No Correlation Between Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess Maps

[Castle]

"Hey! Look! Listen!" I'm not saying that there is no contextual link between Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess because Twilight Princess references Ocarina of Time out the wazoo, but I cannot see any correlation between each game's map of Hyrule.

I got to comparing the TP and OoT maps of Hyrule last night and, among many inconsistencies, noticed that the geographical positions of Death Mountain and Zora's Domain are essentially switched. This places the Hidden Village relative to Death Mountain in OoT, which would suggest that it is Kakariko Village from OoT, but there is no explanation as to why Zora's Domain would be occupying Death Mountain's location in TP. Not only that but Lake Hylia is further northwards in TP than it is in OoT and the Desert is directly west of the lake in TP instead of far northwest as it is in OoT. Snowpeak essentially occupies the same space in TP that the desert does in OoT.

Now, perhaps the most obvious contextual reference to Ocarina of Time in Twilight Princess are the ruins of the Temple of Time in the sacred grove which connects Ocarina of Time to A Link to the Past through Twilight Princess. Despite the graphical dissimilarities between the temple in Ocarina of Time and the temple seen in Twilight Princess, the fact that the temple in TP is supposed to have been the Temple of Time is unmistakable. Given that the Temple of Time was located in Castle Town and the vicinity of Hyrule Castle in OoT, this would place the town south of Death Mountain's location in TP, which fits with OoT, but retroactively south of Zora's Domain in OoT given that the positions of Death Mountain and Zora's Domain are effectively switched in Twilight Princess. This would retroactively place Castle Town somewhere in Kokiri Forest in OoT. Make sense much? A little I guess, given that the resting place of the Master Sword is now to be found in a forest, but it makes more sense that the forest would still be in the vicinity of Castle Town in Ocarina, and there is evidence to support this. If you look at the in game map of Hyrule in Ocarina of Time, there is a line of trees visible behind Hyrule Castle. The rest of the region north of Hyrule Castle is clouded out, denoting unexplored territory, but that area would correspond to the location of the forest where the Master Sword is found in A Link to the Past. Granted, the distance is a little greater, but most of the discrepancies between the Ocarina of Time map and the A Link to the Past map is due to the fact that the A Link to the Past map is rendered as square with square edges which has more to do with the nature of the graphics on the Super Nintendo. But yet the location of the Temple of Time was moved far to the southeast in an area that would most closely be the Kokiri Forest and Lost Woods in Ocarina of Time. Some have speculated that the ruins in TP may in fact be that of OoT's Forest Temple but the question as to why the Master Sword would have been moved there doesn't make any sense, and besides, the evidence to support the ruins being that of the Temple of Time is too obvious.

Then there is the sudden appearance of the Snowpeak region in Twilight Princess which throws everything off like a wild curveball (and is being presently discussed in another thread), mostly having to do with its location relative to Zora's Domain and the matter of Death Mountain's and Zora's Domain's positions having been switched between Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess. Interestingly, Snowpeak corresponds to the general location of the Desert in Ocarina of Time, which is no where near the vicinity of Zora's Domain in that game (due to the positions of Death Mountain and Zora's Domain having been switched in TP)

Now, I am aware of the usual explanation, "But Castle!! The Map of Hyrule in Twilight Princess is Mirrored on the Wii You Silly!!" Well, yes, but if you flip the map back on its vertical axis so that left is right and east is west again like on the Cube, everything still doesn't fit right!! And in fact I am using non-mirrored maps to mark the positions of everything mentioned in this post.

And I get it. Consistency in a Zelda game? GET OUT!! But why would the Big N drop the ball like this? Here they have a game that makes the most direct references to Ocarina of Time and can't even be bothered to make the maps match? I don't want a direct 1:1 match between the TP and OoT maps of Hyrule, and I suppose it is nice to have a few surprise differences between them, but these are some really big geographical inconsistencies in a game that initiated a stronger sense of consistency between Zelda games and has lent to a greater sense of series continuity. If the Big N is gonna focus more on world building in the Zelda series, then they're going to have to start paying greater attention.

 

[DarkestLink]

Where does TP mention OoT specifically? Ignore the timeline and just focus on the games and tell me.

 

[shogun_zidane]

They are standalone games with familiar areas. Nuff said.

 

[Zorth]

Here they have a game that makes the most direct references to Ocarina of Time and can't even be bothered to make the maps match?

