Spoiler Skyward Sword Ending Discussion Thread (OoT and SS Spoilers)

[DuckNoises]

In order to explain the ending of Skyward Sword, we must first acknowledge that there are two primary views on the nature of time, called A-theory and B-theory respectively. A-theory, the more common theory (and what is generally considered the “mainstream” theory on time), is generally not as complex as B-theory, which has led to much of the confusion surrounding Skyward Sword’s ending. It is important to note that the Zelda universe operates under B-theory, as confusing as it is. Rather than explaining the ins and outs of B-theory, it will suffice to explain merely how time operates in the context of Ocarina of Time and Skyward Sword. One of the best explanations of time in the Zelda universe comes from Sheik in Ocarina of Time:

Past, present, future...
The Master Sword is a ship with
which you can sail upstream and
downstream through time's river...
The port for that ship is in the
Temple of Time...
To restore the Desert Colossus
and enter the Spirit Temple, you
must travel back through time's
flow...

This establishes a metaphor for the flow of time, as a river. Note that the Master Sword and the Door of Time are essentially one in the same, in that the Master Sword in OoT acts as the key to the Door of Time. We will consult OoT for understanding most of how the Door of Time works, and how it remains largely consistent with how time works in SS.

Consider that when you travel from child to adult in Ocarina of Time, you are changing what is the relative present, that is to say, what appears to be currently happening, regardless of where you are in the overall scheme of time, or where you are overall on the “river.” Wherever you are is the “ship” that Sheik refers to, as you are sailing up and down the river of time. Note that when you go from adult to child in OoT, in putting the Master Sword in the Pedestal of Time, you are “rewinding” time – and the relative future (the adulthood of the Hero of Time) remains in a sort of chronological stasis until you sail the ship back there by removing the Master Sword from the pedestal, when it becomes the relative present again.

This is how it works in Skyward Sword, as well; once you return to the relative future from the past, the world remains largely as it was before you went in the Door of Time, with some changes. When child Link plants a Magic Bean in OoT, the plant is not only there as an adult (the relative future), but also fully grown; this can be observed in the changes made at the end of SS.
However, traveling through the Door of Time does not create itself a split in the timeline in and of itself; the split in the split timeline is not caused by the time travel of the Master Sword, but rather by the magic used by Zelda at the end of OoT to return the Hero of Time to his childhood. Consider the following analogy:

Imagine the events of OoT before Zelda sends Link back to his childhood as a television program on a given channel. The time travel of the Master Sword merely rewinds or fast-forwards through the television program, without creating an alternate television program, merely changing bits and pieces of the program as we go along. When Zelda sends the Hero of Time back to his childhood, she is not changing the relative present as the Master Sword does, and hence, is not rewinding the program. Instead, Zelda changes the channel on which the Hero of Time finds himself; the Hero of Time is now on a different channel with a program that is identical to an earlier part of the program on the original channel. This new channel has a different schedule, and the program the Hero of Time is presently in has a different relative future than the relative future of the original program, because the circumstances are different. Note that it is not the initial rewinding that constitutes the split; it is the combination of rewinding and changing the channel that constitutes the split. In returning to the “time is a river” metaphor, Zelda has not caused Link’s ship to sail upstream, but rather she has taken it out of its place in the river, and inserted it in a different place further back on the river.

Before we continue, let’s recap what happens in the back story of SS. In what is the relative past, Hylia sealed away Demise in a great war, which has just recently ended when you first travel through the Door of Time. Hylia also sent part of the land that contained her chosen people into the sky, what becomes Skyloft, in order to protect them from the war. Demise’s true form is no longer present, and only his spirit, “The Imprisoned” is left.
Zelda travels through the Door of Time, and changes what she perceives as the relative present, and she is no longer present in the future, because Zelda’s “ship” has moved downstream.

