been wrong in these types of plays. (FMA mafia, Downton Abbey Mafia, Raj's Cops mafia)

 

[Johnny Sooshi]

I also wanted to point out, with all this suspicion on me and only two votes, you gotta wonder who's trying to be careful.

 

[Night Owl]

Right now everyone is thinking things over.

However, if we lynch you and you flip town, fro cho is the next one on the chopping block. He might even get nked by a vig.
I figure that if you both were scum, he would have tried to convince us that you were VT.

My concern is that if we are wrong about our assumptions, this plan could render us with 2 town flips. I can't shake the feeling that there might be a full time town role.

However I think that the only way to confirm that would be to go ahead and carry out this plan. It might reveal a lot.

Vote: Johnny Sooshi

 

[Ver-go-a-go-go]

Yeah, I'm there with you. Johnny is doing the exact same thing that I pointed out earlier with his second reply there:

I also wanted to point out, with all this suspicion on me and only two votes, you gotta wonder who's trying to be careful.

I can't remember having played with you before (again, last game was late 2014), but you're coming off as more desperate than ever right now, ferociously trying to get attention to anywhere else. Again, I understand having to play offense when you've been forced into defense for an entire day (I've had to do it many times and have felt the same frustration), but your second reply just really rubs me the wrong way after you made some sense before that.

I find it difficult to believe that Frozen Chosen would be scum and wound hinge so much on trying to get a townie lynched this early. I don't see the logic in a mafia member fakeclaiming so early, then sacrificing his life by lying about someone (because if you're town, he's next tomorrow). This is the kind of play you make towards the end of the game when the mafia has the numbers to just throw one their own out there, not on day two with only a single townie dead.

My only other theory is that Frozen is trying to pull what Soul inadvertently caused yesterday - he wants the really tracker/whatever to come out and counter-claim, so at the end of it all, you're either dead or the tracker is out in the open. It seems somewhat likely.

What I find interesting about all of this, even though there is still plenty that I am trying to piece together, is that Frozen Chosen has seemingly been fixated on Johnny since Day 1 as well, but that may have just been RVS. Otherwise, I'm kind of stumped right now.

Perhaps Frozen has an ulterior motive for wanting Johnny dead, which would explain his apparent fixation as you said. Again though, it would make sense that Frozen would target Johnny with his night-role given his fixation on day one. It makes sense.

Regardless, I haven't voted because I don't like the situation either way. Although the pieces put together make sense, I can't help be uneasy and let some doubt creep in. Although again, I've never played with Johnny before; I don't know if this is his usual reaction or not.

When does day end?

 

[Johnny Sooshi]

I can't remember having played with you before (again, last game was late 2014), but you're coming off as more desperate than ever right now, ferociously trying to get attention to anywhere else. Again, I understand having to play offense when you've been forced into defense for an entire day (I've had to do it many times and have felt the same frustration), but your second reply just really rubs me the wrong way after you made some sense before that.

Again, look at previous games. I defend myself this way in all games where I'm facing a lynch. FMA Day 1, Downton Abbey Day 2, etc.

@Frozen Chosen still has yet to say what he did with his night role and I'm really confused about why the town is okay with this kind of lynch.