Spoiler My take on the Zelda timeline

[GwJ]

Image first, then the explanation below it:



Some explanation of my positions:

I am of the opinion TotK's entire arc (Founding of Rauru's Hyrule, Imprisoning War, Breath of the Wild, Tears of the Kingdom) happens AFTER any other games in the timeline we've already seen. I've danced around a few interpretations on how to arrange things (IW before SS, IW + TotK before SS, IW between SS/OoT and TotK late, IW in the CT/AT/DT) and have come to the conclusion that the layout that works best is a refoundation of Hyrule.

Many of the following reasons why I think it's late will be things you've heard before, but here's some things that makes me think it is the case:
1. Gerudo have pointy ears AND different eyes. (CaC suggests it's from interbreeding w/ Hylians and I think that's correct)
2. Rito exist. (We see Rito spawn as a reaction to the Great Flood. I think this means in this timeline, the Great Flood or some other later flood in a non-AT timeline that served the same purpose as the AT flood happened. This is backed up by the Rock Salt found everywhere.)
3. The Dusk Claymore (Sword of the Six Sages from TP) is already an object enshrined by Hylians by the time Thyphlo is constructed; and Thyphlo was constructed in the same era as the Imprisoning War serving as a monument to remember the Sages.
4. Treasure Maps found around Hyrule and on the Sky Islands point to many objects from past games in the Depths. Those objects must exist prior to the map leading to them being created, and considering many are found on Sky Islands, it means they existed prior to them rising which we know happens very shortly after the Imprisoning War.
5. TotK established that Hyrule Castle was created over the site of Ganondorf's seal and serves to preserve Ganondorf's seal (whether the castle itself is DOING something vs just concealing the location is irrelevant); however, Hyrule Castle is destroyed or significantly damaged in all timelines. It's destroyed outright in the AT, *seemingly* destroyed by Ganondorf in his fight w/ Midna (although it's restored in the credits, so CT may not follow this), and it's destroyed by the time of LoZ in the DT. For continuity between the IW-era Hyrule Castle and TotK Hyrule Castle, the main Zelda timeline would not be able to fit between them so it would need to ALL be pre-SS or post-timeline
6. Refounding Hyrule has precedence. We've already seen from the AT events that "Hyrule" can be refounded. They don't call it "New Hyrule" and the castle isn't "New Hyrule Castle". They call it "Hyrule" and "Hyrule Castle". If you ask someone in New Hyrule who founded "Hyrule", they're going to say Princess Zelda (Tetra), not somebody else.


There's probably some other smaller points I think also suggest this, but the above list is BASICALLY what I think the main reasons are. I can anticipate some counterarguments so below are some things I think can be brought up:

The Gerudo changing appearance doesn't indicate anything and can change between TotK-appearance and OoT-appearance.

I think this argument would hold more weight if it was only the ears that changed. The argument that the Gerudo's ears could go from pointy to round due to their connection to "Darkness" from following Ganon + Twinrova doesn't sound impossible, however when we add the eye color changing into the mix I no longer see that argument as compelling. We're told the ear thing comes from some ability to hear the gods, or reflecting the "closeness" of the person to the gods; however there's no such lore with eyes and the games don't suggest as such either. So for the Gerudo to go from pointy ears + green eyes at one point, then round ears + amber eyes later, then back to pointy ears + green eyes, there would need to be a more clear cause.

There could be more than one Rito tribe; them appearing prior to the flood doesn't contradict their WW appearance.

It's not IMPOSSIBLE another Rito tribe existed before the flood, but I think WW is pretty clear that the AT-Rito came into existence post-flood and as a direct consequence of the Great Flood. I am of the opinion that suggesting the Rito already existed and basically created a branch tribe by co-mingling with Zora is not in line with the intentions of WW's setting. One could argue because the TotK Rito are so different from WW Rito that they could easily be different. However, I would say if TotK's Imprisoning War is AFTER a/the Great Flood, it would make plenty of sense for the TotK to be the latest form of evolution the Rito are in. Originally, they were Zora. Then, they were humanlike (prior to Valoo's scales giving them wings) and used grappling hooks to move. Then, Valoo granted them scales to let them grow wings. And then finally, after a long time they no longer need Valoo's scales and have fully adapted their forms to be birdlike. There is a natural and elegant progression from Zora to Rito that we can see if we look at OoT -> WW -> TotK.

The Dusk Claymore could have been moved to Thyphlo much later than Thyphlo's creation.