It is important to remember that Link destroys Demise in the future with the Triforce; he is completely dead through the power of the entire Triforce, and cannot return in that time period. This is why Ghirahim travels through the Door of Time with Zelda to remove the seal from Demise in the past, as he is still alive. A common question no doubt ensues from the ending of the game:

Doesn’t Link sealing away Demise in the past prevent him from ever going on his quest in the first place?

This is one such “time paradox” that people commonly see, because according to A-theory, this would disrupt the space-time continuum; in B-theory, under which Zelda time operates, this does not interrupt the space-time continuum. What happens in a given time period is considered a fait accomplit, because the Door of Time’s mechanism cannot undo events that have already happened before Link entered the Door of Time, such as destroying Demise with the Triforce and returning the Statue of The Goddess from Skyloft to the Sealed Grounds. This is consistent with how the Door of Time worked in OoT; even though the Hero of Time prevented Ganondorf’s assault of Castle Town on the Child Timeline, this does not change the fact that Ganondorf was successful on the Adult Timeline, because the Door of Time (in OoT) operates on the strand of time (or part of the river) that is the Adult Timeline. This means that there is not significant change to warrant a split in the timeline; in Skyward Sword, Link essentially changed little by going back in time and defeating Demise. In the back story to the game, recall that Hylia sealed away Demise during the war, and this is still the case when Link travels through the Door of Time. Demise’s seal is then broken by Ghirahim, and Demise is resealed in the Master Sword, and his spirit gradually decays. The only fact that has truly changed is who sealed Demise away; one would think that being sealed in the Master Sword and decaying would also disrupt the space-time continuum, but Demise was already destroyed by the Triforce in the future, and that is a fait accomplit –it cannot be changed. This means that Demise’s defeat is consistent over time; he was destroyed in the past, and he remains destroyed in the future, even if his destruction was by different means. If it were not for the operations of the Door of Time, there would indeed be a time paradox, but the Door of Time operates under B-theory and not A-theory.

However, there are other changes made at the end; Link places the Master Sword in the Sealed Temple, and returns to a future where it is still there. However, Link forged the Master Sword in the future, so returning to a future in which the Master Sword was already forged does not change the space-time continuum. Between the relative future and the relative past, there exists only one Master Sword; Link merely moved it from the future to the past, and returned to a future where the Master Sword’s purpose was already served. Since the Master Sword remains unused between the time he placed it in the pedestal and the time in which it is observed in the future, we can assume that it has not been moved from the pedestal. We also know this is true because Impa would have made a remark if that were the case.

We know that small changes occurring in the ending of SS operate under the same mechanism as do Magic Beans in OoT; such an example is Zelda’s bracelet being given to Impa in the past, and it remaining in the future.
Remember, the key difference between endings like OoT and SS is that the changes that happened were not significantly different, because the changes that were made in the past complement events that happened in the relative future, and match their outcomes. Observe the list:
• Demise is sealed and decays, Demise is destroyed in the future
• The Master Sword is removed from the future, brought to the past, and left in the past such that it exists in the future and sufficient time has passed for Demise’s spirit to die
• Fi no longer exists in the future, because she went back into the Master Sword in the past. This does not change the events of Skyward Sword, because they have already been achieved in the time period in which Link will return to.
• The Statue of the Goddess is in the Sealed Grounds in the future because that is where it was before Link went through the Door of Time; events that occurred in the future before Link went through the Door of Time cannot be undone.

In conclusion, we can determine that there is in fact no time paradox at the end of Skyward Sword, because it operates under B-theory.
Feel free to post questions and comments.

 

[Night Owl]

That actually makes sense. In oracle of ages it worked much the same way. Only the time traveler knows the whole truth though. As before link planted the seedling in the past groose talks about how you could grow a tree there. and after you plant the seedling, groose acts as if it was always there.

 

[zeldahuman]

That actually makes sense. In oracle of ages it worked much the same way. Only the time traveler knows the whole truth though. As before link planted the seedling in the past groose talks about how you could grow a tree there. and after you plant the seedling, groose acts as if it was always there.

