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Ghirahim's Master

Faedeur

The Juror of Courage
Joined
Oct 25, 2009
Location
Wherever the winds take me.
I like that Ganon won't be the main antagonist of this game, nor in this game at all. Leaves room for more storytelling and gives us a break from him for a bit. If we look at Zelda games through the years, we see that a break from Ganon is needed, otherwise it grows predictable and stagnant.
TLOZ - Ganon
TAOL - Ganon (in a way, as you are preventing his return)
ALTTP - Ganon
LA - Shadow Nightmare (whoa! Hold the phone there! No Ganon!? Well.. he was a shadow form, but still, only a brief cameo)
OOT - Ganon
MM - Majora
OOS/OOA - Ganon (as a secret boss)
FS - Vaati
TWW - Ganon
FSA - Ganon
TMC - Vaati
TP - Ganon
PH - Bellum
ST - Malladus
SS - *As yet to be named higher up from Girahim*
 
Joined
May 30, 2010
Location
Australia
I don't care what anyone says.

Sorry but that offends me very. This is a forum for crying out loud it's where people discuss things from their point of view. If you can't except others thoughts then there is no point to be on here. I'm sorry, again, this offends me very much. :|

I personally think it's a new villain as a whole. Looks like we'll have to wait and see.
 
Joined
Sep 23, 2011
@ TheGerudoDragon

You were telling people that Aonuma said the triforce cannot be split in SS. He didn't. Its simple. Don't tell someone something if its not true.

Now, to show that I'm not fixating on you and trying to discredit everything you say, I definately think its ridiculous to say the Happy Mask Salesman is in that screenshot. I mean really? Because they both smile? Thats just people hoping against hope for more Majora's Mask references.

I also agree with what you said about Ganon in SS. He just won't be a major plot point. Everything else is still on the table as far as I'm concerned.
 
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Joined
May 30, 2010
Location
Australia
Ganon won't appear is SS. Stated several times in this thread and Nintendo themselves, so really, I wouldn't hope for something that's already been confirmed. :|
 
Joined
Sep 23, 2011
Do you guys think the Groose=Gerudo theory holds any water? I'm undecided on this. To make it slightly more on topic, do you think Groose could be part of Ghirahim's plot? Or maybe even somehow related to the master demon?
 
Joined
Nov 22, 2010
Location
Twisted Tea Cafe
@Zorth
I finally found out who mentioned the hint of Ss having something to do with Ganon showing up in Oot it was Aonuma!
So my speculation could be possible! and Ghirahim's master could be Ganon related ;D
 
K

KornGP47

Guest
Dear god please be Ganon's spirit, his pig spirit that is. I would love to see the blue pig in Skyward Sword's artstyle!

Too bad he won't be showing up, though. :\ And I thought he was going to, but reading the other articles, it made me think twice.
 

Zorth

#Scoundrel
Joined
Apr 22, 2011
And the word "appear" can mean a lot of things. I personally find it hard to believe that they will somehow leed into Ganondorf's rise in OoT without any visuals. A game intro like in WW is far different from an epilogue. And look at the quote again. He never actually says the triforce will be less significant by any means. All that was really meant by the statement was that one might expect to see Ganon because of the triforce, but the triforce will have a different role so don't expect to see Ganon.


THIS, Is overanalyzing.
When somebody says '' will not appear'' then they mean he won't show up, we won't see the person. You are trying to imply here that Aunoma is sending subliminal messages and lying directly for no other reason then to support your theory.


I hate it when people complain about Ganon's appearances in games. I don't care what anyone says, TP's story would have been incredibly unsatisfying without Ganondorf. Imagine killing Zant and then the credits roll. Due to his reputation, whenever Ganon(dorf) comes up in a game, there is an incredible sense of intimidation and it adds a whole new level to the story. Some games can pull off not having Ganon(dorf). They just need to really build you up to an unknown ultimate evil (Majora being a good example).


It wouldn't, What people hate is that we were chasing Zant the whole game and he got pushed aside just so we could face Ganon.
And they wouldn't have just abruptly ended the game, they would've made the final dungeon more ''final'' and left the ''Hyrule Castle'' part out.. And that dungeon was really pointless. And your opinion won't change the fact that Ganon had no palce in that game, And many critics and fans gave that game low scores because they thought Zant got pushed aside and Ganon got thrown in for no reason.


