Optional Dungeons?

[Jlemon21]

Sorry if their's been a thread like this before, I did a search and nothing came up. Mods, if this thread is in the wrong place, please move it, thanks! So... optional dungeons, I've always wanted these to show up in a Zelda game. The idea of more exploration outside of collectibles after the final boss sounded great to me. So I have a couple questions here:

1. If their were optional dungeons in a Zelda game, how would you gain access to it?

2. Would it have it's own boss and item?

3. Would it have any effect on the story?

4. What about the difficulty?

These are my answers:

1. I would love it if these dungeons were pure discovery. For instance, you're walking around, exploring the vast overworld, when you happen to find a secret area you didn't see before. After a short time of puzzle-solving (or enemy-killing), you are allowed entrance into another vast labyrinth or a dungeon where treasure and adventure await you! Or it could be a mini-story/side quest, such as retrieving a child/object from the hands of a vile beast deep inside it's liar.

2. It wouldn't really be a dungeon without a boss, would it? The item on the other hand... I would like it if their was an item to assist you on your trek, but it's not required in my opinion.

3. I don't think it should effect the game's story much unless you found the dungeon through a side quest.

4. It would definitely have to be a much harder than the story line dungeons, to give a bit of a challenge.

So what are your answers to these questions?

 

[AaronX]

I think it'd be really awesome if there were several optional dungeons and several different endings to Skyward Sword. That'd be awesome. And when going through the game, there could be some optional dungeons that may actually make for a worse ending. And some could have items that are very risky and subtract HP for extra damage or something. Maybe there could be some dungeons that the boss of the dungeon might be a little baby monster that would come back to haunt you once it grew up if you didn't beat it fast enough or something.

I just assumed you were talking about SS. Sorry. xP

 

[Michael Heide]

Link's Awakening DX had an optional Dungeon. You needed to read a certain book in the library, and then move gravestones at the graveyard in a particular order. In the dungeon were color-based puzzles (the rest of the game was compatible with the original gray-and-green GameBoy), tons of rupees and the red and blue suits (you could only pick one. To change your suit, you had to go back there).

And I love the concept. Speedrunners can skip it if they want, but explorers get rewarded. Best of both worlds.

 

[Hylian Knight]

OoT and TP had optional dungeons:In OoT it was the Gerudo Training Grounds were you got the Ice Arrows it has its uses.( I think the Ice Arrows were out their for an element of fun.) TP: Had the Cave Ordeals where every 10 floors you got Fairies in one of the Springs. (10):Ordon 20: Faron 30:Eldin 40:Lanayru 50: Not Sure never completed it always died.

 

[Ocarina Of Time]

I would love the idea of and extra dungeon. But I would only try it if 1 I had nothing else to do or 2 an rewarding item and heart container. The boss would have to be extremely hard because most zelda bosses aren't a challenge.

 

[Majora's Cat]

There have been many "optional dungeons" in the Zelda series' past. Take the Cave of Ordeals for instance - though it wasn't like a regular dungeon, it was still quite challenging and I still loved the idea of battling through hordes of powerful enemies. It certainly improved on Wind Waker's Savage Labyrinth with tougher enemies and a larger variety of such enemies.

Another example of this is in Ocarina of Time. The Gerudo Training Grounds were sort of an extra dungeon that you could complete - it was more of a dungeon than the Savage Labyrinth and Cave of Ordeals were, though. A mini-dungeon of sorts, really. Collecting keys, fighting enemies, etc. While it may not have been as exhilarating or difficult as WW and TP's optional dungeons, it incorporated puzzles and elements from regular dungeons that made the Gerudo Training Grounds one-of-a-kind.

Other optional dungeons come from ALttP, Wind Waker (lots of secret caves there ) and even Majora's Mask. MM included Skulltula Houses which were a bit reminiscent of a mini-dungeon. There were no big puzzles involved, but searching for the little Golden Skulltulas proved to be enough of a challenge. Even Beneath the Well in Ikana Valley was a mini-dungeon of sorts. While it was still required to complete the game, extra goodies still resided in rooms that didn't need to be explored to progress through the game.

