Linear Timeline (rip into it)

[AwdryFan1997]

I think this timeline is pretty cool. But I don't quite understand the whole "that's not how time works" statement when that's literally how time travel works in all media. Going back in time creates a time paradox that splits the timeline. It's how it works everywhere, not just in Zelda. The split timeline was always intended and was confirmed by Aonuma, but regardless I can see merit in a linear timeline.

 

[thePlinko]

That's my point. He couldn't have killed his mother because he has already lived the future in which he didn't kill his mother. Same with the Song of Storms. The windmill guy has only heard the song from the Hero of Time as a child because he knows it in the future. It's all bound to one timeline. It's the same past, and the same future, all in one timeline, for every game in the series.

They all are on the same timeline; the future of Ocarina of Time has to happen because we see the past happen. You can't change it.

but that’s a paradox. A paradox by definition means that it can’t exist. The only way to avoid the paradox is for it to be a separate timeline.

 

[GZ Zelda]

I think this timeline is pretty cool. But I don't quite understand the whole "that's not how time works" statement when that's literally how time travel works in all media. Going back in time creates a time paradox that splits the timeline. It's how it works everywhere, not just in Zelda. The split timeline was always intended and was confirmed by Aonuma, but regardless I can see merit in a linear timeline.

Maybe it's an issue with media generally. I personally don't think that, if you are a time traveler, you have free will (like in Harry Potter). If you are living, and you, like, get hit by a car or something. And then you're like "I can just time travel back and not save myself from being hit by the car." No, you can't, you already got hit by the car, and your future self was already in the past when you got hit by the car. You can't change the past. You are destined to live through whatever has already happened. It's the entire premise of the themes of Zelda.

 

[AwdryFan1997]

Maybe it's an issue with media generally. I personally don't think that, if you are a time traveler, you have free will (like in Harry Potter). If you are living, and you, like, get hit by a car or something. And then you're like "I can just time travel back and not save myself from being hit by the car." No, you can't, you already got hit by the car, and your future self was already in the past when you got hit by the car. You can't change the past. You are destined to live through whatever has already happened. It's the entire premise of the themes of Zelda.

Well, if you he hit by a car, I don't see how you're in a position to time travel. On the other hand, in Ocarina of Time, Link was more than able to go back. Except, he didn't change anything, he merely created another universe. He didn't save anyone.

 

[GZ Zelda]

but that’s a paradox. A paradox by definition means that it can’t exist. The only way to avoid the paradox is for it to be a separate timeline.

But the paradox still exists in the original game. According to you, Canon Ocarina of Time and the entire Adult Branch that follows it, can't exist because there is a paradox in the game. The only way to remedy that is to have Ocarina of Time never happen (the canon ending being the prologue to TP) and then all the games fall on the Child Timeline.

That timeline would look something like OOT>MM>TP>TMC>FS>FSA>ALTTP>OOA>OOS>LA>ALBW>TFH>WW>PH>ST>Z1>Z2>BOTW

 

[GZ Zelda]

Well, if you he hit by a car, I don't see how you're in a position to time travel. On the other hand, in Ocarina of Time, Link was more than able to go back. Except, he didn't change anything, he merely created another universe. He didn't save anyone.

OOT is the car crash. Link going back to the start of OOT at the end of OOT is him going back to the same universe that the game happened in. The same universe the car crash happened in. It's the same timeline. He has no free will and whatever happens after Zelda sends him back is what happened during the game. When Link went back, he failed to stop OOT from happening. It still occurred. That's why it is able to happen in the first place. I just don't like the thought that OOT didn't happen in some of the timelines. It's not thematically sound, and then "The Legend of Zelda" is the story of three different universes. Which I'd argue isn't even how time works.

 

[AwdryFan1997]

OOT is the car crash. Link going back to the start of OOT at the end of OOT is him going back to the same universe that the game happened in. The same universe the car crash happened in. It's the same timeline. He has no free will and whatever happens after Zelda sends him back is what happened during the game. When Link went back, he failed to stop OOT from happening. It still occurred. That's why it is able to happen in the first place. I just don't like the thought that OOT didn't happen in some of the timelines. It's not thematically sound, and then "The Legend of Zelda" is the story of three different universes. Which I'd argue isn't even how time works.

Trust me, nothing in the Child Timeline is thematically sound. He did stop OoT from happening, that's explained in Majora's Mask. He goes back, but he's unable to change anything, because he went to an alternate universe.

 

[Mikey the Gengar]

why didn't the hero appear in Wind Waker, if not because of a timeline divergence?

 

[AwdryFan1997]

why didn't the hero appear in Wind Waker, if not because of a timeline divergence?

I mean, maybe he would've been dead by then, but he also went back in time at the end of OoT and died in the Child Timeline, so...

 

[GZ Zelda]

Trust me, nothing in the Child Timeline is thematically sound. He did stop OoT from happening, that's explained in Majora's Mask. He goes back, but he's unable to change anything, because he went to an alternate universe.

"In the land of Hyrule, there echoes a legend. A legend held dearly by the Royal Family that tells of a boy...A boy who, after battling evil and saving Hyrule, crept away from the land that had made him a legend...Done with the battles he once waged across time, he embarked on a journey. A secret and personal journey...A journey in search of a beloved and invaluable friend...A friend with whom he parted ways when he finally fulfilled his heroic destiny and took his place among legends..."