The discussion about the silhoettes is really bothering me. No thinking person can honestly tell me that the figure to the far right looks like the happy mask salesman. They are just meant to get the idea across to the viewers that they are dark beings. They all look virtually the same and no intelligent statement can be made about who they are. They are just some of many of the dark beings. Given the size and focus of the central one, it is however reasonable to speculate it to be the leader. But that's all that clearly stands out in the images.

The discussions about the sillhoettes is bothering you?
Well, You running around and claiming that Aounoma is sending subliminal messages and that ''appear'' can have many different meanings and that Ganon(dorf) needs to appear in this game is kind of weird.. isn't it?

We are speculating about an image that has got similarities with characters from other games and there are no debunks of our theories, while you are saying Ganon(dorf) will appear even though Aounoma has said he won't..

:rolleyes:
 
Joined
Oct 2, 2011
Legendary, relax it's a figure of speech. I didn't literally mean I don't care what you guys say on the matter.

Faedeur, while I agree that a break from Ganon is sometimes necessary, I don't see why you listed each game. You just proved that we've already had the biggest break from Ganon thus far with PH and ST. Plus, games that feature Ganondorf and pig Ganon feel totally different from each other even though they are the same entity.

JohnFC, if you'll recall I actually never stated it as fact from Aonuma. I personally suggested the split triforce was the reason, and I simply pondered a vague memory that Aonuma said at one point that that was the reason. I never once tried to flat out say that Aonuma said it. I do however appreciate the agreement on those other points. As for the Groose idea, it's really hard to say. I have trouble seeing him as a major antagonist though. Maybe a pawn of Ghirahim's who ends up being the first Gerudo or something, depending on if there are already Gerudos on the land below.

Zorth, as simple of a word as "appear" is, it's actually got many different definitions. Look it up. The fact that the quote is a translation from Japanese helps my case. As for the TP argument, Ganondorf wasn't tacked on with Zant kicked aside. The whole game built up for Ganondorf. The search for the triforce was what got the Ordon children kidnapped and Link imprisoned in the Twilight Realm. The fact that Zant alone wouldn't have any motivation to do that should have already gotten you thinking of Ganondorf toward the beginning of the game. Ganondorf added the best elements to the story, like the attempted execution by the sages. And Zant's story that we all like so much was a result of Ganondorf. He worshipped him as a false god and started going insane. In the end, Zant turned around and delivered the final attack to Ganondorf. Zant wouldn't have nearly the character depth or fan base without the events involving Ganondorf. And you want a debunk for your theory? How about the fact that the silhoette and the happy mask salesman have literally no traits in common other than a smile.
 

Zorth

#Scoundrel
Joined
Apr 22, 2011
TheGerudoDragon [COLOR="#FF0000" said:
[/COLOR]
''Zorth, as simple of a word as "appear" is, it's actually got many different definitions. Look it up.'' -- TheGerudoDragon


To the above.. ''Will not appear'' =/= ''Will appear''




The fact that the quote is a translation from Japanese helps my case. -- TheGerudoDragon


No it doesn't, The quote has come from many other sources other than ZD.. IGN, GT and there are interviews on YouTube.


As for the TP argument, Ganondorf wasn't tacked on with Zant kicked aside. The whole game built up for Ganondorf.

They ended the Zant story arc too soon..
It was 100% energy into chasing Zant and when we complete the Arbiter's Grounds the story arc ends and some lame story about Ganon killing a sage sets into motion and him being sent into the Twili Realm.. And the fused shadows become pointless, It feels as if that part of the game was pointless and we need to collect pieces of Mirrors.
In OoT the Spirit Stones at least had a purpose and stood in the ToT, In TP they get stolen.


The search for the triforce was what got the Ordon children kidnapped and Link imprisoned in the Twilight Realm. The fact that Zant alone wouldn't have any motivation to do that should have already gotten you thinking of Ganondorf toward the beginning of the game.

No, If you read most of the reviews when the game came out they all said that Ganon was forced into the game, And many fans feel that way. Ganon had no depth and nobody understood why he had to be in the game. He was banished in OoT and could've remained that way..

And what's even more annoying is that Zant went from ''Mysterious, cool and powerful'' to ''Whiny, Crazy and Weak''..
He revives monsters, Steals fused shadows from Midna but his boss fight is the most pathetic in the series.

If they would've left Ganon out.. And made Zant the evil guy that wants control over the world then the games story would've been ALOT better.
Good graphics and loads of dungeons will never make up for that. And many of the dungeons were forced into the game too.