This one I can't really disprove or anything, however I think it makes sense that the TotK IW-era events all happened in close proximity to each other. We know the Dusk Claymore was once in the Sage Temple underground before being relocated to Thyphlo. It's impossible to know exactly when this happened, but consider that the only way to access the Dusk Claymore at Thyphlo Ruins is to have access to the Sages' powers. Not elemental magic that matches the Sages, but the abilities of the Sages themselves. Considering we know the remaining 4 Sages were around after the IW (being involved in the raising of the Great Sky Island; so we know they're involved in prepping for TotK Link) so it makes perfect sense those 4 Sages are responsible for the puzzle requiring their powers.

Previously-DLC clothing from BotW isn't canon.

I can't argue against this one. I've seen this response regarding the item sets in TotK (Hero sets for example) as being noncanon easter eggs. I can't demonstrate that they're canon so I will let this one go if you don't think they're canon.

The Treasure Maps (and associated items) could have been created/placed at any time, not just prior to the IW.

The explanation I've heard for how they could get there is typically because of the Sheikah. I can't prove the Sheikah didn't go to the Sky and the Depths, and we actually do have some small evidence the Ancient Sheikah DID go to the Depths (Mineru's Construct digs up the Ancient Arrow/Dagger things which are obviously Sheikah-made). However, we have no evidence of really ANY outside visitation or influence in the Sky post-raising. No Sheikah contraptions are found on any of the Sky Islands nor do any of the Constructs indicate the presence of any visitors before TotK Link. For that reason, I'm inclined to believe at the very least the Sky Islands have been completely untouched since they were risen to the Sky post-IW and therefore any objects found on them must have been there at the time they went to the Sky; and therefore, all objects the Treasure Maps (in the Sky) reference must have existed in the locations the maps indicate prior to the IW.

Hyrule Castle being destroyed might not result in Ganondorf escaping his seal.

The premise of this one is that Rauru's seal on Ganondorf weakens with time. And because of that, disturbing the seal early in its lifecycle has much less of an impact than disturbing it near the tail end of its life and therefore you could rebuild the castle before TotK-Ganondorf's seal would be broken. This idea is perfectly plausible, however the game itself implies it was the exact same castle during the entirety of the seal. If you go to the back room of the Forbidden Temple, you can see a map of post-IW (but still ancient) Hyrule and it has BotW/TotK's Hyrule Castle in the center where it ought to be with the exact same design. Clearly, the implication is Hyrule Castle never fell between the IW and BotW/TotK. The only timeline where I think this is even possible is the CT so if you think the TotK-IW is pre-OoT but BotW/TotK is post-CT, then you're in the clear on this one. If you don't though, I think this response is valid.


New Hyrule being called "Hyrule" isn't the same situation as a refounded mainland Hyrule having its founder claim to have founded Hyrule.

Basically the criticism is that while New Hyrule may be "Hyrule" refounded, it's on a different land and thus isn't quite the same scenario as the same land being refounded under the same name with the previous kingdom being considered ancient history or w/e. I agree it's not the same, but the real point of bringing it up is that you can found a kingdom called Hyrule and have it be called just "Hyrule" after the original Hyrule had already existed. People interpret Rauru saying that line about being the founder of Hyrule last time he checked as him (obviously) saying he's the founder of the original Hyrule. I'm just saying that if Rauru was the founder of a new Hyrule, it would still be proper for him to say what he said. So in that sense, I don't think Rauru's statement indicates a refoundation is not at play because he could say the same thing in either scenario.






The last thing I want to address is the part of the chart at the bottom that follows some races or special people. Basically what I want to show is the tracking of the Demon King and the original Humans of the surface. I think that from the original humans, the Sheikah and Skyloftians formed; the Skyloftians become the Hylians (really just a label change) as they settle the surface. I think in the case of the Sheikah though, they do disappear from the world entirely but their spirits live on in the same way that we see the Lokomo spirits live on. When we see characters like the Lokomo, Minish, and Zonai, I think these guys are essentially the spirits of the SS Sheikah given new form, but with the exact same goal/motivations: preserve the flourishing of the forces of Light. Bring new Light into the world and cultivate that potential among its people. Sometimes, they merely guide the Hylians; other times, they save them from the brink of destructions; and other times, they keep to themselves and essentially do good deeds to make people happy (and subsequently generate Force from their positive emotions).