They do match to a certain degree, but then again we can't expect "Big N" to make a map that is too similar, that would just be wrong and lazy, designing the same map again. I think the similarities are pretty balanced as they are right now. The new areas we see are just for gameplay purposes and I wouldn't worry about them too much, "Big N" shouldn't care about linking the games too much anyway I think it'll just ruin the gameplay experience trying to make past games to make sense by creating a new game.

Could they have done a better job?
Yeah, most definitely but they took my advice that I never gave them which is not to prioritize the timeline, instead focusing on the game they are creating and for it to be good. I'm pretty sure they could've just made the areas match exactly geographically and just add these new areas we see in TP by placing them in the area which wasn't visible in OoT, as if it had always been there. But despite this I'm sure fans would've pointed fingers at "Big N" for being lazy or using the invisible area from OoT's atlas as an excuse for the new areas etc.

tl;dr

It's just a game mate. ^^

 

[Castle]

[sarcasm]Orly? I always thought it was a Broadway Musical.[/sarcasm]

Okay, so, here comes the part in which I have to explain that I am not ranting or complaining. Clear? So, now that we've gotten that out of the way, the point of this thread is to posit some observations about the correlations (or lack thereof) between the geography of Hyrule in Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess and to express that I think Nintendo has to go one of two ways, not both.

1.) Either dedicate to consistent world building and greater series continuity as more recent, albeit tentative efforts have indicated (connections to Ocarina of Time in Twilight Princess and Wind Waker, Official Timeline, all of Skyward Sword as an origin story), or...

2.) Maintain the series established standard of each game being more or less standalone with a few obvious direct sequels here and there (Ocarina of Time/Majora's Mask) and disregard any sense of established continuity throughout the series, implicit or otherwise.

See, what they're doing is both. Okay, so, the allusions to Ocarina of Time in Twilight Princess can be chalked up to "fan service" and not as any particular attempt at continuity, but to me that's cheap. There will never be a Zelda game as great as Ocarina of Time if Nintendo keeps playing lip service to it. If you're going to commit to world building you need to give it 100%. This takes a lot of care and attention. Me? I'd rather that not distract them from creating a great game on its own, but inconsistencies such as this are simply jarring, especially when they give vague indications that they might be committing to a world building approach.

In the end, however, each game on its own is good regardless. Mostly my observations disprove any correlation between the geography of Hyrule in Ocarina of Time and the geography of Hyrule in Twilight Princess. That's not really saying anything. It's still fun to let our imaginations run wild with crazy fan theories and stuff. I'm not going to wrack my brain trying to find correlations between games where correlations need not necessarily exist... or need to for that matter.

Where does TP mention OoT specifically? Ignore the timeline and just focus on the games and tell me.

The ruins in the Sacred Grove is the Temple of Time. The Temple of Time has only appeared in Ocarina of Time. And to an extent in A Link to the Past given that the area in TP resembles the location of the Master Sword in ALttP.

...perhaps the most obvious contextual reference to Ocarina of Time in Twilight Princess are the ruins of the Temple of Time in the sacred grove which connects Ocarina of Time to A Link to the Past through Twilight Princess.

Other references are only implied. For instance, it is implied that the Hero's Shade is the Hero of Time.

 

[The Wanderer]

They do match to a certain degree, but then again we can't expect "Big N" to make a map that is too similar, that would just be wrong and lazy, designing the same map again. I think the similarities are pretty balanced as they are right now. The new areas we see are just for gameplay purposes and I wouldn't worry about them too much, "Big N" shouldn't care about linking the games too much anyway I think it'll just ruin the gameplay experience trying to make past games to make sense by creating a new game.

Could they have done a better job?
Yeah, most definitely but they took my advice that I never gave them which is not to prioritize the timeline, instead focusing on the game they are creating and for it to be good. I'm pretty sure they could've just made the areas match exactly geographically and just add these new areas we see in TP by placing them in the area which wasn't visible in OoT, as if it had always been there. But despite this I'm sure fans would've pointed fingers at "Big N" for being lazy or using the invisible area from OoT's atlas as an excuse for the new areas etc.

tl;dr

It's just a game mate. ^^

The real answer to "Why are the maps inconsistent?" is "Because Nintendo."

Basically.

