Super Smash Mafia 2: Originals vs Clones - Game Thread

[Eduarda]

Tbh, Frozen's post seemed really calculated and careful. If Sadia, Doc, and Frozen aren't Mafia, I'll eat my hat instead of Hero of Legend.

 

[Jirohnagi]

probably just because i'm just suspicious of him lol

it just doesn't make sense to me to blindly trust someone who is third party, without letting the person getting accused defend himself. It's one thing to trust a cop, it's another to trust THIRD PARTY. Not even a probable townie - she's third party. I don't care if she says she's helping the town, 3rd party is unreliable, whether in role or in actions.

sorry. i mass quoted as i read (just like i did again =^) ) so I just picked out what I wanted to respond to and typed the post after so it's probable that i'll miss something

oic

wtf is this post

lmfao really?

wtf is this how can you pay so little attention

why are you playing if you're not going to pay attention (this also goes for pendio and viral who barely meet the post quota of ONE)

same, no mafia would ever play like that

Would like to point gumball, i don't generally play mafia games, literally 2nd game so obviously i'm not gonna be completely on the ball you people spam posts more than malon in the LL Lounge, so it's hard for someone who doesn't lurk 24/7 to keep up, as is i stated twice i likely missed a page.

((My bad, I had some of a post written out when you first asked me, but then my sister is visiting so I was busy with her. Here's what my initial post that I meant to have ready))


((My bad, I had some of a post written out when you first asked me, but then my sister is visiting so I was busy with her. Here's what my initial post that I meant to have ready))

So, I haven't been paying much attention to Toxic and will definitely try to reread through and look at him, but I was focusing on the two people who are damaged within your parameters, Sadia and Cthulhu. Cthulhu has outright said that he did not visit you and based on Sadia's post about Johnny, I imagine she would have mentioned if she visited you, if she were town.

Cthulhu, as you pointed out yesterday, Eduarda, made only one post about ALIT (that I found, and didn't see much more than this).

In this post, he essentially says that all suspicion against ALIT is ridiculous, mentions his suspicion against Eduarda, and then suggests an inactive lynch. I know that the basis on ALIT's lynch wasn't the strongest, but to suggest that there is nothing suspicious about his slip-up rubs me the wrong way.
------------------------------------
((What I had written earlier))
Now, based off of his recent activity, I'm still not feeling good about Cthulhu. That may be because I can barely understand a lot of what he's saying, but its causing me quite a bit of confusion. I also find it suspicious that it wasn't until this came up that he began posting a lot more frequently. I don't know if this is common to him, but it still makes me suspicious.


Now Sadia didn't say much about ALIT yesterday, probably as much as the next person. She said she'd vote ALIT come the deadline. But I did notice Sadia was grasping at straws a bit, such as suggesting that HoL and Regal may be scumbuds because they both were against spreading damage. Her post about Johnny struck me as scummy as well, especially asking for permission to attack. But someone already talked about that, so I dont want to be redundant.

Honestly, I'd be okay with either of these two for today. I'm leaning towards Cthulhu, but I'm gonna wait to see what Sadia has to say about this situation to finally make a decision on who I think is a better choice.

Find it somewhat amuising you seem to be leaning towards me likely thinking i am working in concert with someone when literally i have no idea what i'm doing half the damn game because i'm playing catchup. As i said in response to gumball, new to this game so you well and truly can't expect gold-plated-mafia-game-brilliance. I play catchup more than i like and due to the amount of posts i tend to miss alot of incriminating evidence.

I also don't believe in judging someone for a single mistake, why should I? It's kinda clear to me that i've made enough mistakes in this game thus far.

I dunno whether you're aiming to whittle down in-experienced players or just want to kill me but it's seems like you are gunning for me for no reason.

I think His response has been good. However, I disagree with his reasoning on Chuchu. The fact that some of his points are (sorry for saying it) incoherent tells me he is working by himself. Obviously not all of them are hard to understand but a good measure of them are. Sorry...

Returning to Doc, in my opinion, he's just laying out his thoughts on the two suspects. Could he be trying to protect Sadia? I'm not too sure. I think focusing on Sadia is for the best and if she does flip scum, we can look into Doc more.

Right now, I'm not that suspicious of him.

^ This, i don't really need to add more to it as Frozen has hit the nail on the head.

