Team Fortress 2: Mann vs. Machine

[Johnny Sooshi]

Hey @Malon, could you please change your goddamn avatar? I wouldn't mind if it wasn't for this mafia game, where it's incredibly distracting and confusing.

Reminds me when everyone used Charizard avatars in one game

 

[Jamie]

I agree with all of those points, but I do have a question. What if he is mafia and was TRYING to cause chaos among the town?

It was just a general warning, as he did the same thing last game.

 

[DekuNut]

VOTE COUNT 1.2
Storm (5): Pendio, Malon, HeroOfTime, Zelda15, Tristan
Malon (1): Sadia
Mido (1): A Link in Time
Spiritual Mask Salesman (1): Mido
Dan (1): Johnny Sooshi
Kokirion (1): Viral Maze
A Link in Time (1): Night Owl
Johnny Sooshi (1): Frozen Chosen
Sadia (1): Kokirion
Tristan (1): Storm
Not Voting (6): Spiritual Mask Salesman, Doc, Dan, Toxic_Snowman, Ver-go-a-go-go, Soul
Day 1 will end on Tuesday, April 19, 2016 at 3pm PST.
With 20 players alive, it takes 11 for majority

 

[Night Owl]

Well it seems like we've moved passed rvsing at this point.

A lot seems to have happened since i went to bed last night.

It does seem awfully suspicious of both Malon and Storm both roleclaiming the same role on day one.
If Storm really did panic and out himself, then Malon could be trying to take advantage of the fake claim and push for a lynch of the true power role. Malon could see sacrificing himself for removing a valuable power role a worthwhile investment for the mafia.

If Malon truly had the role, what value would there be in counter-claiming?


Also I think red and blu teams are likely both town considering the wording of the signups. I have a hunch that they may have shared roles with quirks that limit the role. EG. Medics might only be effective on same color players or something.

 

[Night Owl]

It's tough to grammar when posting from a phone

 

[Mipha]

Well it seems like we've moved passed rvsing at this point.

A lot seems to have happened since i went to bed last night.

It does seem awfully suspicious of both Malon and Storm both roleclaiming the same role on day one.
If Storm really did panic and out himself, then Malon could be trying to take advantage of the fake claim and push for a lynch of the true power role. Malon could see sacrificing himself for removing a valuable power role a worthwhile investment for the mafia.

If Malon truly had the role, what value would there be in counter-claiming?


Also I think red and blu teams are likely both town considering the wording of the signups. I have a hunch that they may have shared roles with quirks that limit the role. EG. Medics might only be effective on same color players or something.

Well what I perceived as value of counter claiming was to prevent a mafia member from tricking you all. Also, I wouldn't sacrifice myself even to remove a power role. I'm not that kind of player.

 

[Storm]

@Storm

Please change your avatar. Having the same avatar as someone else creates a lot of unnecessarily and unfair confusion.

Also, for future reference, day 1 claiming, particularly important power roles, is considered in extremely bad taste and is bad for your own faction. In general, I've noticed a lot of posting by you in this thread that has been rather destructive to the game and I've been told by numerous users that they are upset by this. Please do not make posts with the sole purpose of muddying the game.

Thanks.

So when Malon Does it its okay?

 

[Jamie]

So when Malon Does it its okay?

Malon changed his avatar and his claim was a. an (albeit poor) fakeclaim and b. he didn't do it two times in a row. I don't know if you are fakeclaiming, but either way, the play was bad. No one is angry at you, as a mafia mod, I'm just trying to explain that it's negative game behaviour that bothers people.

 

[Mipha]

So when Malon Does it its okay?

Uh no. I was told to stop. Not by Rep, Mind you, but I still was told to and I obeyed.

 

[kokirion]

My problem with kokirion's solution is that couldn't their be a role disabler on the mafia side? Would'nt they would use that ability on of the doctors (if they are both doctors) and then kill the other one? I mean, they would still have to guess who is protecting who but isn't that a possible solution?