And that backs up DuckNoises' theory; you take the seed out of the future, bring it into the past, plant it, and then, when returning to the "present," Groose acted like the tree was there the whole time because it WAS there the whole time, thanks to Link planting the seed in the past.

 

[Night Owl]

And that backs up DuckNoises' theory; you take the seed out of the future, bring it into the past, plant it, and then, when returning to the "present," Groose acted like the tree was there the whole time because it WAS there the whole time, thanks to Link planting the seed in the past.

That's what I meant. I wasn't trying to disprove it or anything.
I was just showing how only the traveler understands the changes that he makes. Groose had no clue anything was different because he hadn't followed Link to the past to see the change take place. It does alter the flow of the river but not enough to change any major events. Link giving the fruit to the thunder dragon only altered the flow enough to keep the dragon from becoming a pile of bones, but that may be considered a major event as the thunder dragon will be able to do what it couldn't after it died. Link does need to be careful when altering the flow of time.

 

[Locke]

How do we define "significantly different"? If Demise being sealed in the Master Sword instead of the sealing spike isn't significantly different, why is Ganondorf being sealed in the Twilight Realm instead of the Sacred Realm significantly different? How much does an event have to change in order to create a paradox or split?

We know that small changes occurring in the ending of SS operate under the same mechanism as do Magic Beans in OoT; such an example is Zelda’s bracelet being given to Impa in the past, and it remaining in the future.

Zelda's bracelet is an example of a constant, not a change. Impa always had the bracelet, even when you first met her at the beginning of the game. Zelda giving it to her only fulfilled what the timeline expected; it did not create a "small change" like the magic beans did. Another example is Zelda' crystal in the back room of the Sealed Temple. There are examples of the OoT bean mechanic as well though, such as the Tree of Life.

I'd also like to point out two other inconsistencies I found regarding the ending:
The first, just an odd small one, is that while Impa states that you returned to a time just after Hylia sealed Demise, Demise claims that he has been waiting to be revived for eons. Is this simply a case of the writers and/or translators/localizers messing up, or is there a logical explanation?
Second - and this may be important in this discussion if taken seriously - After Ghirahim goes to the past to revive Demise, old Impa is quite worried that Demise will return and destroy everything. Is she just too frightened to realize that everything would have been destroyed by now if he had succeeded? Surely if Ghirahim had changed the past, it would be reflected in the future: she would know that Demise was sealed in the Master Sword (like in the case with Groose and the Tree of Life described in above posts).

 

[Red Baron]

The two inconsistencies: Zelda's bracelet and her amber cocoon. I'm willing to chalk these up to Nintendo wanting to add foreshadowing details, and not giving a damn about whether or not it really makes any sense. There's no proof for that, until they come out and say it, but that's how I read it.

Aside from those, the key to understanding time-travel in Zelda is knowing that the gate of time works one way, and whatever Zelda did at the end of OoT works another way. I'm probably reiterating what Ducknoises said, just with different wording. The door of time works on the same thread of time, you travel back along the same thread and your actions alter the thread but do not cause any splits (no matter how important or unimportant the event). So when you plant that tree in SS, there is no split time-line of tree/no tree, you simply alter the current time-line from "no tree" to "tree". The door of time also only works between two relatively fixed points, you cannot seem to choose where it takes you to - but they aren't entirely fixed (if you spend two days in the past, the next time you return to the past you don't return to the first of those two days, you return to where you left off).

Zelda's ocarina song is a whole other magic trick. She picks the exact point of when to put you back, and starts you a new thread. You can no longer rewrite that future.

The following is entirely story-line theory: the scene where Zelda sends Link back takes place in the sacred realm, so when we see young Link then replace the Master Sword he is not using the door of time, simply returning from the sacred realm. In OoT the Master Sword serves as a key to the door of time, and to the sacred realm, but not simultaneously. The use of the door of time does not take you through the sacred realm, just between two points in time. In other words: the time travel in this case happened within the sacred realm - and did not use the door of time. I admit I have nothing to back this up, and I don't think we'll ever - take it as you will.

