You keep mentioning that Ocarina of Time lost everything after an individual plays through it the first time. Personally, I see this as a weak argument. The "Wow" factor that games give you is never going to last a second time. You said the plot twists were very good. Of course they aren't going to be a surprising the second time around. That's how all games are made, to present you with a plot that will amaze you the first time, and to present game play that'll keep bringing you back for more. The point that Ocarina of Time provided more "Wow!'s" with its plot twists is a sign of very good development on Nintendo's part. Ocarina of Time was very loosely based on A Link to the Past, and you can't tell me that if you played A Link to the Past before Ocarina of Time, you were reminded of A Link to the Past the entire time you were playing through Ocarina. There are several very key differences, which again, sets Ocarina of time up for a fresh new experience. I do agree that Twilight Princess was based much more heavily around Ocarina, and therefor, the story did seem a wee bit worn, but that's not the topic here, and can be saved for another day.
Ocarina rehashed the sage concept of Alttp that hadn't been featured before. It also had brought out the existence of two worlds and the Sacred Realm which had been introduced in Alttp. It's very difficult to add to this argument because of a lack of story in Alttp. Alttp had the same concept as OOT and in truth was expanded in OOT instead of it being so much another game.
The plot twists introduced in OOT aren't of that many to wow you into playing again though, what people played in OOT was rather the gameplay which they found good. If OOT was a movie it would be shot down in comparison to say, a Majora's Mask or Link's Awakening movie. The reason is that plot twists must also be able to leave an effect on you, however in OOT the plot twists were nothing more than "SURPRISE. SOMETHING DIFFERENT HAPPENED!"
I would be a fool to say that Majora's Mask didn't introduce a completely new story to the Zelda universe. However, just because a story is different, doesn't mean it's always better. If this was the case, why do some prefer the Wind Waker's story to Majora's Mask's? Majora's Mask, to an extent, had an even more different story than did Wind Waker. By this way of thinking, a new story does not always mean that it's preferred. Majora's Mask's story was very fresh, so why do some like Wind Waker's better, even if it wasn't as fresh? The answer is simple: Fresh storyline is not always the better story line. Games like Wind Waker can come along with a not-as-fresh story, and yet walk away as certain people's favorite. The same applies to Ocarina of Time. Majora's fresh story line does not always beat Ocarina's time travel storyline.
The thing is that Majora has a story that branches out to many different individual fronts which allows for a broader look on stories. OOT was a straightforward zoom that was good for that. However, Majora made you think on what was happening and who you effected because of how you couldn't help everyone. There was also the different feelings given off from the normal Zelda formula which gave Majora's story a good plus from the majority of the fans.
In actuality, most people liked Wind Waker because it wasn't a simple carbon copy of OOT or Alttp. In truth it was a real game with pretty good character development. It had many moments in the game that made you awe because they were that good. The game was sort of like what "Lilo and Stitch" was for Disney. It was bunked on the original ideas and while being different it was like a throwback to the old style.
Moving on to the topic of the villan, I see. Majora can be classified, in many cases, as a much more cruel and sinister villain than Ganondorf, but this does not necessarily make Majora better. To continue, you make the point that Majora added to the story unlike other villains. I tend to disagree. Ganondorf played a very important role in Ocarina of Time, and he displayed acts of evil that, although not as twisted as Majora's, showed his true cruelty. Preparing to feed the gorons to Volvalgia, freezing the zoras in their own domain, and literally destroying Castle Town are some key acts, and along with this, he contributed to the storyline just as much as Majora did. Finding out his story in Gerudo Fortress is what really got me thinking about how much he actually had to do with the story line. All the way from knocking Link down at the beginning, calling forth his own evil phantom, losing the respect of his own people, and ultimately "underestimating" the power of the Triforce of Courage that Link possesses. He did, in fact, contribute greatly.
Majora added her role by indirectly having a point in the plot. She contributes many things using symbolism rather than spoken words. This adds mystery to the character rather than the monster. She changes many of the things featured in characters lives and made sure to hit it where they hurt.
Ganondorf only broke those who challenged his reign, that would be the Gorons and Zoras. If you look at towns such as Kakarico, you'll see how he leaves most of these people alone because of how they don't bother him. Also, the Hyrule Castle Town situation was probably his first invasion of the place in which he leveled it. It's more than obvious that he just did what every conquerer does to a kingdom's main city.
He did not really lose his people's respect aside from Nabooru though until the end. (Some of them still called him "The Great Ganondorf.")
Let me make it clear that when discussing Ocarina of Time, you shouldn't bring up more plot that came along in Wind Waker. We're just discussing about Ocarina of Time with no strings attached. And my response to this paragraph can mostly be seen above. Of course, I fail to see how an eviler villain contributes to a game's plot being better. In fact, Majora's mindless killing took AWAY from the plot, because it gave up the elements of manipulation and deceiving that Ganondorf had in Ocarina of Time. This overall makes Ganondorf a deeper villain, providing for more and better plot, which is what this whole part of the discussion is about.
Majora never mindlessly killed people, she tortured them to the brink of their core. She is no serial killer, she may enjoy killing people but she likes to see them squirm. She enjoys everything because of how she is a child and doesn't understand the consequences of her actions.