Nowhere in here does it say that he stopped OOT from happening. In fact, it says that he fulfilled his heroic destiny and took his place among legends IN THE CHILD TIMELINE! He's a legend, the Hero of Time is notorious. This only happens if Majora's Mask happens in the universe where Canon Ocarina of Time happened. How did he battle evil if he couldn't wield the Master Sword? How did he fulfill his heroic destiny if Ganon wasn't even successfully executed? Or prevented from getting the Triforce? He failed. He failed to stop OOT. His heroic destiny was coming back in time, telling Zelda that her dream was true and that he wielded the Triforce of Courage, then going to the King.

But it was too late. Ganondorf was like, oh no I'm screwed, let me kill the king. And then he did. And then he chased Zelda and Impa while Future Link hid. Past Link saw Zelda and Impa, was given the Ocarina, and then opens the Door of Time and OOT happens. While that is happening, Future Link finds Zelda and then does MM.

 

[AwdryFan1997]

"In the land of Hyrule, there echoes a legend. A legend held dearly by the Royal Family that tells of a boy...A boy who, after battling evil and saving Hyrule, crept away from the land that had made him a legend...Done with the battles he once waged across time, he embarked on a journey. A secret and personal journey...A journey in search of a beloved and invaluable friend...A friend with whom he parted ways when he finally fulfilled his heroic destiny and took his place among legends..."

Nowhere in here does it say that he stopped OOT from happening. In fact, it says that he fulfilled his heroic destiny and took his place among legends IN THE CHILD TIMELINE! He's a legend, the Hero of Time is notorious. This only happens if Majora's Mask happens in the universe where Canon Ocarina of Time happened. How did he battle evil if he couldn't wield the Master Sword? How did he fulfill his heroic destiny if Ganon wasn't even successfully executed? Or prevented from getting the Triforce? He failed. He failed to stop OOT. His heroic destiny was coming back in time, telling Zelda that her dream was true and that he wielded the Triforce of Courage, then going to the King.

But it was too late. Ganondorf was like, oh no I'm screwed, let me kill the king. And then he did. And then he chased Zelda and Impa while Future Link hid. Past Link saw Zelda and Impa, was given the Ocarina, and then opens the Door of Time and OOT happens. While that is happening, Future Link finds Zelda and then does MM.

This makes a lot of sense, but... where's that quote from, exactly? I know for a fact he didn't take his place among legends in the Child Timeline, but to be fair, I haven't exactly played Twilight Princess, so...

Technically, you could say the "after saving Hyrule" bit refers to him ratting out Ganon in the period before Majora's Mask.

 

[thePlinko]

But the paradox still exists in the original game. According to you, Canon Ocarina of Time and the entire Adult Branch that follows it, can't exist because there is a paradox in the game. The only way to remedy that is to have Ocarina of Time never happen (the canon ending being the prologue to TP) and then all the games fall on the Child Timeline.

That timeline would look something like OOT>MM>TP>TMC>FS>FSA>ALTTP>OOA>OOS>LA>ALBW>TFH>WW>PH>ST>Z1>Z2>BOTW

it can absolutely exist, because one of the 2 conflicting things happened in a separate timeline.

 

[GZ Zelda]

why didn't the hero appear in Wind Waker, if not because of a timeline divergence?

Because the hero was in Termina, in an endless time loop, for like a ton of time. Link was stuck in Termina for three days Termina-time, but we don't know how long he was there in Hyrule-time. Long enough for the Triforce of Courage that he had to break after it couldn't find a wielder in Hyrule. Long enough for the entire world to get flooded. The Hero of Time is essentially in an endless conflict in Termina, I theorize, until Phantom Hourglass.

 

[AwdryFan1997]

Because the hero was in Termina, in an endless time loop, for like a ton of time. Link was stuck in Termina for three days Termina-time, but we don't know how long he was there in Hyrule-time. Long enough for the Triforce of Courage that he had to break after it couldn't find a wielder in Hyrule. Long enough for the entire world to get flooded. The Hero of Time is essentially in an endless conflict in Termina, I theorize, until Phantom Hourglass.

Why until Phantom Hourglass?

 

[Mangrove]

I think this post would've been better in the already made Timeline discussion thread. Also, you can reply to multiple people in the same message by quoting.

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume none of us are time travellers or quantum won-ton physicists. As for "how time works", here's a pretty good documentary about that: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/video/the-fabric-of-the-cosmos-the-illusion-of-time/

Around 19 minutes in, the "Past, Present, and Future" part, it shows how time doesn't flow linearly but how it all exists. Skipping to 23:15, there's an example of how an alien moving on one planet can see the past of Earth (like how when we look at stars, we don't see their present state but their past state), proving that the past must exist and can not change. Then, the alien moves in another direction, showing the future must also be real.

"Once we know that your now can be what I consider the past, or your now can be what I consider the future, and your now is every bit as valid as my now, then we learn that the past must be real, the future must be real. They could be your now. That means past, present, future…all equally real; they all exist."
"If you believe the laws of physics, there's just as much reality to the future and the past as there is to the present moment."
"The past is not gone, and the future isn't non-existent. The past, the future and the present are all existing in exactly the same way."

OoT Link very much changes the past, meaning it must be on a separate timeline. WW's backstory says that the Hero of Time "traveled the stream of time and left the country behind, he did not appear.". The King of Red Lions says something similar in the English localization. "When the Hero of Time was called to embark on another journey and left the land of Hyrule, he was separated from the elements that made him a hero". Link was separated from the Triforce of the Adult portion since the Triforce of Courage was with him in the Child portion when he traveled back in time (in Zelda's courtyard). If it was referring to Link leaving Termina, then the elements that made him a hero wouldn't have separated out of him for going to a new land. Besides the King of Red Lions, other figures from Old Hyrule (Jabun, Deku Tree) only talk about the Hero of Time, as if he was the last expected hero.