Yes. I've been told that if any ability targets me I deal a 50% to 70% damage towards that person. And I cannot be roleblocked because my role is reflexive. It's like a replacement for SK.

Aaaaaah that makes sense.

 

[Justac00lguy]

Ok so if we're to believe Eduarda about her claim, she was targeted during the night and it deflected. It was obvious that this Johnny due to her stating the parameters. Johnny quickly claimed because there was no other option. If he was scum he would obviously have to lie and if he was Town he'd have to claim. I'm having a hard time reading Johnny so far. Something doesn't add up so far, but I can't quite put my finger on it. I'm 50/50 on him so far.

This whole situation isn't adding up. If I'm understanding right, Eduarda's role deflects and damages anywhere inbetween 70-90%. So that points at Johnny, but of course Johnny tried to justify his damage by claiming RB'er. But where did the Mafia kill go? I'm not exactly sure what their damage parameters are and this is our only reference:

Oh wow... Our little friend kokirion took quite the beating last night... yes indeed. He took 1...wait, no, 2 hits? And they were big ones, too! Poor little kokirion! Well, I guess that's the end of you. Turns out he was a good guy, too.

kokirion (146% damage) was Greninja, an Original Mason.

So Koki took two hits totalling 146%. If we assume the Mafia kill accounted for most of that hit then we're looking at least 73% for a Scum night attack. And that's 'at least'. So Pendio, Sadia, and Cuthulu took less damage than this which means they weren't targeted by scum. Judging by this, Johnny and Eduarda are the only two people that could have been hit by Mafia last night unless the Mafia attack didn't go through. Eduarda obviously took a huge hit last night and it's either a Vig/SK/NK. And if Eduarda is telling the truth about her role then I seriously doubt there's a SK as well (still could be though) and we have a Vig claim who said he actually targeted Johnny last night....

Literally what the **** is this mess? According to Eduarda she got hit last night, took damage and deflected it onto Johnny. Johnny is saying that he was a RB'er, so that clears the whole deflecting thing up, right? No because now we have Regal claiming Vig and he said he targeted Johnny. But that doesn't make sense one bit. Johnny is admitting he Roleblocked Eduarda who has a deflective ability which explains the damage amount. But if Regal targeted Johnny on top of this then he would be dead. The thing is no one can say that Regal was Roleblocked because Johnny has already claimed that role and said who he targeted. The only logical way to explain this without any lies (doubtful) is that everyone is being extremely nice and truthful and a some naughty person has a redirect ability and they targeted Regal and it hit Cuthulu or Sadia (still that might be a low damage output for a Vig, I'd expect a one hit kill, but I could be wrong). Or maybe James put in a rule where a Roleblocker cancels out Eduarda's ability and she was instead hit by Mafia. @Eduarda could you say if you have knowledge of this?

---

Point is, either Eduarda, Johnny or Regal are lying most likely. As much as I'm wary of Eduarda, she killed Alit essentially and her questioning allows me and others to analyse who she's interrogating, which is helpful to scum hunt. Whereas I don't think, at the moment, Johnny and Regal are as helpful. However both of you guys have important roles if you're telling the truth, yet most likely, one of you is lying. There has to be a reason for that and I want to find it and the only way is to kill one of you. This is quite possibly the only way to move forward now. So @Johnny Sooshi and @RegalBryant would you like to put your cases forward?

Also @RegalBryant who did you target during the first day?

 

[Johnny Sooshi]

@Johnny Sooshi did you find anything important or noteworthy in my post about Frozen and ALIT's interactions? I'd like to hear your thoughts on them because you seem to have a lot to say

That's the one post I've been meaning to get to. I'll get around to my response later.

Ok so if we're to believe Eduarda about her claim, she was targeted during the night and it deflected. It was obvious that this Johnny due to her stating the parameters. Johnny quickly claimed because there was no other option. If he was scum he would obviously have to lie and if he was Town he'd have to claim. I'm having a hard time reading Johnny so far. Something doesn't add up so far, but I can't quite put my finger on it. I'm 50/50 on him so far.