I don't hate the game, But it could've been better.


Ganondorf added the best elements to the story, like the attempted execution by the sages.


That was one element, And why would the sages try to execute him?
He was sealed for good.. And isn't it kind of strong to ''execute'' him?
There is no logic in some of the TP plot.


And Zant's story that we all like so much was a result of Ganondorf. He worshipped him as a false god and started going insane. In the end, Zant turned around and delivered the final attack to Ganondorf.


No it wasn't..
Zant had that mysterious personality to him, We were shown that he was powerful and many people believed he was the main villain. The Final Boss should never be introduced in the middle of the game.. In every other Zelda game the main villain does something bad in the beginning in the intro:
Vaati turning Zelda into Stone.. (MC)
Ganon throwing Link into the sea (WW)
Ganon posioning Deku Tree, Causing trouble for Gorons, Chasing Zelda (OoT)

In TP, Midway through the game when Zant was the baddie he killed a sage and we were told that he wanted to take over the world and cloud it in darkness. So in TP we have to be told that Ganon is evil, He can't show it.. Doesn't that show you that he was forced?


Zant wouldn't have nearly the character depth or fan base without the events involving Ganondorf.


He sent the troops kidnapping the children in Ordon, Turned Hyrule into Twilight, Held Zelda Hostage etc.
And we thought he did all of that for himself and o he could rule the world.. but we were betrayed
Ganon only made him look like a puppet and pathetic villain.. :)



And you want a debunk for your theory? How about the fact that the silhoette and the happy mask salesman have literally no traits in common other than a smile.

It's farfetched..
BUT, The happy mask salesman is known for his ''smile'' and the other one does look like Girahim (Ears, Smile, Hair, Cape).
And keep in mind that a developer has said Ganon won't appear, But nobody has said anything about the silhoettes.
 
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Joined
Sep 12, 2011
Location
Halifax
I remember reading those statements by Aunoma, in which he said (I'm going to paraphrase this, as I'm too lazy to find the actual interviews) Ganon wouldn't be appearing in the game, but SS would somewhat explain how he came to be the nemesis in OoT that we all loved to hate. I also remember thinking to myself, "Self, are you there? Is there a word for foreshadowing in Japanese? 'Cause it sounds an awful lot like that's what he's trying to say, and maybe we're just loosing a little something in translation? Keep up the good work, Self, you dashingly handsome devil you."

So, going with that interpretation of Aunoma's words: I gather that Ganondorf will not appear in the game (as I presume he hasn't even been born yet, though I have no idea how long people, let alone Gerudo men, live in Zelda lore); but events will transpire within the plot that foreshadow his rise, and or corruption that have clearly already happened by the beginning of OoT. That said, it begs the question: how do you foreshadow a man's rise, and or corruption, without him being within the plot itself? I think there's a few different ways of doing that, with varying levels of effectiveness and dramatic importance. I'll list a few methods that have popped into my head, but with the disclaimer that while I am trying to think logically (in an algebraic manner) it really is utter speculation. Now then:

-Link may meet one of Ganondorf's parents, who will perhaps mumble something about naming their unborn child "Ganondorf". (While that would classify as foreshadowing, this example seems a little too unimportant an event to me, or to justify Aunoma even mentioning it.)

-Link may encounter a small boy, or even infant named Ganondorf, and this child may at some point be spirited away by the witches that comprise Twinrova, of which I've forgotten the names. (This is foreshadowing as well, and also seems a more significant event than the prior example; but it doesn't really sit well with me, as it doesn't quite explain why he's so driven to take over the world.)

-Perhaps Link will defeat Ghirahim's master, at least in form, and its remaining malevolent spirit finds its way to the infant Ganondorf or one of his ancestors, and then fuses with that person. Heck, maybe Ghirahim's resurrection plot even involves the finding of a new body for his master to inhabit (in something akin to possession), and that body is to be an unborn Ganondorf, or one of his ancestors. Or perhaps a blending of those two related ideas. (That's definately foreshadowing, explains Ganondorf's desire to rule the world, and a sufficiently significant event to justify Aunoma's comments in interview; but also keep in mind, I know while that theory is walking about in a nicely tailored logic suit, it's still wearing speculation underwear.)

