Hero's Shade: a Timeline Problem?

[Master Kokiri 9]

Okay so assuming you have played Twilight Princess you have encountered the Hero's Shade (a ghostlike entity that teaches link new sword skills) who is probably one of the Links of the past. However he is so vague that there are many things within the timeline he might change.

First of all people generally accept the Hero's Shade to be oot/mm link. This however I think is very unlikely as Tp is on the child timline hundreds of years after oot (confirmed by Aonuma himself) so this means none of links adventures in hyrule would be known.

Granted in mm on the Child timeline Link saved an entire kingdom/country but this is in an alternate dimension from which none of the people in hyrule would know about meaning no legends could form around him.

There can likely be no games between tp and oot so a hero of legend in tp and the heros shade can't form there.

The only other truly rational explaination is for there to be a game before oot in which a hero's shade forms there. But then no legends of a hero were present in oot (at least that I'm aware of) meaning the hero's shade practically blipped out of thin air. What do you think?

 

[dur.i.am]

I'm gonna go ahead and state the obvious, I don't recall TP mentioning anything about people knowing who the Hero's Shade was, Also what he actually did, Therefore the Hero's Shade can exist without causing problems to the timeline.

Also, Even though there is a 100 year gap between OoT and TP the Hero's Shade I believe states he can't allow himself to rest until he has passed on all 7 Hidden Skills, So that can explain the time gap. That and the fact that his technically undead thus giving him the possibility of being immortal.

If you see any flaws, I'd be happy to try and patch them up.

 

[Master Kokiri 9]

I'm gonna go ahead and state the obvious, I don't recall TP mentioning anything about people knowing who the Hero's Shade was, Also what he actually did, Therefore the Hero's Shade can exist without causing problems to the timeline.

False. They had legends of a legendary hero and the hero's shade is definatly the hero of legend.

Also, Even though there is a 100 year gap between OoT and TP the Hero's Shade I believe states he can't allow himself to rest until he has passed on all 7 Hidden Skills, So that can explain the time gap. That and the fact that his technically undead thus giving him the possibility of being immortal.

If you see any flaws, I'd be happy to try and patch them up.

False. While it is stated by japanese nintendo that it takes place 100 years after oot the word for century in japanese is the same as centuries in japanese and it's more likely for legends like that to for over centuries instead of a single century.

 

[dur.i.am]

False. While it is stated by japanese nintendo that it takes place 100 years after oot the word for century in japanese is the same as centuries in japanese and it's more likely for legends like that to for over centuries instead of a single century.

Yet...you can't prove this, So I'm going to go ahead and dismiss this because it's just a likely it is a legend that is a century old.

I also don't understand how anything you said makes the Hero's Shade cause a problem with the timeline.....does it matter when the Hero's Shade was alive? Not really.....

 

[Master Kokiri 9]

Yet...you can't prove this, So I'm going to go ahead and dismiss this because it's just a likely it is a legend that is a century old.

I also don't understand how anything you said makes the Hero's Shade cause a problem with the timeline.....does it matter when the Hero's Shade was alive? Not really.....

Nintendo themselves said this but it's more likely for legends and such in tp to have formed over hundreds of years instead of a hundred years. Plus some people (such as impaz) refer to them as if they happened hundreds of years ago instead of a mere century. Remember that a century isn't that long a time.

And second the hero's shade is obviously a past link meaning there is no games from whch he could've come from. Minish Cap would make sense if there were legends of a hero in oot but oot is impossible cuz none of links deeds would've been known (meaning heros shade but no legends) mm is impossible cuz all those deeds were done in an alternate dimension and the heros shade likely can't come back from termina.

No games can fit between mm and tp. Thus we have major problems with the timeline.

The only other explaination is that ZXV is between oot and mm (or even during mm) and that the link there is the hero's shade.

Also the reason I know he is a past link is because he says after teaching link the great spin something like 'Go and do not falter my child' this could simply be interpretted as a pupil-teacher moment but actually I interpret it as Link being a decendant of heros shade meaning heros shade is/was a link.

 

[dur.i.am]

Nintendo themselves said this but it's more likely for legends and such in tp to have formed over hundreds of years instead of a hundred years. Plus some people (such as impaz) refer to them as if they happened hundreds of years ago instead of a mere century. Remember that a century isn't that long a time.

So you're going to go against what Nintendo have said to try and prove them wrong.....the point being?

And second the hero's shade is obviously a past link meaning there is no games from whch he could've come from.

This is flawed by whats been said above, This legend could have easily formed over 100 years. The story of OoT also helps with the forming of a legend because of the ending.

Minish Cap would make sense if there were legends of a hero in oot but oot is impossible cuz none of links deeds would've been known (meaning heros shade but no legends) mm is impossible cuz all those deeds were done in an alternate dimension and the heros shade likely can't come back from termina.

I believe that 100 years is enough for the legend of OoT Link to form, Although I do agree with the fact that the legend isn't that of MM it still can happen, As I said though, I doubt it as well but you can't build a theory on it.

No games can fit between mm and tp. Thus we have major problems with the timeline.