This whole situation isn't adding up. If I'm understanding right, Eduarda's role deflects and damages anywhere inbetween 70-90%. So that points at Johnny, but of course Johnny tried to justify his damage by claiming RB'er. But where did the Mafia kill go? I'm not exactly sure what their damage parameters are and this is our only reference:


So Koki took two hits totalling 146%. If we assume the Mafia kill accounted for most of that hit then we're looking at least 73% for a Scum night attack. And that's 'at least'. So Pendio, Sadia, and Cuthulu took less damage than this which means they weren't targeted by scum. Judging by this, Johnny and Eduarda are the only two people that could have been hit by Mafia last night unless the Mafia attack didn't go through. Eduarda obviously took a huge hit last night and it's either a Vig/SK/NK. And if Eduarda is telling the truth about her role then I seriously doubt there's a SK as well (still could be though) and we have a Vig claim who said he actually targeted Johnny last night....

Literally what the **** is this mess? According to Eduarda she got hit last night, took damage and deflected it onto Johnny. Johnny is saying that he was a RB'er, so that clears the whole deflecting thing up, right? No because now we have Regal claiming Vig and he said he targeted Johnny. But that doesn't make sense one bit. Johnny is admitting he Roleblocked Eduarda who has a deflective ability which explains the damage amount. But if Regal targeted Johnny on top of this then he would be dead. The thing is no one can say that Regal was Roleblocked because Johnny has already claimed that role and said who he targeted. The only logical way to explain this without any lies (doubtful) is that everyone is being extremely nice and truthful and a some naughty person has a redirect ability and they targeted Regal and it hit Cuthulu or Sadia (still that might be a low damage output for a Vig, I'd expect a one hit kill, but I could be wrong). Or maybe James put in a rule where a Roleblocker cancels out Eduarda's ability and she was instead hit by Mafia. @Eduarda could you say if you have knowledge of this?

---

Point is, either Eduarda, Johnny or Regal are lying most likely. As much as I'm wary of Eduarda, she killed Alit essentially and her questioning allows me and others to analyse who she's interrogating, which is helpful to scum hunt. Whereas I don't think, at the moment, Johnny and Regal are as helpful. However both of you guys have important roles if you're telling the truth, yet most likely, one of you is lying. There has to be a reason for that and I want to find it and the only way is to kill one of you. This is quite possibly the only way to move forward now. So @Johnny Sooshi and @RegalBryant would you like to put your cases forward?

Also @RegalBryant who did you target during the first day?

This is all based on the belief that someone is lying about their role. I know for a fact that I targeted Eduarda. Being unable to defend myself when the day began was frustrating and I claimed because there was no other choice. Finding out that Jamie had messed up Eduarda's damage parameter confused me too because I shouldn't have had that much if it was 50-70%. The explanation for why I took 89% has to be either Regal was blocked or Regal was redirected, and someone used an item or ability that stacked with The damage I took from Eduarda. If a mafia blocker/redirector existed, they wouldn't reveal themselves to the town, so we can't rule out those possibilities. That's how I see the situation.

 

[Frozen Chosen]

Tbh, Frozen's post seemed really calculated and careful. If Sadia, Doc, and Frozen aren't Mafia, I'll eat my hat instead of Hero of Legend.

I can't wait to see that. Although, I do think Sadia is scum.

Ok so if we're to believe Eduarda about her claim, she was targeted during the night and it deflected. It was obvious that this Johnny due to her stating the parameters. Johnny quickly claimed because there was no other option. If he was scum he would obviously have to lie and if he was Town he'd have to claim. I'm having a hard time reading Johnny so far. Something doesn't add up so far, but I can't quite put my finger on it. I'm 50/50 on him so far.

This whole situation isn't adding up. If I'm understanding right, Eduarda's role deflects and damages anywhere inbetween 70-90%. So that points at Johnny, but of course Johnny tried to justify his damage by claiming RB'er. But where did the Mafia kill go? I'm not exactly sure what their damage parameters are and this is our only reference:


So Koki took two hits totalling 146%. If we assume the Mafia kill accounted for most of that hit then we're looking at least 73% for a Scum night attack. And that's 'at least'. So Pendio, Sadia, and Cuthulu took less damage than this which means they weren't targeted by scum. Judging by this, Johnny and Eduarda are the only two people that could have been hit by Mafia last night unless the Mafia attack didn't go through. Eduarda obviously took a huge hit last night and it's either a Vig/SK/NK. And if Eduarda is telling the truth about her role then I seriously doubt there's a SK as well (still could be though) and we have a Vig claim who said he actually targeted Johnny last night....