Yeah, I definitely understand that gameplay comes first in a Zelda game and we weren't supposed to worry about the story making sense so much, but stories are an integral part of most games in the first place. If stories come off as poorly executed, players often get a little peeved. The Legend of Zelda crafting an overall narrative that makes little sense can similarly peeve people. Hyrule is supposed to feel like a personal place to adventure, somewhere we can explore and learn new things. It could be argued that slightly rearranging the geography could make it "newer" each time, but it still has the negative impression of disjointing the story and losing immersion since we can't immerse ourselves in a world that doesn't take itself seriously, if you get what I'm saying.

Hyrule can still feel new and make sense. Kingdoms change over time, including their geography. Volcanic eruptions, famines, and, of course, magic, can change the landscape and create new experiences. There can be unexplored parts of Hyrule, kind of like Snowpeak which is generally accepted as being far north of Hyrule proper. Places do change over time, and the inclusion of magic makes that so much more accessible. But Nintendo has admittedly twisted the timeline into a contradicting knot, despite Hyrule Historia's aid in unraveling it somewhat. The Temple of Time's location and, consequently, the true resting place of the Master Sword, keeps skipping around and is never actually explained. Nintendo can still make Zelda games that feel fresh geographically without contradicting themselves.

In the end, yeah, it's just a game and that's what we should focus on, but the story shouldn't be ignored, either. Games should always improve, and picking up the story by ironing out plot holes is a part of that.

 

[Terminus]

Pretty much no games have similar maps. At most they have similar areas.

 

[Deeds]

Ocarina of Time


Twilight Princess


^ for those interested.

I don't see any correlation, but there may be a pattern somewhere.

 

[Random Person]

Where does TP mention OoT specifically? Ignore the timeline and just focus on the games and tell me.

"That's one of Hyrule's legendary master fisherman! Look, he's got a Hylian loach, doesn't he? He just may be one of my ancestors!
...
Of course, I can't exactly PROVE that... It's kinda just wishful thinking on my part."

"The Legendary Hyrulian Master Fisherman... Wish I could've been born in that era."

-Hena from TP talking about the fisherman from OoT

 

[DarkestLink]

Ocarina of Time
View attachment 30953

Twilight Princess
View attachment 30954

^ for those interested.

I don't see any correlation, but there may be a pattern somewhere.

That's a mirrored map.

 

[Deeds]

That's a mirrored map.

Which one?

 

[Castle]

Thanks folks! I have been meaning to post reference material since I started this thread...

Map of Hyrule Ocarina of Time

Map of Hyrule Twilight Princess non-mirrored

same as in-game map. deviant artist simply colored it to better distinguish the various regions.

and, since alttp has been brought up, Map of Hyrule A Link to the Past

the following map illustrates the similarities between the ALttP map and the OoT map.

 

[PatheticBarrel]

Gerudo Valley from OoT would fit fairly nicely north of Gerudo Desert in TP. Line up the Spirit Temple with the Arbiter grounds.

I'll give you that Zora's Domain and Death Mountain are moved quite a bit. However, I prefer TP layout to OoT. With the TP layout, one can easily expand the Eastern side of Death Mountain over to the LoZ/AoL maps, and from there you can place FS on the south of Death Mountain, and then OoA to the east of that (Talus Peaks/Cave). You can't get much more put together than that, and trust me, I've looked at other possibilities.

 

[Castle]

Hmm... only subsequent games can confirm, but I wonder if the Twilight Princess map is a geographical "retcon" of Hyrule in order to pursue efforts to make series continuity "fit" better. This would explain its major discrepancies with the long standing geographical consistency of Hyrule that was established in A Link to the Past.

Although, Ocarina of Time is the only other game to bear that similarity given that only it and Twilight Princess are the only games to be set in Hyrule since.

The only notion that supports this, is Nintendo's indication that they might be at least showing a tentative interest in establishing deeper continuity throughout the series.

 

[Hanyou]

The ruins in the Sacred Grove is the Temple of Time. The Temple of Time has only appeared in Ocarina of Time. And to an extent in A Link to the Past given that the area in TP resembles the location of the Master Sword in ALttP.

Erm...

Spoiler

Try taking Skyward Sword for a spin sometime. it might answer some of your questions.

There isn't just one Temple of Time, and Ocarina of Time isn't the only game other than TP with said temple(s) in it.

I used to think that was a problem too.

In any case, I'd say The Wind Waker makes more explicit references to Ocarina of Time. The maps are consistent enough without being so consistent that they feel the same.