• Welcome to ZD Forums! You must create an account and log in to see and participate in the Shoutbox chat on this main index page.

General Zelda Instead of Giving Hints to Puzzles, the Puzzle Should Have Been Removed or Replaced

Ocarina_Player

Will play for rupees
Joined
Mar 12, 2014
Location
Behind you!
the reason i don't like it is b/c i know,if say my little brother were to play it,he'll just blindly use it w/o even trying to think for himself for once [knowing his intelligence,he won't get it anyway]

Well that's your brother's problem, isn't it? And like you said, if he doesn't put some actual thought into it he still won't get it because it's a hint, not an answer. It doesn't play the game for you, it's not a walk through, it's just a helpful nudge.
 

Salem

SICK
Joined
May 18, 2013
(I have not read the entire thread and don't really intend to, so if I missed something and misunderstood, let me know; this reply is based on these two quotes only.)
Gladly.:)

You're misunderstanding the nature of the inclusion of things like hint systems. The point isn't that the puzzle can't be figured out by the average person, but that you shouldn't be restricted from enjoying the game if you can't figure a puzzle out; the option to be given a hint as to how to progress past a puzzle that "beat" you is a good one for those who want to play the game more casually. This is almost the stated goal of Nintendo, if I recall, although I can't cite it. It's not an uncommon agreement, either, and we shouldn't apply some kind of different rule for video games that doesn't exist in other modes of entertainment; when people play riddle games and one person gives a riddle for the others to solve, the others often get stumped and ask for a hint so they can have another try without outright giving up.

Anyway the very nature of puzzles requires that hints of some kind exist even if they're not hint systems of the sort you see in Zelda, because a "puzzle" that has no trail, as it were, to follow towards its solution isn't a puzzle. It's just an abstract obstacle you can only pass with a guide, trial and error, or luck. Well-designed puzzles hint towards their own solution in subtle ways. So in that way, no, hints can't ruin puzzles; hints are inherent to puzzles. Every puzzle needs hints, or "clues" as you called them later in the thread.

More obvious hints like those in Zelda hint systems are a bit different, sure, but at the end of the day, again, all they are is a system to make the game easier so getting stumped by a puzzle doesn't ruin the whole experience by barring your path. If they bother you, then you don't have to use them, in the same way that you don't have to use a strategy guide or a walkthrough just because it exists.
I get what you saying, as for the bolded part, I clarified it before

No, the fact that they're optional is NOT the issue, it was never the the point that I was making at all.


If the hint is too obvious, then that defeats the purpose of the puzzle, BUT if it's not obvious enough and too vague, then the player will end up using a guide or something, and that defeats the purpose of the HINT!

Like I've been trying to say, I'm NOT complaining about the existence of the sheikhah stones. All I'm suggesting is an alternative method to get low-skilled players to bypass puzzled instead of using the stones, because if they solve the puzzle for them, isn't having the puzzle kinda pointless?
 

JuicieJ

SHOW ME YA MOVES!
Joined
Jan 10, 2011
Location
On the midnight Spirit Train going anywhere
Salem said:
If the hint is too obvious, then that defeats the purpose of the puzzle, BUT if it's not obvious enough and too vague, then the player will end up using a guide or something, and that defeats the purpose of the HINT!

Like I've been trying to say, I'm NOT complaining about the existence of the sheikhah stones. All I'm suggesting is an alternative method to get low-skilled players to bypass puzzled instead of using the stones, because if they solve the puzzle for them, isn't having the puzzle kinda pointless?

Implying that having them be capable of bypassing the puzzle wouldn't defeat the purpose of said puzzle.
 

Ocarina_Player

Will play for rupees
Joined
Mar 12, 2014
Location
Behind you!
It would not be there tp begin with?

So your suggestion is to just take away the puzzle altogether? What does that leave for someone like me who likes puzzles? Zelda is all ABOUT puzzles. What you are suggesting really dumbs down the game. No, they should have challenging puzzles and hints there for anyone who needs them, that way they can have a fun and challenging game that appeals to a wider audience. If they make it too easy veteran gamers and long-time Zelda fans would be annoyed.
 