Some more complex hidden locations throughout Zelda games could be considered optional dungeons... but of course, none of them could ever compare to full-fledged dungeons. Personally, I think it would be great to see complete dungeons that are not required to beat the game. The reward would have to be quite hefty if you're willing to go through the trouble of completing these optional dungeons - perhaps an item or a full heart container would be sufficient?

Now to answer your questions:

1. I wouldn't make gaining access to the dungeon a difficult feat. It has to be rather obvious - maybe a small cave in the distance that you can't gain access to until later in the game. Maybe a puzzle or two involving the environment around you could lead to the entrance. I wouldn't make such a fuss out of it. Staying true to previous Zelda games, the entrance to this optional dungeon should be obtained by solving one easy puzzle, but should require a certain item attained later in the game.

2. I don't think it should have its own boss - bosses are only for real dungeons. I think a few mini-bosses should be added here and there, but a real boss isn't needed. As for items, sure, but the item that is rewarded to you shouldn't be of that much importance in the game. Most likely an item obtained in an optional dungeon should only be necessary for sidequests.

3. That's the thing about sidequests and secret caves in Zelda games - they shouldn't have an effect on the story. If they did, then they wouldn't be so secret, huh? Zelda games have never had sidequests really affect the game itself (except for Majora's Mask ) so I feel that future Zelda games shouldn't take optional dungeons seriously. These dungeons are optional, and that being said, should not have an affect on the story, gameplay or direction of the Zelda game.

4. Difficulty? For sure, it shouldn't be as difficult as a real dungeon. That is a "no-no". Optional dungeons and sidequests in general should never be as tough as real dungeons. That's sort of a rule in gaming - if extra dungeons were to be more difficult, then what's the point of the real dungeons? Why not just make the optional dungeon a necessary part of the game if it's going to be more difficult?

I hope that I can see what other people think because this is a good thread.

 

[bbevington90]

1. I'd like it to be a dungeon that you could see throughout the entire game, but aren't allowed to gain entrance to it until you defeat the final boss of the game.
2. No, but it's because I really would like it to be a puzzle-less dungeon, a dungeon in which it is all fight, like the one in Twilight Princess. Those are always fun and challenging.
3. I wouldn't want it to have any effect on the overall story, but I wouldn't mind it having a part in the game. If it could do something like help un-freeze Zora's Domain or something to that nature, that would be great.
4. The optional dungeon needs to be really difficult, otherwise... what's the point? I want to need to bring a full slate of potions for getting health and magic back, and need to use every item I have to kill all the enemies.

 

[Shnappy]

1. If their were optional dungeons in a Zelda game, how would you gain access to it?

As far as optional dungeons go, they have to be quite hidden. If you're going to go out of your way to do an optional dungeon, it should be very rewarding, and that reward must be deserved. Good games aren't known to hand you out a great prize for something that took no effort to find. I guess it would be possible for them to be more out in the open, but the reward for completing said dungeon should be drastically less than that of an optional dungeon that is more hidden.

2. Would it have it's own boss and item?

A boss and item seem to be the structure of every dungeon in a Zelda game. In a standard required dungeon, you must get an item which you use to progress through the dungeon and use to defeat the boss. However, I think that optional dungeons should be slightly different. The optional dungeon is there to challenge you and reward you. I still think that bosses are good, but defeating the boss should give you the item rather than you obtaining it in the middle of the dungeon. While bosses are a plus, they are not required. The Cave of Ordeals and Savage Labyrinth (to an extent, part of it is required) are optional dungeons, and instead of having a structured dungeons with puzzles that lead to a boss, those are more of a constant onslaught of enemies that you must defeat to get the reward. While those were fun, I think that the Color Dungeon from LA was more of an ideal optional dungeon. It was like a normal dungeon, had a boss at the end, and following the completion of the dungeon you got a very good reward, that being the Red or Blue Tunic.