Literally what the **** is this mess? According to Eduarda she got hit last night, took damage and deflected it onto Johnny. Johnny is saying that he was a RB'er, so that clears the whole deflecting thing up, right? No because now we have Regal claiming Vig and he said he targeted Johnny. But that doesn't make sense one bit. Johnny is admitting he Roleblocked Eduarda who has a deflective ability which explains the damage amount. But if Regal targeted Johnny on top of this then he would be dead. The thing is no one can say that Regal was Roleblocked because Johnny has already claimed that role and said who he targeted. The only logical way to explain this without any lies (doubtful) is that everyone is being extremely nice and truthful and a some naughty person has a redirect ability and they targeted Regal and it hit Cuthulu or Sadia (still that might be a low damage output for a Vig, I'd expect a one hit kill, but I could be wrong). Or maybe James put in a rule where a Roleblocker cancels out Eduarda's ability and she was instead hit by Mafia. @Eduarda could you say if you have knowledge of this?

---

Point is, either Eduarda, Johnny or Regal are lying most likely. As much as I'm wary of Eduarda, she killed Alit essentially and her questioning allows me and others to analyse who she's interrogating, which is helpful to scum hunt. Whereas I don't think, at the moment, Johnny and Regal are as helpful. However both of you guys have important roles if you're telling the truth, yet most likely, one of you is lying. There has to be a reason for that and I want to find it and the only way is to kill one of you. This is quite possibly the only way to move forward now. So @Johnny Sooshi and @RegalBryant would you like to put your cases forward?

Also @RegalBryant who did you target during the first day?

This has also been bothering me. What happened? But I don't think we'll be able to figure it out yet. I've pointed out the possibility of redirecter and some have mentioned modifiers. Yes, someone could be lying, but we won't understand until some new info is brought up. It's good to question it, though.

Do you have any thoughts on Doc or Sadia?

 

[Jirohnagi]

Why is JC always on the fence? Neither there or here, it's like he's deliberately insinuating stuff but not doing it in a way that's really saying what he's for or against.

This is likely a balls up of my actual thought on JC, but i dunno something seems off. JC claims he plays aggressively yet that post doesn't seem agressive.

 

[Jirohnagi]

Wish i knew how to mafia better i'll be honest there.

 

[Johnny Sooshi]

I don't know if this post has any use, but here ya'll go.

---

Right now I'm going to look into Frozen and ALIT's interaction. Though ALIT is scum, I think that their interactions are note worthy and possibly indicative of Frozen's alignment. But most of this is just speculation. Just something to keep in mind as a possibility. So I don't think this in itself should be reasons for attacking Frozen just yet.

Spoiler

Here is ALIT's first post mentioning something substantial on Frozen. I'm going to put the times he mentioned Johnny too, because how closely related ALIT made them. At this point of time, obviously, there's no pressure whatsoever on ALIT.

From this post we can say that Johnny isn't sitting too well with ALIT. That's all good and dandy. Frozen he feels good about but he's keeping a bit of a watch on him. It's important to note that ALIT doesn't put much genuine suspicion on Frozen. He mostly fills that part in with "but I'm always suspicious of him so it could just be nothing". A safe move if both of them are scum. If Frozen flips, he can point out he was suspicious of him. But while Frozen's under attack ALIT can point out that the suspicion isn't much.


Here, ALIT expresses that he feels best about Frozen. I believe it can be safely assumed that this is out of the whole town. Now obviously an experienced Mafia player wouldn't want to say they think their scum bud is most town-like. You can take this statement both ways. The way ALIT shifts any possible focus slightly off of Frozen to counter his statement before. But also him even mentioning Frozen with such a positive light indicating Frozen may not be associated with him.

I included the first part of the quote because here, again, ALIT brings up that his past games may have caused him to have a more biased view on a few people. I feel like by him saying this, he's implying for people to take all of his suspicions with a grain of salt. It also gives him a good cushion to fall back to if someone agrees with his suspicions on a scum bud.

---

Now, after this part, ALIT slips up and is under suspicion. It's important to note his stance changes on players at this point.


I haven't player TF2 so sorry if I misinterpreted this post but from what I gathered, you're saying that though you noticed the slip up, it's possible that ALIT could simply have been VT and made this slip up?