After this early SS-era, those Hylians diverge a bit leading to the first post-SS Sheikah, the Gerudo, and the Oocca. Note here that I think the post-SS Sheikah (aka OoT Impa's tribe) is essentially completely unique from SS Impa's tribe and would basically be a re-establishing of the Sheikah. I have both the Sheikah and Oocca coming from the Hylians because they're both non-divine humans (Oocca used to be humanoid) who all used to be unified behind the Hylian people, and we know the Oocca worked together with the Sheikah. So basically, it's because they're mortals and not spirits.

The Gerudo, in my history, are the spawn of Groose's descendants. I dunno if Groose's children were Gerudo or if it took much longer to happen (or required a specific event to happen), but eventually the Gerudo would emerge as part of Groose's lineage. And it is from these people that Demise's essence finds its first match: OoT Ganondorf.

Time passes and OoT Ganondorf is ultimately defeated (CT/AT death). After a long time, history begins to repeat itself. Ganondorf is born once again as the incarnation of Demise's hatred just like OoT Ganondorf once was. In this era, the Triforce was well hidden and so Ganondorf's goal is not for the Golden Power at the onset. In addition, the Sheikah have disappeared from history and in this era the Wind Tribe serve the purpose they once did. They are a separate tribe of pure spirit that work to preserve the forces of Light and assist the Hylian Royal Family. I also think in this era that the Minish are a new group of the Light Spirits that were given form to do what I talked about above.

It is only after he escapes the Four Sword's seal and learns of the Triforce (somehow) that he begins to seek and ultimately locate it accidentally. In this time of history, the Wind Tribe have vanished and the Sheikah reappear (although possibly in very small numbers as we only really see Impas).

NOTE: I'm not actually sold on ALTTP Ganon being the same guy as FSA Ganon so it's possible they're two distinct guys; I have them grouped together though because I think FSA sets up for ALTTP very nicely.

After all the DT games play out, Hyrule suffers destruction and reverts back to a primitive state where the Zonai will appear out of nowhere like the Minish once did. They show up, stabilize the world, create relics that will aid the land, and then they bugger off (or die) leaving just Rauru/Mineru behind leading to the IW and BotW/TotK.


I realize there's a lot here and you can honestly skip any of the family tree stuff that the bottom; that's just my headcanon for how it goes. I appreciate anyone reading this and welcome any feedback or criticism.

 

[Dizzi]

What're the red lines??

 

[GwJ]

@Dizzi Red lines basically indicate Demon King eras. The first group is the block of time in which Demise was the Demon King. Once OoT Ganondorf rolls around, he's the Demon King until he dies, then it's FSA Ganon until he dies, then it's TotK Ganon until he dies.

 

[Dizzi]

Ahh so its delineate which ganons there??

 

[GwJ]

Yeah exactly. If you follow the bottom-most chain starting with Demise, the Ganon that's between the lines is who the current iteration of the Demon King is. Once you cross lines, it's a new Ganondorf

 

[Ryuu Kage Desu]

To be honest, I think most people picking on the differences between the appearances of Hyrule castle are missing the point that things look different in different art styles. This is especially egregious when comparing top down, 2D, maps to the later 3D renditions. It's like trying to say that this:



looks nothing like this:



Both are real world depictions of Windsor Castle.

And, for what it's worth, I agree that the outfits in TotK are absolutely canon. Characters seek them out, and some react to them. They are a part of that world.

 

[Dizzi]

SEE @Chevywolf30 and @GrooseIsLoose SUN!!!! IN ENGLAND!!!!

 

[GZ Zelda]

I'm confused:

