Secrets in Zelda -- Shouldn't They Be More "Secretive"?

[Ventus]

Throughout the realm of Zelda, we've had many kinds of secrets. Easter eggs, hidden rooms, treasure chests, et cetera times three. But at the same time, those "secrets" grew increasingly less secretive as the Zelda installments started to pile up. We even got the Dowsing feature in Skyward Sword to help us out. So instead of this being "I wonder what's behind this rock", the situation for most Zelda games has become "let me move this rock out of the way so I can get this item". I personally don't think that's what a secret is, and just so I can double check, I'll list some defintions of the word:

-done, made, or conducted without the knowledge of others: secret negotiations.

-kept from the knowledge of any but the initiated or privileged: a secret password.

-secluded, sheltered, or withdrawn: a secret hiding place.
(http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/secret)

All of those definitions fall in line with what I consider a secret: something you don't know about. However, every Zelda game even the original LoZ makes some, most or even all of these 'secrets' terribly known, abhorrently noticeable. If we know about it, it isn't a secret. It's merely an object temporarily out of reach; a goal we're striving towards. Anytime we get a cutscene within a game that points at a treasure chest, or a bombable wall is visibly cracked, there is no secret about that location. Perhaps about what lies behind it, but not the location itself.

So I've been thinking: shouldn't the secrets in Zelda be more secretive? What do you think on the matter?

 

[Azure Sage]

I think they were fine the way they were in SS. It would be unfair if they were hidden too secretly, without any decent hints. If there were a suspicious mark on a wall, that would be good enough. But for them to be hidden away with no discernable clue around them, I think it would be too unfair. You'd practically need a strategy guide to find them, and no game should ever have you need to use a strategy guide just to figure out where something is.

All in all, I think secrets are fine the way they are now. It's not exactly as you described, after all:

"let me move this rock out of the way so I can get this item"

That's not exactly how it was. It was more like: "Is something over here? Ooooh, there is! I was right! Let's go get it!" I think that's perfectly fine, and I rather enjoy that experience.

 

[JuicieJ]

There should always be some indication as to where a secret is (unless it's an easter egg). There shouldn't be signs saying "HERE IT IS", but there shouldn't be a lack of visual cues, either. That's what makes the original Zelda's secrets suck. It's complete guesswork. A Link to the Past fixed that problem, and most games later on have done a good job about it, as well. The only game I can think of that had the majority of its secrets practically shoved in our faces was Twilight Princess.

So, in short, no. Secrets shouldn't be so well-hidden that the only way they can be found is through luck.

 

[DarkestLink]

I think SS was not secretive enough. LoZ was way too secretive. OoT was a little too secretive. If you didn't have a rumble pack, you were screwed. Wind Waker was a combination of "Just Right" and "Not enough". TP was pretty good except for some of the holes. I resorted to crossing every inch of every land to find some of them. Ridiculous.

 

[EternalNocturne]

I have to admit that I thought Skyward Sword was way too easy to complete 100%. Most of the "secrets" came in the form of the Goddes Cubes, which you could find through dowsing, which led to the Goddess Chests in the sky -- which were marked for you on the map. As far as the traditional Zelda secrets go, Skyward Sword lacked terribly in that department. The cracks in the wall on Eldin Volcano were the only thing reminiscent of the secrets in past games... There weren't even any hidden grottos or anything, besides from those mazes you had to crawl through with the Mogma Mitts.

I feel as though recent Zeldas have helped the player too much and has stripped the series of that feeling of exploration and accomplishment I found in previous installments. Along with the not-so-secret secrets, the linearity in games like SS and TP is heartbreaking. So while I don't think Nintendo should make it so that the secrets are so well-hidden that we'd only stumble upon them by luck, they should remove things like dowsing so that we could actually go explore and run into them rather than hunt for something that we know is there.

 

[Ventus]

I feel as though recent Zeldas have helped the player too much and has stripped the series of that feeling of exploration and accomplishment I found in previous installments. Along with the not-so-secret secrets, the linearity in games like SS and TP is heartbreaking. So while I don't think Nintendo should make it so that the secrets are so well-hidden that we'd only stumble upon them by luck, they should remove things like dowsing so that we could actually go explore and run into them rather than hunt for something that we know is there.

Dowsing is almost 100% optional bar a few forced moments. I don't think dowsing affects secrets; it's moreso the outright SHOWING us the general location of whatever secret we know, and just barring us from actually reaching it. At least, that's my take on it.

 

[JuicieJ]

I have to admit that I thought Skyward Sword was way too easy to complete 100%. Most of the "secrets" came in the form of the Goddes Cubes, which you could find through dowsing, which led to the Goddess Chests in the sky -- which were marked for you on the map. As far as the traditional Zelda secrets go, Skyward Sword lacked terribly in that department. The cracks in the wall on Eldin Volcano were the only thing reminiscent of the secrets in past games... There weren't even any hidden grottos or anything, besides from those mazes you had to crawl through with the Mogma Mitts.

The Goddess Cubes could be dowsed for, but that's an optional feature. You can't use that to say they were too easy to find. If you chose to dowse for them and thought it was too easy as a result, that's your fault. Beyond that, though, they were actually pretty challenging to reach a lot of the time. It was a lot like A Link to the Past where items were in plain sight but had a specific path to follow to get to.