 

[jokekid]

link's time travelling in OOT was just sleeping a lot when going to the future, and rewinding when going to the past, but keeping his stuff with him

 

[Pseudocide]

Dont forget guys, its not a theory. it's stickied which makes it LAW!!!!! lol jk. but srsly, i love the way you explain the functioning of the door of time in comparison to the master sword.

 

[ganonlink1991]

what if Impa was just hiding the master sword in the present? she clearly has the magic powers to do all sorts of things such as make the pedestal of time invisible so as the master sword, and it has a logic, if Link had pulled the master sword it would not have existed as it was forged at that time so Impa had to make sure Link would forge the sword, as she already knew everything that was going to happen having she lived it all in her youth, that is also the reason that if you check the door behind her at the beginning of the game you see Zelda in her slumber

 

[Fullmetal]

I highly doubt that, seeing as how the Skyward Sword (which was the base for the Master Sword, might I remind you) was still hidden away in Skyloft. Besides, Impa was an old woman by that point who had lost most of her power. The main thing that I got confused about were the time-shift stones. The idea is that the stone will cover a certain area in a force field that transports anyone who steps in it back in time, but can return to the present whenever they prefer by stepping out of the force field. It would reanimate robots and monsters who happened to be within the bounds of the field. However, those who were inside it somehow knew that they were only alive because of the time-shift stone, the captain of the robot sailors even stating "the only reason I'm alive is because of the time-shift stone..." How do they know that they were previously dead? Also, if Link uses a time-shift stone/orb to complete an objective in the past, it clears that same obstacle in the future. Wouldn't this create a paradox, since a barrier you have cleared should already have been cleared in the past, never offering the challenge in the first place?

 

[Moonlight]

Can anyone explain to me what happened to Ghirahim? I am dying to know he just vanished but where did he go?! Will Ganon find him in the future where is that guy????

 

[LinkPTY]

Can anyone explain to me what happened to Ghirahim? I am dying to know he just vanished but where did he go?! Will Ganon find him in the future where is that guy????

He said he was a weapon so he probably died when Link defeated Demise in the past (if I remember correctly, Demise's sword/Ghirahim vanishes before Demise is sealed inside the Master Sword).

 

[SilentLink]

The main thing that I got confused about were the time-shift stones. The idea is that the stone will cover a certain area in a force field that transports anyone who steps in it back in time, but can return to the present whenever they prefer by stepping out of the force field. It would reanimate robots and monsters who happened to be within the bounds of the field. However, those who were inside it somehow knew that they were only alive because of the time-shift stone, the captain of the robot sailors even stating "the only reason I'm alive is because of the time-shift stone..." How do they know that they were previously dead? Also, if Link uses a time-shift stone/orb to complete an objective in the past, it clears that same obstacle in the future. Wouldn't this create a paradox, since a barrier you have cleared should already have been cleared in the past, never offering the challenge in the first place?

the time-shift stones are not offered as a time travel device. it is described to place the environment in a "past state". meaning that the environment within the stone's limits is returned to the way it was in the past. so, in effect, the stones analyze its surroundings, and determine how they existed in the past and simply return them to that way.

NOTE TO MODS: Double post resulted from thread merge. ~Locke

 

[SilentLink]

Two Split Timeline

The ending of skyward sword has brought to me a feeling that there is a possibility of a timeline split here as well as the conventional AT/CT.