Either way this whole post is really just one big blob of speculation, but if my interpretation of your post is right, you seem to be providing a pretty logical excuse as to why ALIT might have slipped. Fair enough. Others did that too. But something to keep in mind.


Now this is the big giant thing. Frozen was the first to vote for ALIT. When I first saw this I was surprised. There were still over 2 days to go for the end of the day. But I thought maybe his opinion on waiting was different.

So is he town going for a good lynch or scum washing his hands off? I didn't confirm him as townie just because he was the first to vote ALIT. I've seen in many cases in the scum QT, when a scum gets caught in their net, they encourage their fellow members to go for them. In Avengers, when Frozen was caught in a net, Viral, Frozen's scumbud, voted for him immediately without a second thought. Of course, Frozen could have taken a page off of Viral's book.

It's also note worthy that at the time of his vote, both I and Sadia expressed willingness to vote for ALIT. So it was pretty obvious that at one point there was going to be a bandwagon on ALIT. And since people again and again say the person at the beginning of a scum wagon is most likely to be town and the person at the end of a scum wagon is most likely to be Mafia, it would be a great opportunity for scum to jump first on a wagon that they can smell happening from miles away.

Also noteworthy that Frozen had not been convinced of ALIT's guilt before this, and in fact offered a reason as to why he might be innocent. And it didn't work.


I don't have anything to comment on this. But it's another interaction so you guys can make your own conclusions from it.



FroCho had changed his stance much before ALIT expressed his opinion that he thinks FroCho is likely to be town. So it isn't something new that was brought up. And there had literally been only two pages of day 2. So how can ALIT conclude Frozen is playing follower this game day? This new opinion which only appeared after ALIT was pressured seems to be directly opposite from ALIT's opinion from before he was pressured. He seems to be singling out FroCho.

Now this interaction right here has me confused. For one, he's still saying "oh but my suspicions could be invalid so nevermind but this shows im totally not associated with him" but at the same time, I can see a Mafia doing this to a town, too. FroCho was the first to vote ALIT so obviously ALIT would focus on FroCho more under this new pressure.

But the sudden switch really doesn't sit well with me. This post has such a huge WIFOM associated with it, it's kinda useless to try to unravel. But we can't ignore that ALIT may be trying to put distance from him and Frozen, the same as Frozen did with his vote against ALIT. Is Frozen the Godfather?


Not a good reason in my opinion. There was so much more time to wait for. But I can see his reasoning so I won't push him for this. Just another thing to note in case if Frozen's scum. Attacking ALIT first would be great for him.


This again seems like a good defense. I think Frozen defended himself well here. But again we can't ignore it's really weird he attacked ALIT so quickly. I tried to go back to see if Frozen gave his opinion on a quick KO earlier or not, but he didn't say anything along those lines so there's nothing to compare his actions with.


This is a good post. To me, it's working in Frozen's favour. If he's scum, pointing out that his scum bud's death would confirm me may not be too helpful to Mafia. He could have also shown suspicion towards me but he chose not to. I guess it's also worthy to note that he had a bit of heat on him himself at this point with two people questioning his attack. So as Mafia, he would probably have tried to do whatever seemed the most town. Gummy and him were the only ones arguing to not knock me out. Going against the flow might not have been seen as very town. But I know he's a good player as scum so I'm still taking this with a grain of salt.



This is another good post which works in Frozen's favour. He sticks to his initial reasoning. Town trying to convince everyone to vote for ALIT, or scum trying to defend his position more to get people off his case? Unsure.

---

Now here, ALIT is about to die. He starts giving that last big push to try to survive. This huge thing is just a mess but I'll throw the posts together and see if there's anything at all to conclude from them.





I didn't want to get into this territory. But we already pretty much know one person's alignment out of the three ALIT brought up (Johnny). He brought up Frozen, Johnny, and Bryant. I want to say that within these 3 people, one of them is scum and 2 are town. Cushioning one scum within two town would be a good idea. It might clear off that scum since they have been thrown in a group with 2 town. And out of the three, I think Johnny and Byrant were brought under the most fire. It would be good to bring up town members who are most likely to get lynched earlier than the scum so others can look back at this group and assume everyone here is town.

Again this is just a huge speculation. There's way too many variables in this whole post. It's just something I've been meaning to look into since ALIT's death. But I've put some thoughts together and hopefully you guys can make your own minds about it. I'm going to look into someone else now. But a bit later.

