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Linearism is Alive and Well

Joined
Jan 1, 2009
Location
Hyrule and Azeroth
I'm scanning through it currently.

It's well written and long as hell, but really the arguments in it are really illogical, imo.

Retcons = Nintendo has changed mind = Nintendo was wrong = lolinear timeline

It doesn't work that way. Just because they have been wrong before (and ONLY due to retcons), doesn't mean that they are completely untrustworthy about the timeline and CERTAINLY doesn't mean that a linear timeline contains any more level of sense (or intent) than a split does.

Imo this sums up the article perfectly: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_solution_fallacy
 

Cody

ZD Pokemon Champion
Joined
Dec 4, 2008
doesn't mean that they are completely untrustworthy about the timeline and CERTAINLY doesn't mean that a linear timeline contains any more level of sense (or intent) than a split does.

But he didn't say that it made more sense. His argument is that there are a lot more options than just the split timeline due to the nature of developer quotes, he is not endorsing a specific version of the timeline as best.
 
Joined
Jan 1, 2009
Location
Hyrule and Azeroth
^Sure, but why actually have a timeline that relies on a logical fallacy, and is worse than the alternatives?

It's like shielding against an IC player in Brawl. Just a bad idea in general :P
 

Zemen

[Insert Funny Statement]
Joined
Nov 11, 2008
Location
Illinois
The main thing that got me was that the writer said, in so many words, that the creators never confirmed a split timeline. The page he embedded in the article leads to the timeline quotes page on ZeldaWiki and one of the main quotes that is bolded talks about OoT having 2 different endings and WW takes place after the adult ending. That clearly confirms a split..

I totally lost interest in the article after it started off being wrong.
 

Cody

ZD Pokemon Champion
Joined
Dec 4, 2008
Except he didn't say that.

Article said:
On one side, some may have already decided that I, in my many months of hiding, have somehow had my head stuck in the sand and haven’t heard about the confirmation of the Split Timeline. (I assure you that you are all dead wrong on that one.)

Guess you were who he was talking about. ;P
 
T

The Missing Link

Guest
Well this is embarrassing. Apparently I didn't check to make sure my name actually fit inside the maxLength of the name field before hastily creating an account. -.- Oh well, let's go. And I'll take the easier rebuttal first.

The main thing that got me was that the writer said, in so many words, that the creators never confirmed a split timeline.

Er...

Me said:
Now, from these individual quotes, you can come up with the famous six-game partial timeline. It starts with Ocarina of Time and then, along the child timeline, you have Majora’s Mask and Twilight Princess. In the adult timeline, you have Wind Waker, Phantom Hourglass, and Spirit Tracks.

I'm not sure where exactly you pulled that I didn't say that the developers didn't "confirm a split timeline," but I... uhm... said it right there. Now, you may have BELIEVED that I had meant it given the title of the article and maybe picking up the unintended message that the developers didn't know what they're doing, but I didn't say that last bit either.

Yes, the developers HAVE confirmed that there's a Split Timeline. My question is basically this: Is it any good?


Retcons = Nintendo has changed mind = Nintendo was wrong = lolinear timeline

That's also a rather perverted paraphrase of the premise as well, and while I do take the time to mention one specific case of this, the crux of the article isn't actually hinged upon this very point.

The theory that you're trying to disprove here is the Theory of Timeline Relativity here, which is that the developers cannot save the timeline. Because there's a human element here (and Nintendo is inherently unpredictable), I didn't raise this premise to "law" like I did the others because Nintendo COULD attempt to save it if they wished. They could (1) declare a timeline or (2) slowly and steadily make progress at building it up.

In the first case, unless Nintendo has SERIOUSLY considered this long and hard (and I don't doubt that they haven't, but I question whether or not they "care enough" to make it a fundamental pillar of their franchise), any timeline they come out with will be subject to the Zeroth Law (whereby you'll either have imperfect canon or an imperfect timeline). While sure, technically they've come out and said what they believe, and many will readily accept that, we have seen this case before... when NoA attempted to come out with their timeline. Sure, part of the reason for its rejection was that they didn't have "authority" or whatever, but the main reason for rejection was that it was just plain bad. While true, your link to the Perfect Solution Fallacy is semi-relevant in this case, people will still argue and debate, and the question won't be "settled." This besides, I flat out don't think you're ever going to see this happen; they really have zero reason to reveal this at the moment, although this may change later on.

(When and if that happens, I think we'll be able to revisit the Theory and strike it from the record then.)