You are right. I came to the same conclusion right after posting, but I did not want to bring it up yet until I had a solid solution to that problem. Sadly, I couldn't find one, but I still think my strategy is the best option we have so far.
Let's run the following scenarios:

1) (both are genuinely doctor). It is true that in this case a mafia roleblocker could block one and kill the other. Sad but true. However, in the current circumstances it looks like we're already gonna kill one today anyway, and in that case they'd probably just kill of the other tonight. If we don't lynch them and let the mafia handle it, at least that makes our hands free to lynch someone different and we will gather information. If one dies tonight, namely, we will almost know for sure that either one of the 2 is mafia (and so the other was never protected) or the mafia has a roleblocker. Too bad we might not be able to save them if the mafia has an RB, but we do will have obtained this knowledge during the first night... might prove a helpful asset for later during the game.

2) (1 is lying but still town)
This case here would just be stupid. But let's assume one of the 2 felt desperate and because he/she really only knew of the doctors role and how much we treasure that, mistakenly thought that would be a good claim. I don't rule this out. Then the system doesn't work, but if the mafia does not have an RB they will probably leave them alone (and then the doctor will survive!!!), and if they do will at the very least have to wast his ability on one of them. If we do not use the strategy I proposed, they won't have to because their kill is certain to happen. And, same for in the 1st scenario, we will have evidence that they might indeed have an RB this game.

3) (1 is secretly scum)
Then the mafia knows they can just kill of the other and probably will. But we will know that too. That they either have an RB or the remaining one is scum.
To deal with this, we can ask the cop to investigate the remaining of the 2, in case one gets nightkilled. The cop does not have to tell us, but can do so far later in the game. In the meanwhile, we will just treat the remaining player as scum and he/she will therefore have no influence in the game. We can always kill that player later, the game doesn't end before all 4 (I assume there are 4) mafia members are dead, killing just 1 is probably pointless. Knowing that there's a big chance he/she is scum, we simply don't trust him anymore. Like a known mafia. And in the meanwhile, in the case that this player actually does is another doctor, by keeping him/her alive he can still use his action at night.

My scum style, huh? I did not know I had one. c:

Anyway, regarding your suggestion. I think it is clever, however, to me it would require me to trust in both of the role claims in order to go with that strategy. As it stands though, I cannot trust either one of them right now seeing as they both not only claim to be the same role, but the same colour too. I think there is a very good chance that one of them is Mafia. For one of them to be another Town role, well, that would make absolutely no sense to me, and I do not see how both could be Mafia. So in my eyes, it is almost certain that one of them is the real Doctor, while the other one is scum. Both of these two players will die very early on in the game no matter how we do this, so I say we get it over with as soon as we can so that we can actually get started with the game as soon as possible.

To be fair, yes this looks really scummy in my eyes. Only the mafia benefits right now from making us lynch storm/malon. We will waste a precious lynch and in the case they're both really townies the mafia then can kill off the last one during the night. and with posts like yours they can brush it of as a "new start" while actually having taken care of both doctors.
Yes the situation is bad. Yes I would like to start over too. But we no longer can, let's at least make as much use of them as we are still able to. Anyone trying to push the town to do otherwise is scum in my eyes.

Unvote
Vote: Pendio

I'm a dude though.

This does it. Lies.

 

[Soul]

You are right. I came to the same conclusion right after posting, but I did not want to bring it up yet until I had a solid solution to that problem. Sadly, I couldn't find one, but I still think my strategy is the best option we have so far.
Let's run the following scenarios:

1) (both are genuinely doctor). It is true that in this case a mafia roleblocker could block one and kill the other. Sad but true. However, in the current circumstances it looks like we're already gonna kill one today anyway, and in that case they'd probably just kill of the other tonight. If we don't lynch them and let the mafia handle it, at least that makes our hands free to lynch someone different and we will gather information. If one dies tonight, namely, we will almost know for sure that either one of the 2 is mafia (and so the other was never protected) or the mafia has a roleblocker. Too bad we might not be able to save them if the mafia has an RB, but we do will have obtained this knowledge during the first night... might prove a helpful asset for later during the game.

2) (1 is lying but still town)
This case here would just be stupid. But let's assume one of the 2 felt desperate and because he/she really only knew of the doctors role and how much we treasure that, mistakenly thought that would be a good claim. I don't rule this out. Then the system doesn't work, but if the mafia does not have an RB they will probably leave them alone (and then the doctor will survive!!!), and if they do will at the very least have to wast his ability on one of them. If we do not use the strategy I proposed, they won't have to because their kill is certain to happen. And, same for in the 1st scenario, we will have evidence that they might indeed have an RB this game.