Many of the following reasons why I think it's late will be things you've heard before, but here's some things that makes me think it is the case:
1. Gerudo have pointy ears AND different eyes. (CaC suggests it's from interbreeding w/ Hylians and I think that's correct)
2. Rito exist. (We see Rito spawn as a reaction to the Great Flood. I think this means in this timeline, the Great Flood or some other later flood in a non-AT timeline that served the same purpose as the AT flood happened. This is backed up by the Rock Salt found everywhere.)
3. The Dusk Claymore (Sword of the Six Sages from TP) is already an object enshrined by Hylians by the time Thyphlo is constructed; and Thyphlo was constructed in the same era as the Imprisoning War serving as a monument to remember the Sages.
4. Treasure Maps found around Hyrule and on the Sky Islands point to many objects from past games in the Depths. Those objects must exist prior to the map leading to them being created, and considering many are found on Sky Islands, it means they existed prior to them rising which we know happens very shortly after the Imprisoning War.
5. TotK established that Hyrule Castle was created over the site of Ganondorf's seal and serves to preserve Ganondorf's seal (whether the castle itself is DOING something vs just concealing the location is irrelevant); however, Hyrule Castle is destroyed or significantly damaged in all timelines. It's destroyed outright in the AT, *seemingly* destroyed by Ganondorf in his fight w/ Midna (although it's restored in the credits, so CT may not follow this), and it's destroyed by the time of LoZ in the DT. For continuity between the IW-era Hyrule Castle and TotK Hyrule Castle, the main Zelda timeline would not be able to fit between them so it would need to ALL be pre-SS or post-timeline
6. Refounding Hyrule has precedence. We've already seen from the AT events that "Hyrule" can be refounded. They don't call it "New Hyrule" and the castle isn't "New Hyrule Castle". They call it "Hyrule" and "Hyrule Castle". If you ask someone in New Hyrule who founded "Hyrule", they're going to say Princess Zelda (Tetra), not somebody else.

1. I agree with the Gerudo thing, this has to happen after OoT
2. I agree that BotW Hyrule comes after the Great Flood
3. Yes.
4. This is a super good point....My only problem with this is that the Wild Set is also found in these locked Zonai chests, suggesting a more recent placement, perhaps by constructs working recently.
5. It isn't destroyed in AT, CT or DT? In the AT it's underwater, in the CT it's in FSA, and it's in semi-canonical material in the DT.
6. This is true, a loose refounding of Hyrule occurs in the AT.

But you're ultimately saying that BotW and TotK are a late-stage DT game? Or that the timelines merged?

 

[GwJ]

5. It isn't destroyed in AT, CT or DT? In the AT it's underwater, in the CT it's in FSA, and it's in semi-canonical material in the DT.

But you're ultimately saying that BotW and TotK are a late-stage DT game? Or that the timelines merged?

On the castle point, the AT castle is destroyed during the final battle with Ganon in OoT when it becomes Ganon's Castle and then it gets leveled. The WW surface castle is in a new location which is evident by the map of the area.

Ultimately what I think about the timeline is that there's really just 2 timelines: CT and AT. I think the DT games take place post-TP at the end of the CT rather than in their own branch. ECT (Extended Child Timeline) is a term used to describe this.

I think that BotW/TotK can plausibly take place at the end of either the CT or AT but my personal bet is with the CT mostly because it's where most of the connections and references to the world come from.

 

[GZ Zelda]

On the castle point, the AT castle is destroyed during the final battle with Ganon in OoT when it becomes Ganon's Castle and then it gets leveled. The WW surface castle is in a new location which is evident by the map of the area.

Got it got it.

I think that BotW/TotK can plausibly take place at the end of either the CT or AT but my personal bet is with the CT mostly because it's where most of the connections and references to the world come from.

And I would say the same but with a theoretical post-flood AT. The flood seems like the only shown event that could so drastically reset Hyrule to its state in TotK flashbacks, it's the only timeline with Rito and Koroks and the only timeline where the OoT sages worked with Link to defeat Ganondorf (mentioned in the Zora's monuments). But an ECT placement also works in some ways.

 

[Ryuu Kage Desu]

For what it's worth, I think that the Gerudo ear thing isn't a one way street. As they become closer to the gods (or having more Hylian blood ties), the more pointed their ears become. As they are led away from the gods (finding mates elsewhere, thinning out the Hylian genetics), the more round their ears become.

 

[GwJ]

And I would say the same but with a theoretical post-flood AT. The flood seems like the only shown even that could so drastically reset Hyrule to its state in TotK flashbacks, it's the only timeline with Rito and Koroks and the only timeline where the OoT sages worked with Link to defeat Ganondorf (mentioned in the Zora's monuments). But an ECT placement also works in some ways.

Honestly I think that reasoning is perfectly valid and among people who adhere to any timeline besides the one I proposed, the one you're talking about is the one I'm least likely to argue with.

I'll be honest, the main reason I have this as the CT is just so that the most amount of games possible could be included in the chronology. It feels a little unsatisfying to throw in references to so many games for the game to actually just be in a timeline where 90% of those didn't even happen in history.

I do think the Rito existing (I think the Rito are stronger than Koroks for arguing their existance poses an issue just cuz it's possible they used to be Korok before being Kokiri then went back again) is an indication that either THE Great Flood happened or some kind of synonymous event happened in the CT (or that the transformation is inevitable I guess).

