A Link to the Past Sequence Breaking, Difficulty, and the Meta-game

[Scotts897]

I have been playing "A Link to the Past" a lot recently and I have searched for topics about what I am interested in and didn't see much about the topic.

In any case, I watched somebody on youtube do a speed run on the game and it was there that I learned that I could sequence break! After two play thrus of the game, I thought that the Blue Mail came way too late into the game along with the 4th bottle and the tempered sword. So, after seeing that one could do the Thieves' Town dungeon early, it changed the whole game for me.

While browsing these forums, I have noticed that many people think that "A Link to the Past" is hard. After using this website to learn how to easily get through the original Zelda game on the NES, it was clear that the original design philosophy of Zelda is that Link's power comes from exploring and clearing dungeons. Not to mention the non-linear design format. Link carries an arsenal of tools to clear dungeons and with the knowledge of how to use them properly, a dungeon is easy. I beat the original LoZ using this site's guide in one sitting and found myself amazed that I just facerolled the entire game simply because I was armed with the strategies. I started the second quest but I got bored and didn't finish but it was designed to be hard for even the smartest players due to having to explore the graveyard area early to get a heart and not being able to get the sword upgrades, hearts, and the bow early. When I was young, I didn't know how to find all the rupee and heart locations early on and didn't get the blue ring until much later so the game was that much harder! Until recently, I always thought that Zelda had too many puzzles and not enough focus on improving your character. But you do "level up" thru beating dungeons bosses by getting a heart. Exploring the world gets you more hearts. Socializing about Miyamoto's great game with friends may reveal more secrets you didn't know about. So what it comes down to is strategy, exploration, and proper planning when dealing with a Zelda game.

In any case, I discovered that "A Link to the Past" takes this concept much deeper. It has a lot of items and many of them I used to consider mostly worthless. But I have played thru the game several times now from start to end this month. The first part of the game in the light world is fairly easy. The 3 dungeons with the pendants didn't have any serious puzzles but rather acted as training exercises. You can find 11 pieces of heart during this phase of the game (you'll get the 12th one on the pyramid of power) and if you put any effort into exploring, you will find the flippers and the ice rod. More careful observation reveals that you can upgrade the boomerang and the shield immediately after you get the flippers. But one doesn't know that immediately so a new player won't get the mid level shield until finding it in a shop later on in the Dark World. So the game is designed to be hard for new people and gets easier the more one learns about the "garden" Miyamoto wanted us to explore!

In the Dark World, the difficulty shoots up in both the puzzles and the enemies. After the first dungeon where you get the hammer, your map will then show where all the dungeons are and will number them 2-7. But, you don't have to do them in that order! In fact, it's not even ideal to do them in that order! I want to talk about this concept here because I think it's great!

At first glace, it appears that you need the hook-shot to reach the graveyard, skull woods, and the village of outcasts in the Dark World. But there is one spot in the game that is kinda hidden that changes that. If in the Light World, you exit the Lost Woods to the south in the right spot, you can use the hammer to unlock a passage to the Dark World. From there, you can go straight to Thieves' Town and beat what is probably the easiest dungeon in the Dark World. One trick I used to beat blind the thief is activating the Cane of Byrna after I kill the first head and then I can proceed to faceroll him down while ignoring all the stuff flying around.

With the Titan's Mitt, I can then get the Tempered Sword, the 4th Bottle, and can pretty much get nearly all the pieces of heart in the game as this point. This of course makes the next dungeons even easier! Also, not everyone knows the strategies of using magic powder to turn the Anti-Fairies and the starry thing that turns you into a bunny into a fairies. Doing this easily keeps you healed up! Then there is the strategy of freezing enemies and using the hammer to refill your magic meter up! Many people that complain about the difficulty probably aren't doing these things.

I am trying to figure out the best optimization at this point. I think doing the Swamp Palace next is the best way to go. You can get the Blue Mail without the fire rod and the Hook-Shot but it is much easier with the Hook-Shot. The Swamp Palace is not really that hard so I think doing it third is the best option. Then, with Bombos, you can get into the Ice Palace and can get far enough in to get the Blue Mail. Then, I am still working on my strategy here but I usually come back later with the Fire Rod and the Cane of Somaria even though I could beat it without it.

Then, Misery Mire is next. The Cane of Somaria has a lot of uses and it's a shame you get it so late. Misery Mire isn't too hard if you know where to go. And the boss, I just like to use the cape and walk to the side of the boss as close as I can and chop away! Once again, seemingly useless items like the Cape and the Cane of Byrna actually have situations that can make a difficult fight much easier! Then it's off to Skull Woods! With knowledge on where to go and wise use of magic management, this place is cake! The Blue Mail and the Tempered Sword already makes the Gibdos that much easier to deal with! I always keep potions on me because I will otherwise get maxed at 999 rupees and if late in the game I will have too much money to burn so all my potions will be blue potions. So magic should not be an issue on the fight with Mothula.