The only other explaination is that ZXV is between oot and mm (or even during mm) and that the link there is the hero's shade.

I'm sure Nintendo could easily find a way, I don't know if something completely cancels out the chances of a Zelda between OoT/MM and TP but Nintendo could probably make one somehow.

Also the reason I know he is a past link is because he says after teaching link the great spin something like 'Go and do not falter my child' this could simply be interpretted as a pupil-teacher moment but actually I interpret it as Link being a decendant of heros shade meaning heros shade is/was a link.

*sigh* Once again, you can't know if the Hero's Shade is Link's ancestor based on the fact that this is your opinion....

I'm going to leave this topic for someone else know for a while...mainly for the reason that it is against the rules if I remember correctly to make a whole thread which has just two members posting over and over.

 

[TVTMaster]

Um, OoT/MM Link didn't need to become famous on the CT in order to pass skills on to his successor. He could have easily just done some random vigilante hero stuff, had kids, and then died without passing on his skills or whatever. I fail to see how his legendary status affects his existence in TP.

 

[Steve]

No one needs not to know Link's past actions on the Adult Timeline in order for him to still be the Hero's Shade. It should also be known that Link probably told the king of his struggles, seeing as he has a grave stone in Hyrule Castle's graveyard in Twilight Princess. For Majora's Mask, as I just said, he probably told the story, hence the word "Legend" in the title names. How he saved Termina is irrelevant anyway, as the land is not significance to Hyrule, so they probably would not care that much anyway. My conclusion of his identity came from a recent article from ZeldaInformer, talking about how the Hero's Shade neither is nor was a single person, rather the spirit of every chosen Hero.

Um, OoT/MM Link didn't need to become famous on the CT in order to pass skills on to his successor. He could have easily just done some random vigilante hero stuff, had kids, and then died without passing on his skills or whatever. I fail to see how his legendary status affects his existence in TP.

That cannot actually be the case, as the Hero's Shade makes it quite clear that only those of the Hero's bloodline can learn the Hidden Skills. The only one living before Link in TP, was the Hero of Time (or Link from The Minish Cap, depending on what you believe). As I've pointed out with my belief, is that the Shade isn't of the bloodline, though, he IS the bloodline.

 

[Master Kokiri 9]

Um, OoT/MM Link didn't need to become famous on the CT in order to pass skills on to his successor. He could have easily just done some random vigilante hero stuff, had kids, and then died without passing on his skills or whatever. I fail to see how his legendary status affects his existence in TP.

True he didn't need to become famous to pass skills onto a successor. But if he didn't become famous how in subrosia did legends form around him? It makes no sense. And from the legends it seems he was an 'official' hero sent by the gods or something. If tp was on the adult timeline then it easily could've been oot link but it isn't as it's been confirmed by Aonuma to be on the child timeline. If the HS is Minish Cap Link then there would have to be legends of a legendary hero in oot before (or during) link's adventures there. It couldn't of possibly been oot/mm link because there were no adventures in hyrule for that link and the adventures he went through in mm couldn't of possibly been spread to hyrule because termina is in a flippin alternate dimension.

No one needs not to know Link's past actions on the Adult Timeline in order for him to still be the Hero's Shade. It should also be known that Link probably told the king of his struggles, seeing as he has a grave stone in Hyrule Castle's graveyard in Twilight Princess. For Majora's Mask, as I just said, he probably told the story, hence the word "Legend" in the title names. How he saved Termina is irrelevant anyway, as the land is not significance to Hyrule, so they probably would not care that much anyway. My conclusion of his identity came from a recent article from ZeldaInformer, talking about how the Hero's Shade neither is nor was a single person, rather the spirit of every chosen Hero.

Okay so link had a gravestone in the hyrule castle graveyard? I never knew that. Maybe I'll look for it next time I play through tp.

Okay so a little boy in green with absolutly no connection to the royal family in any way tells the king of his adventures seven years in the future and the king just beieves him? o.o

Yeah he might've told the story but Termina is in an alternate dimension from hyrule and thus it can't be spread to hyrule.

Okay so the hero's shade is every single link on the child timeline? I find that a little hard to believe.

 

[Steve]

True he didn't need to become famous to pass skills onto a successor. But if he didn't become famous how in subrosia did legends form around him? It makes no sense. And from the legends it seems he was an 'official' hero sent by the gods or something. If tp was on the adult timeline then it easily could've been oot link but it isn't as it's been confirmed by Aonuma to be on the child timeline. If the HS is Minish Cap Link then there would have to be legends of a legendary hero in oot before (or during) link's adventures there. It couldn't of possibly been oot/mm link because there were no adventures in hyrule for that link and the adventures he went through in mm couldn't of possibly been spread to hyrule because termina is in a flippin alternate dimension.



Okay so link had a gravestone in the hyrule castle graveyard? I never knew that. Maybe I'll look for it next time I play through tp.

Okay so a little boy in green with absolutly no connection to the royal family in any way tells the king of his adventures seven years in the future and the king just beieves him? o.o

Yeah he might've told the story but Termina is in an alternate dimension from hyrule and thus it can't be spread to hyrule.