3. Would it have any effect on the story?

Well of course not. It's optional, right? To complete the main story of the game, you do not have to do optional things, therefore, optional dungeons should have minimal impact of the story. However, going back to the Savage Labyrinth, that did actually have an impact on the story. That's because the first 30 floors were required to get a triforce chart. I consider the last 20 to be an optional dungeon. When they do something like that, making part of it optional, that's acceptable, but if all of it is optional, then it's clearly unacceptable.

4. What about the difficulty?

It really depends on the dungeon. If it's just a small dungeon with a small reward, by nature, it shouldn't be harder than a regular dungeon. But those aren't nearly as entertaining as a big, hard dungeon, with a big reward.

Optional dungeons and sidequests in general should never be as tough as real dungeons. That's sort of a rule in gaming.

No disrespect, but I strongly disagree with this statement, MC. I feel that the point of sidequests is to give the player a challenge, something harder than the regular game. I've played many great games with plenty of sidequests that are significantly more challenging than the main story. The Cave of Ordeals did this. I felt that it was much more of an "ordeal", hence the name, than any other dungeon in the game. Besides, as I always say, the more difficult, the more fun, and sidequests/optional dungeons are supposed to be fun.

 

[Din Akera]

1. If their were optional dungeons in a Zelda game, how would you gain access to it?
2. Would it have it's own boss and item?
3. Would it have any effect on the story?
4. What about the difficulty?

1) Assessing?: I would think that optional dungeons should be simply stumbled upon, or hinted at, maybe by something like a gossip stone. We saw this type of thing with OoT's Gerudo Training, TP's Cave of Ordeals, TP's lantern dungeons, WW's Savage labryinth, MM's secret shrine. You simply found the entrances and said, 'hm? what's this?' then entered the first door and were dropped into the side dungeon. I think the only way for the dungeon to be truly a 'side' dungeon is if it is something that you find by accident. If you were told about it by a NPC in the game and had to go there to get an item or break a curse, to me, even if it wasn't a necessary thing to complete the game, I would consider it to be a part of the main quest.

2) Bosses and itmes?: Bosses and items are usually something that, again, even if it wasn't necessary I would consider to make the dungeon part of the main quest. But, at the same time, enemies that are more reflective of mini-boss status rather than boss-boss status (lol) would probably make it feel less like a main portion of the game. On the topic of items. If there was any kind of major item in one of these dungeons, even if there was no boss, I would definitely consider it to be non-optional. Best example off the top of my head is the Ice Cavern in OoT. You have to go there and get the Iron boots, even though you never encounter a real boss, just a mini-boss white wolfos. To receive an item in a side dungeon and have it still be thought of as an option place, it would have to be something like a bottle, one that you didn't necessarily need (like the ones for the Zora eggs in MM), but is always great to have. Or maybe, on the topic of MM, one of the additional masks. If a side dungeon had a major item that was not required to beet the game, but could have helped you out o your quest and maybe made it easier, I would probably have gotten quite upset having found out about it afterward. Overal, if a place had both an optional item and a mini-boss, i would consider it a side dungeon and would be quite happy with it. I enjoy endurance dungeons and option quests to lengthen the games.

3) Effect on the story?: It shouldn't if a side dungeon effected the story and I missed it the first time through because as a side dungeon it is something you would just stumble on, I would feel completely jipped. I love the story component to games. That is why i rarely really, really get into non-adventure type games like Soul Calibur, super smash bros, etc. I want to get the story the first time I play through. Leaving a piece out would feel weird and awkward, and I would not be happy with it. Now, if it simply added to the overal story, i might be more okay with it, but ultimately, no, I don't think side dungeons should have any effect on the main plot.

4) Difficulty?: Hard. Or at least, harder than the rest of the game. The point of true side dungeons, like Gerudo training grounds and the Cave of Ordeals is to be an additional challenge and to give the game some replay value. These areas are usually places you stumble upon once you are most of the way through the game and you have become fairly sufficient at fighting and figuring out the puzzles of the main quest. So these types of areas should be somewhat of an additional challenge to the player to hold interest.