Then the Ice Palace. We already got the master key so this place will be easy. The Cane of Somaria opens a shortcut. And against the boss, the use of Bombos to break the ice is much more mana efficient. Be sure to get the upgrades to the Sword and the Bow in the Pyramid of Power after 6 dungeons. Then, to do Turtle Rock, you have to have both the Cane of Somaria and the Fire Rod to even attempt this place. Once again, with proper preparation and knowledge of where to go, this place is easy as well! At this point, you are armed to the teeth! You should have 18 hearts and will have 20 by the end of this dungeon!

And then, on the way to Ganon's Tower, you will meet Lynel's but you have your mirror shield to protect you from their projectiles. Ganon's Tower basically serves as a test to see if you have learned enough to win this game! The Red Mail seems to serve mostly as a tool to make the Ganon fight easier.

I like this game because of it's non-linearity format that is especially true at the Dark World phase of the game! I plan to make a youtube LP series on this game and I already made my first video, but I want to be much closer to perfection in terms of optimization before I go much further. This is my channel if anyone is interested http://www.youtube.com/user/Scott89878?feature=mhum#p/a . I have previously done LPs of Super Metroid and Secret of Mana, which are both games inspired by the Zelda Series. Those are both games where I have done similar things to optimize game play for quicker runs and fast enjoyment of content. I am annoyed that I barely got any of views on my Secret of Mana LP but I think a popular game like Zelda will bring in more people.

In any case, I want to know if others have come up with optimal tricks to get thru this game. I want to know how others do sequence breaking. Or, just any general thoughts on the design philosophy of this game. I don't like 3d Zelda games that much because they are too puzzle focused, too linear, and not enough focus on general game play. I see this game and Link's Awakening as the golden games of the series.

 

[navi_the_fairy]

I just started playing ALttP a couple days ago and I just got to the boss in the Dark Palace. Thank you for posting this because now I have a better strategy for completing the game!

 

[White_link]

Now I want this game even more

 

[Scotts897]

Well, a few days later and no discussion outside a few compliments. Let's perhaps try to discuss it in a different way then. I saw a speed runner do the game on youtube and he did the Dark World dungeons in the order of 1, 4, 2, 6, 3, 5, 7 and I guess he had some kind of record for the game. In any case, Zelda is built a bit more around surviving than speed. Super Metroid's meta game was speed runs and using efficient paths. This was enhanced by learn how to wall jump and getting some beams early while having to play with less energy tanks and missiles because on a 100% run, it was most efficient to get them near the end of the game, thus making a speed run a hard mode version of the game. LTP is about survivability. Hence the focus on game's played. While I don't usually die, save and quit counts against you, so most of the time I get 6-8 games played per file.

So, the strategy to Zelda is to know how to get upgrades earlier so you have more tools when you do the dungeons. After you get the Hammer you can get most of the hearts in the game, the Cane of Byrna, the Magic Cape, the Flute and after the Titan's Mitt you can get some more hearts plus the Tempered Sword and another Bottle. So my strategy is to do 1, 4, 2, part of 5, 6, 3, finish 5, 7. The only thing I don't like is how sloppy not doing 5 in one run is. But on a normal run, you spend like 70-80% of the game in a green tunic and the last two come waaaaaay too late! So I like to get the Blue Mail as soon as it is available. I'm trying to find the optimal solution to this dilemma. I've considered the possibility of getting the Mirror Shield early but there isn't much point to that. You literally need all the treasures (minus the Blue Mail) from the previous dungeons to even get thru Turtle Rock and before Turtle Rock there are no projectiles that require the use of the Mirror Shield.

Does anybody have thoughts on sequence breaking and the general concept of doing things out of order to make the game easier and quicker? I truly enjoy games of this fashion because I can play them over and over and look to find ways to improve my formula each time. I want feedback on sequence breaking and/or just the general concept of this idea.