Salem

SICK
Joined
May 18, 2013
So your suggestion is to just take away the puzzle altogether? What does that leave for someone like me who likes puzzles? Zelda is all ABOUT puzzles. What you are suggesting really dumbs down the game. No, they should have challenging puzzles and hints there for anyone who needs them, that way they can have a fun and challenging game that appeals to a wider audience. If they make it too easy veteran gamers and long-time Zelda fans would be annoyed.
No, not all if them, only the ones that needed hints, I was saying that for a while now.

Second, Zelda is NOT about puzzles, at least for me.
 

Ocarina_Player

Will play for rupees
Joined
Mar 12, 2014
Location
Behind you!
No, not all if them, only the ones that needed hints, I was saying that for a while now.

Second, Zelda is NOT about puzzles, at least for me.

Okay, that's what I am talking about. Why dumb down the game for the ones who want a challenge when an unobtrusive hint system solves the problem? And you are very wrong, Zelda IS all about the puzzles. Just because you don't particularly care about them doesn't change that. The creators have gone on record many times talking about how the puzzles are an important part of the franchise.
 

Salem

SICK
Joined
May 18, 2013
Okay, that's what I am talking about. Why dumb down the game for the ones who want a challenge when an unobtrusive hint system solves the problem?
Fair enough.

And you are very wrong, Zelda IS all about the puzzles. Just because you don't particularly care about them doesn't change that. The creators have gone on record many times talking about how the puzzles are an important part of the franchise.
To me, Zelda is about the Adventure, the journey. Puzzles are just one aspect of the series.
 

mαrkαsscoρ

Mr. SidleInYourDMs
ZD Champion
Joined
May 5, 2012
Location
American Wasteland
Well that's your brother's problem, isn't it? And like you said, if he doesn't put some actual thought into it he still won't get it because it's a hint, not an answer. It doesn't play the game for you, it's not a walk through, it's just a helpful nudge.

have you actually seen those videos?
i don't recall the phrase "helpful nudge" meaning "here's what you're suppose to do *throws a brick at the players face* now hop to it,chauncey*
 

Ocarina_Player

Will play for rupees
Joined
Mar 12, 2014
Location
Behind you!
Fair enough.

To me, Zelda is about the Adventure, the journey. Puzzles are just one aspect of the series.

The puzzles are a part of the game play and what makes zelda interesting and challenging. It's not just running around and killing stuff, you have to think. If you don't care either way that's fine, but like I said, most of the fanbase and the creators are very big on the puzzles. To make a zelda game with out them or very easy ones would be unthinkable.



Salem said:
have you actually seen those videos?
i don't recall the phrase "helpful nudge" meaning "here's what you're suppose to do *throws a brick at the players face* now hop to it,chauncey*

No I didn't. You know why? Because I never used the damn thing! Because I didn't have to! Because they're only there for the people who can't figure out the puzzles!
 

mαrkαsscoρ

Mr. SidleInYourDMs
ZD Champion
Joined
May 5, 2012
Location
American Wasteland
No I didn't. You know why? Because I never used the damn thing! Because I didn't have to! Because they're only there for the people who can't figure out the puzzles!

then let me give you a quick summary
THEY ARE NOT HINTS,THEY LITERALLY STEP-BY-STEP SHOW YOU WHAT TO DO
to me it looks like all you know is 'i don't need to use them,so what care do i have if other people have problems w/ their existence or not; it's their problem'
 

Ocarina_Player

Will play for rupees
Joined
Mar 12, 2014
Location
Behind you!
then let me give you a quick summary
THEY ARE NOT HINTS,THEY LITERALLY STEP-BY-STEP SHOW YOU WHAT TO DO
to me it looks like all you know is 'i don't need to use them,so what care do i have if other people have problems w/ their existence or not; it's their problem'

Hey, that's exactly what I'm saying! You don't have to use them, I don't have to use them, and if your brother does then why ever not? How does that affect the game for you or me?
 

Spiritual Mask Salesman

CHIMer Dragonborn
Staff member
Comm. Coordinator
Site Staff
You know we all can just avoid looking up hints to puzzles, its not like we all have to buy a guidebook, or we all have to use the Sheikah stone from SS, we can just avoid looking for hints. I guess that's what this is about... I'm to lazy to go read back.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top Bottom