I was actually pretty convinced for a while that that TotK indicated AT for the Rito + Korok reason but also with the idea that the sprawling root structure in the Depths indicated the Great Deku Tree's whole "my dream is to rebuild the land by extending the forests" thing.

Here's an image I put together a little while ago from that period (Link).

I think what got me away from this interpretation was that if it were true it would mean the Depths was the drowned Hyrule from Ocarina of Time's era. But, strangely, the Depths is an inverse of the surface geography, not a match. To me, that really seems like an explicit indication the Depths isn't that iteration of Hyrule which means that the idea of TotK's Hyrule being built on top of OoT's Hyrule kind of loses its compelling nature to me. We could still have a flood with the Great Deku Tree doing what he wanted to do, but I think it kind of rules out the specific OoT Hyrule being the Depths part of the argument. And if it's not the WW-Flood explicitly, that's what makes me start thinking what if "a" Great Flood were to happen in a different timeline?

Imagining these things sort of lines up with what Fujibayashi said recently about the possibility of a period of destruction before Hyrule's founding. If the ECT timeline played out such that at the end of the CT/DT timeline, SOME kind of disaster happened where Ganon was able to "win" and conquer Hyrule and a Great Flood was triggered followed by a WW-like event (although drastically different in the specifics).

A series of events like this would allowed for all the games in the the timeline to *basically* happen and allow for all their legends to be incorporated into modern day Hyrule and explain how we have AT-unique and CT-unique things comingling.

 

[GwJ]

Got it got it.

And I would say the same but with a theoretical post-flood AT. The flood seems like the only shown event that could so drastically reset Hyrule to its state in TotK flashbacks, it's the only timeline with Rito and Koroks and the only timeline where the OoT sages worked with Link to defeat Ganondorf (mentioned in the Zora's monuments). But an ECT placement also works in some ways.

You know it's funny you ended up saying this because between when I posted this and now I've been slowly making way back to TotK's Hyrule being post-flood again lol. There wasn't really anything dramatic that brought me back to it but after just thinking about it again after not thinking about it for a bit, I think there's a lot of support there.

I think there's some value in the idea of a new soft reboot game taking place in a timeline with the most games in it, but thinking just about what is presented in the game, I think it hints towards AT the most out of anything. I don't have to bring up with Rito and Koroks, but just generally the game (and CaC) speaks as if OoT happened with the Sages Nabooru and Ruto having been a thing. I think it's not really correct to speculate that the TotK-IW sages were named after their OoT counterparts and even if they did, it doesn't really line up with what we're told about those characters. The Zora monuments tell of the Zora princess protecting the domain from an evil man (Ganondorf) and then confronting him in battle with a Hero, but that never happens in TotK's IW scenario. Howevever, that is the relationship Ruto and Link had and, even if it doesn't 100% match events from OoT, I think it's close enough that it should be clear what it's talking about.

It is also kind of very hard to ignore that if you imagine the Great Deku Tree completing his plan, TotK's Hyrule is basically EXACTLY how it would look. Some major features from the previous world remain like Death Mountain and other various locations spared from the Great Flood (explaining how the Great Deku Tree is present along with Death Mountain, the Rito, Koroks, and post-flood Hylians (who no longer had a structure of government by the way; they're just scattered people without a leader in WW), and the Depths. Even if the Depths is an inverse mirror rather than a mirror of Hyrule's surface, it's still incredible uncanny that the Depths is something we would expect to see in the Great Deku Tree's vision.

There's references to other games that can't be ignored, like the Goron monument in their city, but I think the BIG stuff in the game does seem to direct us towards a post-flood AT placement.

 

[Lambsquirt]

This following is much less complicated....... "Balanced only with Lore."

Its like a math problem, only the people with the whole Equation can work out the Answer!

NOTE# "Refer to posts #6 #8 & #9 in the comment section of the following link for the "CANON DATUMS" During the timeline."

Spoiler - [Movie-Arc]L.O.Z Era of Chaos "The Hyrulian Civil War"

Possible Leak, Calculated Theory for the "Legend of Zelda Movie" The "Legend of Zelda Movie" will be based around the events in the "Era of Chaos" Before the "Hyrulian Civil War". >(Insert) -Dark Magic and Live Action Ninjutsu and Martial Arts, Tying Japanese culture to "The Sheika". -Black...

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