It should be obvious that the last point seems the most likely to me (and the most nerdgasimly satisfying), though I should overtly explain the variables and subsequent math that's lead me to that inclination (remember to show your work kids):
1. The forging of the Master Sword. At some point within the game it will happen, and I imagine in true fantasy form, it will be made out of necessity to specifically defeat Ghirahim's master.
2. Aunoma's comments about the explanation (or foreshadowing) within SS of Ganon's appearance in Oot
3. The Master Sword seems to be Link's weapon against Ganon in most of the games they both inhabit, much like Vaati and the Four Sword (I don't really count Four Sword Adventures, or whatever the game was called that featured Vaati, the Four Sword and Ganon. It felt more like a Zelda Party game than an actual LoZ story, and seemed a bit confused with its placement or identity).
4. Throughout the games (Even way back during my first playthrough of ALttP), the impression grew within me that the Master Sword was perhaps intended by its makers as a bane, or counter, to either Ganon or the misuse of the triforce. There was nothing said directly to that effect, and so it really was just a feeling; but by design or not, that feeling came quite easily to myself and many others; so I wonder how aware Nintendo was of that 'impression' in the making of SS.
5. The main baddie in the SS intro does bare at least some resemblance to Ganon's beast form (though to be fair, it also resembles something I've scraped off my shoe as well).

Ergo, my math is as such: Presuming that the Master Sword will be forged to specifically defeat said baddie (as it no doubt will), my third foreshadowing example would fit nicely in as an explanation to why Ganondorf seems so keen on repeatedly getting the happy end of the Master Sword in his squishy bits, without him appearing in person within SS. Not because it was forged for him, as myself and others had felt, but rather the force within him that is Girahim's master, be its name Ganon, or King of Darkness, or... Tim.

You have to admit, that theory does seem to work. However, if I am completely off base (which is quite possible), I do hope the reality is superior to that theory. It'd be a shame for Ganondorf's "OoT explanation" to fall short of something that effortlessly popped into some of our minds.

As final note: I don't think Ganon is a tired character, or plot point. Quite the opposite in fact; he's an integral part of the Zelda Trio when the Triforce is a feature. If he feels tired as a character, I'd say it's rather that individual game plot that's failed, not the character (I'm looking at you Four Sword Adventures). However, even in his more criticized recent role, Ganon felt epic to me in TP. From the moment I noticed Link's Triforce of Courage mark on his hand (an example of foreshadowing, quite early in the game), Zant felt out of place as the main baddie. That Twili felt intimidating as a powerful sorcerer; but he didn't feel like he belonged in that role, as he wasn't crushing-the-world-under-his-boot powerful like Ganon was.

My speculation underwear has triforces on it.
 
Joined
Oct 2, 2011
@Zorth Did I say that he will appear? While "will not appear" =/= "will appear", "will not appear" can mean "will not have his main antagonist role". And all those sources are the same translation so I don't see your point. No single translation is perfect. It's like if a literal translation of "Mario Bowser show importance he can shall not" were to be translated to "In this Mario game, Bowser will not appear" so that it makes sense in our language. It does not mean the exact same thing though, especially with a vague word like "appear".

The fused shadows were what enabled Midna to break the barrier around Hyrule Castle and reverse the beast Ganon transformation. Not to mention the fused shadows were the main reason Link even bothered to defeat Zant's sorry a**. And Ganondorf kind of had to show up for the timeline to make sense. In the child side after OoT, Ganondorf is set to be punished for what Link warns he would later do. TP's story elaborates on the events of the execution and how Ganondorf didn't end up dying.

And really Zant went from mysterious, powerful, and out of place to insane, confused, and powerful. That adds personallity to him and satisfies the the player's curiosity about him. And Zant didn't send the beasts after the Ordon children, Ganondorf did. What does Zant care about the triforce? A thinking person that is playing through TP for the first time would have been thinking, "hmmm this Zant guy is trying to spread the twilight, but who is really in charge? Who is after the triforce and why? Huh! Could it be Ganondorf?! He's always the one after the triforce. That would be sooo cool!" I mean, most people including myself think that Ganondorf is the coolest, most evil antagonist of the Zelda series and we like seeing him.

And what makes you think that Zelda games (or a good story in general) have the main antagonist apparent from the start? Usually, that's rather boring. And most Zelda games don't do that. (e.g. MM, LA, OoX, LoZ, AoL, FSA).

@Clearly Those possible examples of the foreshadowing you explained would involve visuals. Those are the sorts of roles I imagine Ganondorf having in SS, and they would involve visuals of him as I've been saying. And you seem to agree with me about TP. Very good.
 