 

[Spirit]

i do feel clever when i think ive found something i shouldnt but that usually happened in the 2D games rather than the 3d games and i think only TP has given me a sense of 'well done, you found it and i didn't tell you'. I'd like things to be more secretive in Zelda, SS is the only game ive done on the first play through that was pretty close to 100% by the end of the game and it only took 20hours and didnt feel like i was going out of my way to find anyhting secretive...

In line with the more secretive thing, i'd like companions to be removed so that the exploration feels more as if it came from you and finding something makes the found object 'yours' rather than something link found with the help from whoever is around him. So yeah, give us more secrets with less obvious nudges to go over there and do that to get the thing that does stuff.

 

[Castle]

This is what irritates me about modern video games. They've been dumbed down, lobotomized, neutered because publishers are scared to death that if players are forced to think for more than two seconds they'll turn off the game in droves. Unfortunately, this issue hasn't been lost on the Zelda series.

Granted, the converse goes too far. The first Legend of Zelda game gave players zero indication where secrets were hidden. Players had to bomb every wall, torch every bush and ram every boulder until something happened. Other games had completely nonsensical solutions to problems, such as Castlevania Simon's Quest where players had to know to have a certain item, stand in a certain spot, input a certain sequence into the controller in an area that gave no indication that this is where all this was supposed to take place. You just sorta had to know.

But all the rampant hand holding in video games these days is just as disgusting. The thrill one gets when discovering a "secret" just isn't there when the game has dragged you straight to it.

 

[Ventus]

Granted, the converse goes too far. The first Legend of Zelda game gave players zero indication where secrets were hidden. Players had to bomb every wall, torch every bush and ram every boulder until something happened.

There's a great reason for the converse. It's a secret to everybody.

I do agree though, perhaps the level that LoZ took to secrets was too much. However, I'm disgusted with the handholding and the lack of required brain power in modern Zelda -- everything you are looking for is shown to you, and it's just up to you to jump through hoops to reach your target. The thing is, we shouldn't HAVE a target -- we should just be exploring and stumble upon something. That's what a secret is. A secret isn't something in plain sight.

 

[JuicieJ]

I do agree though, perhaps the level that LoZ took to secrets was too much. However, I'm disgusted with the handholding and the lack of required brain power in modern Zelda -- everything you are looking for is shown to you, and it's just up to you to jump through hoops to reach your target. The thing is, we shouldn't HAVE a target -- we should just be exploring and stumble upon something. That's what a secret is. A secret isn't something in plain sight.

Then why do you like the secrets in A Link to the Past and The Minish Cap? They did exactly the same things.

 

[DarkestLink]

My favorite kinds of secrets are the one where you are given no clues...but you just know they are there somewhere...because you know the developers weren't just gonna put something there for no reason.

 

[OcarinistOfTime]

I think we need like three tiers of secrets in Zelda games. A lower level where if you don't find at least half of these by completing the game you need a walkthrough. A mid level that you might find 2-3 your first playthrough but you really had to figure something out to do it and upper level on par with the original where you got lucky or you had to connect seemingly passive statements of NPCs to find them. I think finding all the secrets should feel like a seperate game in their whole right.

 

[Byrne12197]

they should be a bit hidden but not too hidden to the point that you cant find them

 

[The Wanderer]

Anytime we get a cutscene within a game that points at a treasure chest, or a bombable wall is visibly cracked, there is no secret about that location. Perhaps about what lies behind it, but not the location itself.

Yeah, I couldn't help but notice that a lot in recent Zelda games. I am getting a little tired of the hand-holding when it comes to cutscenes. For one, it feels like reaching the top of a mountain and having someone forcefully move your head by grabbing your jaw and making you look at the scenery. If I appreciate the scenery at all, I'll stop and look at it myself. You don't need to make me do it. In many games, I will pause for a moment and take in a breathtaking view before moving on; I did that quite a bit in Skyward Sword, actually. On the other hand, players who just don't care about the scenery and want to move on will be even more annoyed by being made to stop and watch a cutscene about the latest area or latest room. It's unnecessary and rather counterproductive either way.

Secondly, a lot of puzzle solutions have felt forced by showing us exactly where to go and kind of what to expect. Skyward Sword was particularly egregious in this with both numerous cutscenes and Fi constantly pointing out the obvious to you, essentially destroying any sense of triumph in solving a lot of puzzles yourself. I wouldn't mind a cutscene or two to introduce us to a new concept, but then it should be up to the player to figure out what to do with that concept. When we obtained bombs three dungeons ago and the game is still showing us exactly where cracked walls are, the hand-holding is getting out of, well...hand. I'm not pointing the blame at any one game with that analogy, but I think it basically fits much of the recent series.

As for the hand-holding with secrets, I guess it depends on what kind of secrets we're talking about. As mentioned several times in this thread, the first Zelda game was excessive in its use of completely random secrets, which makes exploration (the heart of Zelda) a bit cumbersome. When it comes to things like Easter eggs, I think they really should be very random. Someone will discover it and announce its presence to the world eventually. Easter eggs are more meaningful that way. But in terms of things like new sidequests or general game content, there should be at least some hint to point us in the right direction, or we can go the whole game without learning about something fun and important.