 

[Rytex]

When I played the game on the Game Boy Advance, I fell in love with it, but I did the dungeons in order. I died over 500 times in dungeon 1 alone. Anyway, now that I speed run the game, I always do this sequence break. The difficulty goes from 5-Stars to about 3.5-Stars. Especially if you collected heart pieces in the overworld also. When I think of games with a great concept and even the programmers imploring the gamer to SB, I think of Super Metroid and ALttP. And I found those games to be the most addicting games on the SNES. Even more so than FFIII/VI (which is my favorite FF game ever)

 

[Scotts897]

I used to think very highly of the SNES RPGs like FFVI, Chrono Trigger, and Secret of Mana. But Nintendo seemed to have had a much higher attention to detail when making their games. A Link to the Past and Super Metroid are the best games in my opinion. Non-linear exploration with hidden power ups are the most fun. While Super Mario World and Yoshi's Island were good platformers, they are too linear (but as it often goes, platformers are usually more popular with the masses). I can get 100% in Super Metroid in under an hour and 40 minutes with just wall jumping a few key areas and optimized pathing (which oddly enough results in me exploring about 97% of the map). And Zelda, I am still exploring but I think I have my formula close to what I want it to be. So I recorded two more episodes on my youtube channel last night (neither have been edited or uploaded yet) and I died in the Eastern Palace due to missing too many times trying to use magic powder on the Anti-Fairies in the room where you find the master key. I was livid when that happened. I had a fairy in a bottle so I came back to life but it'll probably ruin games played at the end. In any case, I'll argue in my video the importance of preparing for such random misfortune. Super Metroid and A Link to the Past can be played to 100% in one sitting if you are good and in the process you consumes loads of content and have opportunities to attempt to improve on future runs.

 

[Scotts897]

I just played thru the game again and did some experimenting. I have solved my Ice Palace dilemma. First I do the Dark Palace and then the Thieve's Town Dungeon. Then I do the Swamp Palace to get the Hookshot. Those green duck things (Pengators) die to the Hookshot in one hit and it's much easier to complete this dungeon with the Hookshot. You also have to have Bombos. Now, the shortcut the Cane of Somaria gives isn't that big if you don't make any errors in your pathing when getting the keys and it beats leaving after getting the Blue Mail and coming back later. Of course, one could just do Misery Mire before this dungeon, but the armor upgrade serves you better if you get it earlier. And Bombos breaks off the ice barrier on the boss in one casting, so no need for a Fire Rod here.

And I discovered those cactus looking mobs in Turtle Rock (Geldarm) die in one hit to the Fire Rod, so I have a new strategy there. Seems the best order now (in terms of a mix survivability and speed) is 1, 4, 2, 5, 6, 3, 7. I've decided 6 before 3 because there is one area in Skull Woods where having the Cane of Somaria saves time (otherwise you have to pull a statue while Wall Masters try to catch you) while I have identified no reason to need the Fire Rod in Misery Mire.

Eventually when I find a level of perfection I am satisfied with, I'll finish my youtube series this game and show off everything I talked about.

 

[Hero_in_Green]

I don't mean to be harsh, but I think the early Zelda games should be played without guides as they were intended to be. This hikes up the difficulty and makes it more of a challenge so when you finally beat it you feel a sense of accomplishment and can truly relate to the struggles of the character. This is just my opinion...I found A Link to the Past one of the hardest Zelda games (next to the original LoZ) because the dungeons and enemies, but I still love to try and beat it without dying through careful preparation as its more fun for me...Using guides to make the game seem "easy" for you kills all the fun because games that are too easy just dont provide as much fun as if they were hard. But everyone has their own way to play Zelda so I have no right to judge, just putting my own opinion out there

 

[Scotts897]

I did play these games without guides back in the day. But today, the challenge is to get better at the game. To do it without dying or to do it quickly. Figuring out the best order to do things and what path to take. And that is what my thread is about. The only areas that gave me trouble in a Link to the Past was trying to figure out where the second floor of the Desert Palace was and how to get up on spectacle rock. Everything else wasn't too hard. Back then my strategy to was to carry a lot of fairies. NPCs told me how to find everything important. None of the later puzzles fooled me for long.

The game is hard because it wants to reward ingenuity. Who knew that doing the dungeons out of order was more optimal? And proper usage of items on enemies made life easier. If you are smart enough to get the Blue Mail early, you deserve the survivability you have earned. If you are smart enough to use magic powder on all the anti-fairies, then you should always be close to full health. If you have fairies or potions on you, then you should never die or run out of mana. If you use the ice rod and hammer the frozen creature to get magic jars, you deserve having more magic to spend on items like the rods, the canes, and the medallions. If you know to use the right items on the right enemies, you should be able to faceroll them. And I am still learning what works on what. Essentially, this game is hard because you have to use the power of exploration and experimentation to master!