Dio

~ It's me, Dio!~
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England
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Absolute unit
NOOO WAAAY!
great find.. Hadn't noticed that, I knew he was hiding something. No wonder he knew so much about Majora's Mask...
The worrying thing is he has it back now.

And you want a debunk for your theory? How about the fact that the silhoette and the happy mask salesman have literally no traits in common other than a smile.
He appears to have the same hair parting and a collar as well as the creepy smile, so those are the traits he has in common. That is like you saying the demon on the far left has nothing in common with Ghirahim apart from the long ear and the collar.
 

Zorth

#Scoundrel
Joined
Apr 22, 2011
@Zorth Did I say that he will appear? While "will not appear" =/= "will appear", "will not appear" can mean "will not have his main antagonist role". And all those sources are the same translation so I don't see your point. No single translation is perfect. It's like if a literal translation of "Mario Bowser show importance he can shall not" were to be translated to "In this Mario game, Bowser will not appear" so that it makes sense in our language. It does not mean the exact same thing though, especially with a vague word like "appear".


Something you have been trying to say all the time, That he will appear.
And the only reason you get into these arguments is because your theory has been debunked.


The fused shadows were what enabled Midna to break the barrier around Hyrule Castle and reverse the beast Ganon transformation. Not to mention the fused shadows were the main reason Link even bothered to defeat Zant's sorry a**. And Ganondorf kind of had to show up for the timeline to make sense. In the child side after OoT, Ganondorf is set to be punished for what Link warns he would later do. TP's story elaborates on the events of the execution and how Ganondorf didn't end up dying.


So for the Zelda timeline to make sense.. Ganon needed to appear in TP?
The timeline is something fans have made up to see how the games connect, Nintendo has confirmed that one exists but hasn't released one.
TP's story was about Link trying to revert Hyrule back to a land of Light and defeat Zant. But Ganon got forced into the game and the story got messed up.

Tell me, What was the point off having Zant in the first place?
He was a pawn, But still we chased him the whole game. We hardly even saw Ganon until the game, Did we even talk to him under the course of the game?


And really Zant went from mysterious, powerful, and out of place to insane, confused, and powerful. That adds personallity to him and satisfies the the player's curiosity about him.


He was powerful yes.. Reviving skeletons, Stealing artifacts from Link who possesses the courage shard..
Then he gets defeated by Link, And the boss fight was PATHETIC. He was running around acting like a chimp, And he actually got beaten more than 5 times.. Since he switched boss fight all the time.


And Zant didn't send the beasts after the Ordon children, Ganondorf did.


Yes we find that out after beating the game.. or do we.
As far as I know those troops obeyed Zant. And he is the one creating inter-dimensional portals and sending minions to kill us the whole time, How come Ganon doesn't do that?


What does Zant care about the triforce? A thinking person that is playing through TP for the first time would have been thinking, "hmmm this Zant guy is trying to spread the twilight, but who is really in charge? Who is after the triforce and why? Huh! Could it be Ganondorf?! He's always the one after the triforce. That would be sooo cool!" I mean, most people including myself think that Ganondorf is the coolest, most evil antagonist of the Zelda series and we like seeing him.

He is the coolest antagonist in the Zelda series, But he got forced into the game. And Nintendo won't be making the smae mistake again.
Would it have been so terrible if somebody else was the main villain of TP?

That game's story got bent after pushing Ganon inside, Instead of bending Ganon's purpose in TP after the story.. get what I'm saying?
 

Dio

~ It's me, Dio!~
Joined
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Location
England
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Absolute unit
He is the coolest antagonist in the Zelda series, But he got forced into the game. And Nintendo won't be making the smae mistake again.
Would it have been so terrible if somebody else was the main villain of TP?

That game's story got bent after pushing Ganon inside, Instead of bending Ganon's purpose in TP after the story.. get what I'm saying?

I think it would have been allot worse if somebody else was the main villain in TP. Ganon is very popular and still people thought he was forced in. People know exactly who he is and his presence is intimidating. If the Game was exactly the same but with Malladus instead of Ganon (back then he was not known at all and it would have been his first appearance) I think people would have really complained since he would have felt out of place.

The way the game made Zant out to be this cool main villain and then reveal he was just a servant was what was wrong with the storyline. If you had known about him serving Ganon from the very beginning and then giving Ganon more screen time either by meeting him earlier on or with flashbacks like his execution scene, then he would have felt allot more part of the story rather than just a plot twist for the sake of a plot twist.
 

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