I have read a few threads here that suggest there is not two splits. because of the nature of the time travel theories. but, if demise had been destroyed in the past and the past actions operate on the same timeline as the present, the imprisoned would not have existed, the threat of Demise would not have been an issue, and Link, Zelda, Fi, and Impa wouldn't need to go through any of that, and life would have gone on without hesitation. But, since the past in this game is Links Present (and anyone who travels through the door), nothing can undo what link has experienced in HIS past. therefore anything he does in the past will not change the present. But, if you use the "time is a river" theory. going back and forth will not change anything. unless of course when going back up the river you dig on the rivers edge to create a fork. Which is what could be argued to have happened when Demise was freed and destroyed in the Past.

Before going any further lets look at the conventional time line theory which is roughly known and accepted with a few variations
---------/WW-PH-ST
SS--OoT with the others somewhere in there
--------\MM-TP-AlttP-Loz-Aol

But with all of the holes and the other games in there that are argued over and over, how can we assume where those games fit? or if they have anything to do with the other games in general. We have to look at all these games and see who is in them. Now, obviously OoT is the origin story for Ganon. so the games in the timeline with Ganon fall after OoT. or do they.


If we assume there is a split in the time line from SS (for the sake of this idea), we need to look at the two endings. Present Ending, Demise had been sealed away by the Goddess and Link used to Triforce to eradicate him from existence, making the world safe from evil. The Past Ending, where Demise had been freed and essentially destroyed by Link and his remaining essence trapped in the Master sword to fade away, But Demise had placed a curse on Link and Zelda to ensure his essense would live on.

Now, here is the main thing to worry about. the curse. if we are going with this split idea, how does this curse work and what does it mean for the stories that come later? obviously Ganondorf/Ganon is the reincarnation of Demise's evil spirit/the curse. But, if we assume there is a split then which Timeline does the curse apply to? would it be the Past where the Demise that placed the curse exists? or the Present where the Link and Zelda that the curse was placed on exist? My guess would be that the curse followed Link to the present since the curse was placed on him, and all of those involved in SS story exists in that universe. However, it would also exist in the past timeline since that is where the curse originated, and assuming that there is two existences at this point, its not too farfetched that there would be two curses essentially. But, with this being true, where do the following games lie in these two timelines. Now this is where massive speculation must come into play unfortunately since the SS split is simply an idea and not confirmed or denied by nintendo or the developers. so let me explain my speculation into the events following the end of SS for both Time lines and where the games may fall.

The Present. Zelda and Link stay below on the surface following their adventure to essentially create the kingdom of Hyrule

The Past. With Demise being destroyed, The Cloud Barrier Dissipates and those who were sent to the sky return to the surface and rebuild their lost Kingdom. Zelda and Link are born on the surface.


with these speculations its safe to say that the present timeline is where OoT can Be Placed. which then places the conventional timeline above being filled in after.

But what about the rest of the games? and this is where it gets dodgy. so Ill give you what my Timeline would Be If the Split on SS is confirmed.

---/ TMC---FS---FSA
SS ---/WW-PH-ST
---\OoT
--------\MM--TP----AlltP-(*OoX)-LA-Loz-AoL

But, you will argue something to the effect, "you said that any game that has Ganon has to come after OoT since thats the origin story". However, thats not necessarily the case. If the Curse exists in both realities. Then Ganondorf will exist in both realities since he is essentially the embodiment of Demise's spirit or whatever. Is it impossible that Ganon could come about in both realities?. In the FS/FSA series Ganon is said to have been a man from the desert, but, the backstory of his corruption is different from the events that happen in OoT. which is why it would make sense for that timeline of TMC-FS-FSA to exist on a separate timeline IF a split exists in SS.

IF the Split is to exist in SS, I feel that this timeline would make the most sense. However, The split is not a reality, or a farce. Simply an Idea. I am not presenting this as a Solid Timeline Theory, simply an Idea to be considered, and possibility.


Feel free to comment and argue for, or against this.


*Im not sure where the OoX games fall as I never really played through them, nor did research into their in-game stories and backstories.
There for I have placed them here since I have seen this placement most among timelines.

 

[TwilightKing]

Yea, I can agree with this in all. Except the fact that you placed MM on the adult timeline. Can you please explain.