Based on both players' behaviour in the last game, I think this is most likely to be the case. I personally believe Malon's statement to be genuine and Storm to be another town role.

3) (1 is secretly scum)
Then the mafia knows they can just kill of the other and probably will. But we will know that too. That they either have an RB or the remaining one is scum.
To deal with this, we can ask the cop to investigate the remaining of the 2, in case one gets nightkilled. The cop does not have to tell us, but can do so far later in the game. In the meanwhile, we will just treat the remaining player as scum and he/she will therefore have no influence in the game. We can always kill that player later, the game doesn't end before all 4 (I assume there are 4) mafia members are dead, killing just 1 is probably pointless. Knowing that there's a big chance he/she is scum, we simply don't trust him anymore. Like a known mafia. And in the meanwhile, in the case that this player actually does is another doctor, by keeping him/her alive he can still use his action at night.

The chances for both of them to survive the first night are very low, because
1. Both of them need to infact be doctors.
2. Both of them need to agree to use this technique (do you? @Malon @Storm).
3. There can't be a roleblocker in the mafia.

While I find your efforts to save both of them or at least get as much information as possible out of the scenario admirable, I disagree with your statement that only the mafia would benefit from having us lynch Storm or Malon today. To the contrary, if they have a roleblocker (and I think in a large game like this, it's highly likely that they do), the best course of action for them would be to lynch someone else today. This gives them:

1. A killed townie, potentially a powerrole if they get lucky.
2. An easy nightkill on the doctor, most likely Malon.
3. A town that will be convinced Storm is mafia and will lynch him on their own on Day 2.

It's in the mafia's best interest to keep suspicious town players alive, since those have the highest chance of being lynched by the town instead of one of their own.

With all that said, you do still make some pretty valid points, and seeing as I don't believe either of them to be mafia based on experience playing with them in the previous game, it might still be worthwile to go for it. The problem is, is there a good target to focus on? You've set your eyes on Pendio:

To be fair, yes this looks really scummy in my eyes. Only the mafia benefits right now from making us lynch storm/malon. We will waste a precious lynch and in the case they're both really townies the mafia then can kill off the last one during the night. and with posts like yours they can brush it of as a "new start" while actually having taken care of both doctors.
Yes the situation is bad. Yes I would like to start over too. But we no longer can, let's at least make as much use of them as we are still able to. Anyone trying to push the town to do otherwise is scum in my eyes.

Unvote
Vote: Pendio

I can't say I'm completely sold on him to be honest. Pendio has quite the reputation around here, as do you by the way, so it's certainly feasible to suspect him of making a play like this as a scum member. I don't think there's enough grounds for a lynch, however, because his reasoning makes perfect sense for someone who has never played with Storm before, and just lynching him would potentially get rid of one of our strongest players - just what the mafia would like. Right, kokirion?

FoS: kokirion

 

[kokirion]

Well, you have a point. But have you played Green Lantern mafia? We were super lucky having a mafia team of Pendio, me, Vergo and Crusader there. And due to this mentality to keep experienced players alive, we had the easiest whitewash I've ever seen.

That game learned us that this mentality can also be very dangerous.
Besides, what if I get killed tonight? It would be a pity if I would never have shared my thoughts then. Rather throw them in public so that at least my efforts wouldn't have been completely useless.

Pendio is usually calm and the one set aside his emotions to find a solution. He's not doing that. He can do much better. Which makes me wonder if that's on purpose

 

[ectoBiologist]

Well what I perceived as value of counter claiming was to prevent a mafia member from tricking you all. Also, I wouldn't sacrifice myself even to remove a power role. I'm not that kind of player.

Who is the Mafia member? Viral for starting the Storm Speed Lynch Club, or whatever it was called? Because that honestly wouldn't even work out in his favor if he really was Mafia, because it was just Day 1. Everyone would have unvoted by the Night phase. It's people claiming and counter-claiming that causes actual issues, and then someone ends up getting lynched who was really Town. Counter-claiming did nothing but cause more and more problems that is just too much for Day 1. You guys took the seriousness of this from 0 straight to 100 by doing that, and now the Mafia might very well be ready to lynch Storm for real. We have no idea. You guys already caused problems the first game, and now the second game, and I get you guys are new, but I am too. This is my second game as well. And I survived pretty well last game without giving up my role at a moment's notice. The point I'm trying to make is, don't do that next time, okay guys?