Okay so the hero's shade is every single link on the child timeline? I find that a little hard to believe.

I never said he was every single Link, I said he was the spirit within them. It's no different than Ganon, who's inside in the two Ganondorfs. Also, why wouldn't they believe Link? They obviously believed him when he told how Ganondorf would try to steal the Triforce.

 

[Master Kokiri 9]

I never said he was every single Link, I said he was the spirit within them. It's no different than Ganon, who's inside in the two Ganondorfs. Also, why wouldn't they believe Link? They obviously believed him when he told how Ganondorf would try to steal the Triforce.

Okay so the Hero's Shade is like the spirit of every single link on the child timeline but if this is true why would tp link's spirit temporaraly leave him to form the hero's shade?

And really who's to say he told them at all? Who's to say that the king caught wind of Ganondorf's evil plot through some other means like by checking on the zora's to find out that a man in black armor (Ganondorf) cursed their guardian god.

Also on the child timeline Link is more of a vigilate than a true hero.

 

[TVTMaster]

That cannot actually be the case, as the Hero's Shade makes it quite clear that only those of the Hero's bloodline can learn the Hidden Skills. The only one living before Link in TP, was the Hero of Time (or Link from The Minish Cap, depending on what you believe). As I've pointed out with my belief, is that the Shade isn't of the bloodline, though, he IS the bloodline.

Er, there's no proof that he's some kind of essence of the bloodline or whatever. If you look at his in-game dialogue, he speaks specifically of his life, not of the lives of other Links. In addition, most of Ganon's appearances have been triggered by something in particular- the Triforce of Power, the Trident, the Dark World, etc. Even assuming there is a case for your idea of the Hero'd Shade, counterevidences for his being the Hero of Time are much stronger, and are relevant to the discussion at hand. An unfounded theory is not grounds for disproving MK9's ridiculous arguments that the Shade is a paradox, whereas things based on his assumption (HS=HoT) are.

True he didn't need to become famous to pass skills onto a successor. But if he didn't become famous how in subrosia did legends form around him? It makes no sense. And from the legends it seems he was an 'official' hero sent by the gods or something. If tp was on the adult timeline then it easily could've been oot link but it isn't as it's been confirmed by Aonuma to be on the child timeline. If the HS is Minish Cap Link then there would have to be legends of a legendary hero in oot before (or during) link's adventures there. It couldn't of possibly been oot/mm link because there were no adventures in hyrule for that link and the adventures he went through in mm couldn't of possibly been spread to hyrule because termina is in a flippin alternate dimension.

The Hero's Shade never claimed there were legends about him. There is nothing to even suggest that much in any of his dialogue. He probably never became a legendary hero on the CT, but that does not mean that he could not exist as he is.

 

[Steve]

Er, there's no proof that he's some kind of essence of the bloodline or whatever. If you look at his in-game dialogue, he speaks specifically of his life, not of the lives of other Links. In addition, most of Ganon's appearances have been triggered by something in particular- the Triforce of Power, the Trident, the Dark World, etc. Even assuming there is a case for your idea of the Hero'd Shade, counterevidences for his being the Hero of Time are much stronger, and are relevant to the discussion at hand. An unfounded theory is not grounds for disproving MK9's ridiculous arguments that the Shade is a paradox, whereas things based on his assumption (HS=HoT) are.

There is also no proof that he was a simple vigilante. There was only one game before Twilight Princess, though two if you place The Minish Cap first. So it could be said he was the Hero of Time, like most spirits he had to have been a mortal at some point. He could have been a hero before then, but we have yet to receive any games with such a story. So like most topics such as this, it can merely be speculated.

 

[Master Kokiri 9]

The Hero's Shade never claimed there were legends about him. There is nothing to even suggest that much in any of his dialogue. He probably never became a legendary hero on the CT, but that does not mean that he could not exist as he is.

True the HS never said anything about legends but there are legends elsewhere in tp about a legendary hero. Quote by Renado in the following vid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaqe5jWU5wU&feature=related

See what did I tell you? Legends of a hero. Also a reason why tp is hundreds of years instead of 100 years after mm in the following vid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3OYq84xDhE&feature=PlayList&p=69397F7AAB2C0485&index=118

See? If it was 100 years after oot she wouldn't refer to the people that lived there before her like that.

 

[TVTMaster]

Um, Aonuma confirmed that it's about a hundred years, but does it matter? And does it matter at all whether or not he was famous? He had a gravestone in Hyrule Castle and, as you've shown, there are legends of a hero (maybe MC Link, or OoT Link did stuff during the 100 years), but does it matter? All there needs to be for the Hero's Shade to exist is that the Hero of Time reproduced and did not pass on his skills. It is entirely irrelevant how much time had passed or what OoT Link did after he got back to the Child Timeline. OoT Link did not need to be in any legends in order for him to be the Hero's Shade. Your entire argument is trying to expose some sort of ridiculous paradox by stating that things happened entirely unrelated to the supposed paradox, and offering it as proof.