Ganondorf manipulated in one really surprising way in OOT. When he got the Triforce for himself, you did not expect that. His coup de tate of Hyrule was obvious, the Nabooru thing was Twinrova's doing.
Of course, I can add that this was the game's one and only plot twist, and that it made most gamers angry in stead of shocked and surprised. After all, it's the freaking last minute of the game. I also fail to see how this is considered the biggest plot twist in Zelda history. As I said, many were just downright upset that Nintendo used the "It's only a dream" excuse that's been recycled over an over. One example is the Mickey's Magical Quest game. It ended the same exact way, a dream, so should it be considered to have a better plot twist than all Zelda games? Of course not, becuae it's a constantly reused concept. At least Ocarina of Time's ending was new and fresh.
But the thing is that you are questioning yourself in LA. In the other games that normally said it was all a dream, it's just a silly way to say "This never happened my friend. This was a what if story." However LA was meant to see what you thought of killing off people of a dream whom you attached to. A child usually follows the concept of "Heros always win without losing." What if that concept was just shattered by morals of "Why, do I have to kill all these nice people. I'm supposed to save them..." Each boss begs you to stop your quest in order to protect the people of the world. No other game had done that yet.
OOT's ending of going back to a life where everything had never happened it was done and reused. OOT was simply put "A Happy Ending" even though Princess Zelda never got to reveal any feelings for Link, the world was saved without hope dieing.
Yes, it does get predictable after Darunia, but the shock of finding out about Saria is something that first time players of Ocarina of Time remember very well. You mention brief pieces of dialogue, but you forget that that's the whole plot of every Zelda game. Brief pieces of dialogue that you get throughout the game, which feeds bits about the main storyline. There isn't much more to argue about this paragraph, because we agree on almost everything in this part.
Agreed.
Yes, of course, but this didn't influence the main story line near as much as the time traveling plot element did in Ocarina of Time. While Majora's is just a few days, Ocarina of Time's is a massive seven years, which leads to much more drawn out consequences and more of an ultimatum feeling. [/QUOTE]
Yet, in those three days, so much had happened. The land had changed to things that shouldn't have been for how long. Ever since Skull Kid got that mask, and how long did he have it. If Kafei was gone missing for 3 months then that would probably mean that the entire environment was like that for that long.
Even Ganondorf's problems seem small if he managed to only do that. He froze a lake, so Majora poisoned an entire ocean. He was going to have the Gorons immediatly killed without much torture, in MM the Gorons were going to slowly freeze to death. So a few of his monster's broke into the Kokiri Forest, Majora poisoned a swamp and kidnapped the princess so the King would go mad.
Many things Ganondorf had accomplished in 7 years doesn't make me budge really.
I disagree completely. Ocarina of Time's dungeons walked the very fine line of challenging and fun, while Majora's Mask's went to flat out difficulty and frustration. You stated talking about lack of usage of items in Ocarina, which I think is completely false. If anything, Ganon's Tower was the ultimate test of how much you actually mastered your items throughout the game, and Majora's Mask presented no such opportunity. I also find it strange that you think Ocarina's Dungeons felt incomplete. Some of the dungeons were super massive, with plenty of floors and rooms that provided much more fun than did Majora's measly few. Another point, about Ocarina being straightforward. That might be the case with the first three dungeons (Majora's Mask throws you into difficulty the first chance it gets), but when you start to enter the temples for the first time, you'll find that the dungeon's aren't quite as easy. Note that I said first time. Dungeon's aren't made to challenge you every time you play, because that would turn the replay value way down. And with items being limited to Adult or Child Link, that's the beauty of it. You get a complete different arsenal of items every time you switch, which worked out perfectly for say, the Spirit Temple.
A lot of the rooms in OOT dungeons had almost nothing to do in them except a puzzle that usually consisted of timing or rushing the clock. I also never had trouble with the dungeons in OOT my first time because of how simple they were (except for that bloody water temple.)
Majora brought difficulty out of theses dungeons because it was a sequel. The developers of Ocarina knew that they had to challenge players of OOT with something harder than the original. The game was also adding replay value by having that difficulty, if the player managed to get used to it then they would adapt and grow better.
Now on that last part I really agree with you, I wish that the Spirit Tempe concept had been used for all Adult temples in order to make the game feel more complete.
Another thing is that you could consider the Moon as the Ganon's Tower of MM because of how it challenged your skill with the Masks that you used.
I feel that when people think of "over world" in Ocarina, they immediately think of Hyrule Field which was basically empty. But, they forget about the other places, such as Kokiri Forest, Death Mountain, Zora's Domain, Lake Hylia, and Gerudo Desert, all which were packed full of things to do, and were much more interesting that the places that Majora's Mask had to offer.
Great Bay, Southern Swamp, Termina Field, Clock Town, Ikana Graveyard, Ikana Canyon, Snowpeak, and Romani Ranch. Each of these places had things like minigames, rupees to collect, sidequests to participate in, story to add, characters to meet. They had more in them than Ocarina ever did, and Majora's Mask is longer if you try to complete the game at 100%
Then again this is all opinionated so I'll just shake you hand and be on my way.