This is good speculation. I could see Frozen playing the town, given the opportunity. If he and ALIT are scum buds, I could see these posts working. It's something to watch out for in the future.

 

[RegalBryant]

wouldn't it make more sense(or at least be more fitting for Poe's Law) that I was the one who hit you, Johnny, and you were the one redirected?

Point is, either Eduarda, Johnny or Regal are lying most likely. As much as I'm wary of Eduarda, she killed Alit essentially and her questioning allows me and others to analyse who she's interrogating, which is helpful to scum hunt. Whereas I don't think, at the moment, Johnny and Regal are as helpful. However both of you guys have important roles if you're telling the truth, yet most likely, one of you is lying. There has to be a reason for that and I want to find it and the only way is to kill one of you. This is quite possibly the only way to move forward now. So @Johnny Sooshi and @RegalBryant would you like to put your cases forward?

Also @RegalBryant who did you target during the first day?

I didnt' target anyone the first day.

This is all based on the belief that someone is lying about their role. I know for a fact that I targeted Eduarda. Being unable to defend myself when the day began was frustrating and I claimed because there was no other choice. Finding out that Jamie had messed up Eduarda's damage parameter confused me too because I shouldn't have had that much if it was 50-70%. The explanation for why I took 89% has to be either Regal was blocked or Regal was redirected, and someone used an item or ability that stacked with The damage I took from Eduarda. If a mafia blocker/redirector existed, they wouldn't reveal themselves to the town, so we can't rule out those possibilities. That's how I see the situation.

I couldn't have been redirected, as the only people who fit in my parameters are you and Eduarda, and if I hit Eduarda I'd be injured by her ability. However, it's possible that *you* could've been redirected, yes?

 

[RegalBryant]

shoot, i forgot that i already put the redirection commentary above the quote

 

[Frozen Chosen]

I couldn't have been redirected, as the only people who fit in my parameters are you and Eduarda, and if I hit Eduarda I'd be injured by her ability. However, it's possible that *you* could've been redirected, yes?

I think you are spot on with the redirection. If there was any kind of redirection, it hit Sooshi. But that's not to say you couldn't have been role blocked by another role blocker. However, it seems to me that the simplest solution is redirection... Unfortunately, we don't have anyone confirmed as that role. Maybe it was an item?

 

[Frozen Chosen]

By the way, no one should claim redirector at this time if there is one. I don't want to give Mafia anothe

 

[Johnny Sooshi]

wouldn't it make more sense(or at least be more fitting for Poe's Law) that I was the one who hit you, Johnny, and you were the one redirected?

You're right, I didn't consider that in my post. Hell, I could have been blocked too if there is a mafia RB.

 

[Johnny Sooshi]

I didnt' target anyone the first day.

So if you didn't target anyone night 1, then who did? Kokrion took a lot of damage. It would make sense that it was two attackers. He's a mason, and while he had a hidden ability that Libk hinted at, it's impossible to say whether he targeted Eduarda. If the mafia attacked him (it would make sense if they did; he's smart, vet player, pretty good once he gets going), then either he used that hidden ability on Eduarda or he was attacked by someone else who does high damage. So we probably do have an SK in this game.

 

[LittleGumball]

Would like to point gumball, i don't generally play mafia games, literally 2nd game so obviously i'm not gonna be completely on the ball you people spam posts more than malon in the LL Lounge, so it's hard for someone who doesn't lurk 24/7 to keep up, as is i stated twice i likely missed a page.

that doesn't mean you can't figure out what day it is smh

I've been busy this entire weekend and I've still been able to catch up.

If I'm understanding right, Eduarda's role deflects and damages anywhere inbetween 70-90%.

nope that got corrected, it's 50-70% now so the culprits are Sadia and Cthulhu.

By the way, no one should claim redirector at this time if there is one. I don't want to give Mafia anothe

THEY KILLED HIM MID-SENTENCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You're right, I didn't consider that in my post. Hell, I could have been blocked too if there is a mafia RB.

my point exactly



also that is actually very curious, if Regal didn't give Koki the extra damage who did? Maybe it's some kind of modified strongman ability for the mafia? But if that's the case why would they waste it night 1? (Maybe they just really really wanted a kill?) (actually i think it would probably make sense for mafia to use it n1)