The second case is to slowly build the timeline up from scratch, but as of yet, that hasn't been their focus here. Let's look at their recent history as far as making Zelda games go:

Zelda #6 is MM. MM was tied strictly to OoT and nothing else.
Zelda #7/8 is OoA/S. They were strictly tied to one another and nothing else.
Zelda #9 is WW. WW was tied to OoT and nothing else.
Zelda #10 is FS. FS was not explicitly tied to anything.
Zelda #11 is FSA. FSA was tied strictly to FS and no other game.
Zelda #12 is MC. MC was tied strictly to FS/FSA (already tied together) and nothing else.
Zelda #13 is TP. TP was tied strictly to OoT/MM (already tied together) and nothing else.
Zelda #14 is PH. PH was tied strictly to OoT/WW (already tied together) and nothing else.
Zelda #15 is ST. ST was tied strictly to WW/PH (already tied together) and nothing else.

If you believe (and it's looking quite apparent) that the timeline "started" with Ocarina of Time, each successive Zelda game over the last decade hasn't made any strides at actually solving the problem. Each Zelda game has, at best, MOVED the problem from one spot to another and, at worst, created NEW problems. There's been no game so far that has linked together multiple games to create a mega-ordering. That's the whole premise for the "arc system" whereby you link several game arcs together. It's functional, but it still doesn't have everything all nice and pretty yet.

Suffice to say, for Nintendo to save the timeline through this methodology, they're going to need to do a lot more story linkup each game... but given the number of possible deaths that Ganondorf experiences, they're going to have to leave a lot of open-possibility endings (i.e., we only seal Ganondorf away instead of kill him), and that's honestly not as satisfying to the lay gamer. They might do it once again, but I doubt they will keep doing it over and over and over and over in order to solve things.

That's my defence of the Theory. Logically, Nintendo doesn't have a timeline that they're willing to reveal. And so, moving back to your original argument, I choose to answer the question not with logic but with art.

I can look at the Mona Lisa and come away with a thousand different thoughts than you might were you to look at the painting. Is it wrong that I feel differently? No. In fact, I bet that I take away a thousand different thoughts than Leonardo da Vinci himself. Does THAT make me wrong? I would certainly hope not! From a game developer's perspective, I'd like to believe that, at some level here, what we are doing is indeed art. We can take away our various perspectives, and these can be INDEPENDENT of its painter and still have some relevance.

For example, I don't think many, if any, of the developers ever originally envisioned anyone doing a three-heart run of Ocarina, just for the sake of added challenge. But people do it with some regularity. It probably wasn't the developers' primary intent in this case.

Why not do a linear timeline for an added challenge despite what Nintendo has actually intended? You know, for added challenge? Sure, this isn't a game so much as a metagame, but... why not? Why can't we? :)
 
Joined
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Yes, the developers HAVE confirmed that there's a Split Timeline. My question is basically this: Is it any good?
Of course. You said yourself that only the developers can be completely correct.

While canon is really wierd, subjective, and loose and such, if Nintendo tells us on several occasions what the canon is then that's what the canon is.

We clearly theorize for vastly different reasons. That's cool for you that you look for a timeline out of challenge and art and not what Nintendo intends, but that's completely different from what I'm looking for.

Your article isn't really "wrong", it's just based upon a different idea of canon and theorizing than I have.

An enjoyable read for sure, but there is no way I can ever agree with it. My thoughts on canon and theorizing in general are completely different than yours.
 
T

The Missing Link

Guest
Your article isn't really "wrong", it's just based upon a different idea of canon and theorizing than I have.

And for what it's worth, neither are you wrong for enjoying Zelda in a way that highlights timeline creation. I mean, certainly, I enjoy such things as well... and it'd be weird for me to say it otherwise. Timeline creation is a lot of fun, and I do credit the people who are passionate about it. It's no less being a Zelda fan than enjoying it for other reasons altogether.

All I'm really getting at here is that... we may never really truly utterly know what the series is all about. Sure, we can try time and time again to re-analyse, reconstruct, and react to all of the crazy things that Nintendo throws at us, but it's looking more and more grim by the Zelda game that the timelines will continue to get more surreal, the leaps of logic will only get wider, and eventually we'll all be rocking back in forth in our chairs, chuckling with one another about how good things were back then.

That's my theory at least. :) Or, perhaps, call it a prediction. We'll see just how wrong I am. (It's not wholly impossible! ;))
 

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