 

[ectoBiologist]

You are right. I came to the same conclusion right after posting, but I did not want to bring it up yet until I had a solid solution to that problem. Sadly, I couldn't find one, but I still think my strategy is the best option we have so far.
Let's run the following scenarios:

1) (both are genuinely doctor). It is true that in this case a mafia roleblocker could block one and kill the other. Sad but true. However, in the current circumstances it looks like we're already gonna kill one today anyway, and in that case they'd probably just kill of the other tonight. If we don't lynch them and let the mafia handle it, at least that makes our hands free to lynch someone different and we will gather information. If one dies tonight, namely, we will almost know for sure that either one of the 2 is mafia (and so the other was never protected) or the mafia has a roleblocker. Too bad we might not be able to save them if the mafia has an RB, but we do will have obtained this knowledge during the first night... might prove a helpful asset for later during the game.

2) (1 is lying but still town)
This case here would just be stupid. But let's assume one of the 2 felt desperate and because he/she really only knew of the doctors role and how much we treasure that, mistakenly thought that would be a good claim. I don't rule this out. Then the system doesn't work, but if the mafia does not have an RB they will probably leave them alone (and then the doctor will survive!!!), and if they do will at the very least have to wast his ability on one of them. If we do not use the strategy I proposed, they won't have to because their kill is certain to happen. And, same for in the 1st scenario, we will have evidence that they might indeed have an RB this game.

3) (1 is secretly scum)
Then the mafia knows they can just kill of the other and probably will. But we will know that too. That they either have an RB or the remaining one is scum.
To deal with this, we can ask the cop to investigate the remaining of the 2, in case one gets nightkilled. The cop does not have to tell us, but can do so far later in the game. In the meanwhile, we will just treat the remaining player as scum and he/she will therefore have no influence in the game. We can always kill that player later, the game doesn't end before all 4 (I assume there are 4) mafia members are dead, killing just 1 is probably pointless. Knowing that there's a big chance he/she is scum, we simply don't trust him anymore. Like a known mafia. And in the meanwhile, in the case that this player actually does is another doctor, by keeping him/her alive he can still use his action at night.

I'd say, given what we have, they are both Town, but one is really the Doctor, and the other isn't. It seems like either Storm may very well be Doctor again, and Malon might be trying to protect him (And sort of failing, it seems) by saying he is the Doctor and casting attention on himself to confuse the Mafia, or that Storm is some other role, maybe even Mafia, who claimed Doctor and now Malon, the real Doctor, is fighting back. Malon said himself that he was trying to stop a Mafia member from "tricking us all," which either means Viral who started the Storm lynching thing, or Storm himself, now that I think about it.

The other two possibilities are possible, but not as likely I'd say.

 

[Soul]

Well, you have a point. But have you played Green Lantern mafia? We were super lucky having a mafia team of Pendio, me, Vergo and Crusader there. And due to this mentality to keep experienced players alive, we had the easiest whitewash I've ever seen.

That game learned us that this mentality can also be very dangerous.
Besides, what if I get killed tonight? It would be a pity if I would never have shared my thoughts then. Rather throw them in public so that at least my efforts wouldn't have been completely useless.

Pendio is usually calm and the one set aside his emotions to find a solution. He's not doing that. He can do much better. Which makes me wonder if that's on purpose

I'm not saying we can't lynch either of you because you're potentially strong town players. I'm saying that starting a lynch bandwagon for Pendio would be very convenient if you had scummy intentions (not saying you do, just throwing out the possibility). I'd rather not lynch Pendio on day one if there isn't a strong case against him, and at the moment there isn't in my eyes.

And I never said you couldn't share your thoughts either, I don't know where you're getting that from. I appreciate all the thinking you're doing. You're coming up with possible solutions to our Day One dilemma, which is very useful to the town. I'm just throwing out the possibility that your arguments don't necessarily point towards a town alignment, and given your reputation here, you can't fault me of being wary of you in particular.