 

[NoSugarTonight]

For the zelda Games I have played I never used a guide(MM, WW, OoT, TP, LA) and I had a great time experiencing all the aspects of the game. But that was when I had all the time in the world. Now I am almost always busy and I have decided to play all the zelda games I haven't played before Skyward Sword comes out. Which is mostly all the 2-d ones. I only use the guide for the overworld and the secrets it contains, so I save time instead of just meandering about(which I do understand is the concept of the game, But I don't have much time to play them like that) I never use the guide for the dungeons or puzzles, because those are my favorite parts and are the most rewarding I believe. I always loved zelda because it heightened my attention to detail and puzzle solving skills. I only play video games that somehow increasing or stimulate important skills, but entertain me while doing so. So I only use the guide to find power ups and secret places ONLY in the overworld/underworld. Though I did very much enjoy exploring the realms of the 3d games, But i guess that because I could almost truly believe in that world. Exploring in LoZ or Alttp just didn't cut it for me.

 

[Michael1985]

In the Dark World, I like to go get the items and the heart pieces before clearing the dungeons. SO I go 1,2,4,3,5,6,7 with the items, and then play the dungeons in order.

 

[Valoo]

I think very highly of this game. My very first Zelda was Wind Waker and i kind of worked backwords from there. ALttP was my first "original" Zelda game and i dont exactly think that difficult is exactly the right word to use. It is hard, without a doubt but that is simply because that in new, more modern Zelda's there is alot of in game "hand holding" you dont need to figure alot of things out for yourself and ALttP is something totally differant. For example, there was nothing pointing to the Zora flippers that you needed to complete the game, you simply needed to explore the world fully to find them... It is my favorite game out of them all even though i started playing in the "hand holding" era of video gameing.

What are your thoughts on my post here, for i know opinions will vary.

P.S. Sorry about all of the spelling mistakes

 

[Scotts897]

I agree about the hand holding thing. Nintendo doesn't quite make their games the way they used to. I'm inclined to say their older games were more hardcore? And I loved that! I've found in most Zelda games, I enjoy the overworld exploring the most. Even in my LP of this game, the videos with the most views are the ones where you grab a bunch of overworld items. I'd say this game had the best dungeons by far. As for the getting the items in all the dungeons and then completing them later: that is a valid way to play, but some bosses with the right strategy are just way too easy to justify doing that (seriously, you can just activate the cane of burma of the magic cape and kill certain bosses without taking a single hit). I haven't played this game in a long time, I might have to do it again sometime soon!

 

[MW7]

Does anybody have thoughts on sequence breaking and the general concept of doing things out of order to make the game easier and quicker? I truly enjoy games of this fashion because I can play them over and over and look to find ways to improve my formula each time. I want feedback on sequence breaking and/or just the general concept of this idea.

I think you should give Ocarina of Time a try. It's fairly complex to figure out the best way through the game without glitches (or with glitches it's even crazier). It's not quite as free as ALTTP, but you can save some significant time by doing things in different orders. For instance the guy who set the world record went Fire, Forest, Water, child Spirit, Shadow, adult Spirit. There are tons of little tricks as well, and understanding the whole game is nearly as complex as ALTTP.

Also you might want to experiment with minimalist runs because it forces you to think about how to do things a different way in some cases. For instance in Ocarina of Time skipping the fire arrows and lens of truth are possible, but figuring out how to do so is complex and challenging.

 

[Scotts897]

I think you should give Ocarina of Time a try. It's fairly complex to figure out the best way through the game without glitches (or with glitches it's even crazier). It's not quite as free as ALTTP, but you can save some significant time by doing things in different orders. For instance the guy who set the world record went Fire, Forest, Water, child Spirit, Shadow, adult Spirit. There are tons of little tricks as well, and understanding the whole game is nearly as complex as ALTTP.

Also you might want to experiment with minimalist runs because it forces you to think about how to do things a different way in some cases. For instance in Ocarina of Time skipping the fire arrows and lens of truth are possible, but figuring out how to do so is complex and challenging.

I played and won Ocarina of Time when it was new. It was a good game but my N64 doesn't work anymore so I can't play it anymore. I personally think people really really over rate Ocarina of Time. I do like the concept of minimalist runs but that concept works well with Super Metroid where skipping some upgrades until later on when you have more power ups has allowed me to do a 100% run in about 90 minutes without exploiting ridicules glitches by using an extremely optimized route. I have a youtube series showcasing it. http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLB0669C6B0CE8CFD8 But with Zelda, it seems the game isn't about speed, it's about survival. The game has a counter on the load screen showing how many tries it took to win, while Super Metroid has a timer. I haven't seen anything mind blowing about a minimalist run either. But I think it's awesome that A Link to the Past and Super Metroid were designed with these kind of things in mind.