Forum Merger Discussion/Suggestions

[Soul]

I'd like to join in and say I appreciate your work aswell Nate. You come over as very sincere in your ambitions and I'm glad to know someone who cares will be working for the forum staff.

 

[Jamie]

My issue is you keep talking about how tight a ship you run over at ZI, all of these conditions everyone has to abide to, moving the line further away from where it is now, etc. I don't want any of it moved. I was here when it was more strict; it was ****. I have pride in the fact that I helped loosen the rules. I appreciate you trying to help and I like how you're active in suggesting things, but I really don't want the board culture to change. If it doesn't, that's fine with me.

 

[TatlTails]

My only concern is that the **** that happened last time the forum changed doesn't happen this time. I do NOT want my private RPs lost again, and if that happens, I will sue. I'm not kidding, I will sue this **** website. I'm still extremely ticked about what happened last year, don't you guys dare let it happen again.

 

[Nathanial Rumphol-Janc]

My issue is you keep talking about how tight a ship you run over at ZI, all of these conditions everyone has to abide to, moving the line further away from where it is now, etc. I don't want any of it moved. I was here when it was more strict; it was ****. I have pride in the fact that I helped loosen the rules. I appreciate you trying to help and I like how you're active in suggesting things, but I really don't want the board culture to change. If it doesn't, that's fine with me.

The tight ship is really more so about the staff environment. Having requirements and restrictions with clear paths to no longer being part of the team anymore has lead to increased productivity and staff cohesiveness.

For the fans, the ship is only tight in so much that we hold the same standards across the board. Our community is fairly open, we just don't accept attacking other people. That's really the big one.

My only concern is that the **** that happened last time the forum changed doesn't happen this time. I do NOT want my private RPs lost again, and if that happens, I will sue. I'm not kidding, I will sue this **** website. I'm still extremely ticked about what happened last year, don't you guys dare let it happen again.

You can't really sue. I understand your frustrations. As for "private RPs" - how do they exist? In what form? I am not prying, I can look into how they would specifically move over. VB (and IP to Xenforo isn't very clean - but moving to IPB seems to be cleaner in my experience. But unless I know how this content exists, I can't know if it will transfer or not.

 

[Jamie]

The tight ship is really more so about the staff environment. Having requirements and restrictions with clear paths to no longer being part of the team anymore has lead to increased productivity and staff cohesiveness.

For the fans, the ship is only tight in so much that we hold the same standards across the board. Our community is fairly open, we just don't accept attacking other people. That's really the big one.



You can't really sue. I understand your frustrations. As for "private RPs" - how do they exist? In what form? I am not prying, I can look into how they would specifically move over. VB (and IP to Xenforo isn't very clean - but moving to IPB seems to be cleaner in my experience. But unless I know how this content exists, I can't know if it will transfer or not.

There was an issue switching over where all visitor messages posted before a certain date did not get carted over. Another tech staff and I looked it over a bunch and we figured it probably had to do with a database change, but either way it wouldn't transfer.

 

[TatlTails]

You can't really sue. I understand your frustrations. As for "private RPs" - how do they exist? In what form? I am not prying, I can look into how they would specifically move over. VB (and IP to Xenforo isn't very clean - but moving to IPB seems to be cleaner in my experience. But unless I know how this content exists, I can't know if it will transfer or not.

In the old forum move, I lost two years' worth of RPs in the Instant Messages. Currently, I have all my RPs in the Private Messages. I would really love not to lose them, since to this day I miss not being able to read the stories I lost before.

 

[Nathanial Rumphol-Janc]

If it's Private Messages, those should all transfer over.

 

[TatlTails]

OK good. Very relieved to hear that.

 

[Emma]

That's not what I said. That makes at least 4 times now I asked you what you wanted to do with integration. :/ I am literally asking, not dismissing.



I still don't really understand the point of rewards. But if you make too many, doesn't that make them pointless anyways? As for the Wiki titles and rewards - I mean fine. But is that really all this is about? Because giving some arbitrary titles and allowing some sort of reward for being part of the wiki doesn't at all to me seem like something that is pushing and promoting the Wiki - but rather is just something for people who already do stuff at the Wiki. Like, I am really intersted in your ideas which is what I keep asking - but is this it? Because if that's all this is about I am positive the staff and I can agree on this stuff. I just don't know how much that's going to help.

Uhm, whoa. You really, really have got to stop assuming every idea I suggest is the end all, hold all, master plan of ideas with absolutely nothing else in the pipeline being considered. If this was all just about awards, it'd have been incredibly petty. If the only thing we were doing for the wiki was awards, and that's it, nothing else, no other promotion, no other integration, nothing, it'd be pretty ridiculous because on their own, they wouldn't accomplish much at all. I do think awards will help the wiki, but only in combination with all the other plans we're doing, like the netwroking, linking, social promotion, etc. that Mases discussed, that I first suggested to him earlier before he forwarded it to you. Think of it like death by a thousand cuts. We want to kill the wiki's stagnation, and sometimes just one big, grand master stroke won't accomplish that and we have to do a lot of little things instead to build up to it. Awards are a fun, harmless little diversion. Yes there can be too many, and there can be too few. I had assumed we understood that the key to these issues is trial and error. If something doesn't end up working, change it! We don't have to get the right balance right away, it can be a work in process as we inch closer to what works over time.

I actually have a lot more in mind for integrating the forum into the wiki. For one I think there has to be integration of its staff, so people can see "hey, the admins here are the ones over there, if they treat us well here, they will there too, maybe that'll be a good environment to work in." I want to involve the community more in things the wiki is doing. Ask them their opinions on a more regular basis, like polling. Perhaps using the forum community to poll for good pictures and articles we can turn into featured articles instead of relying on our much smaller contributor base to do that voting (which hasn't been working). We can run contests periodically (it's my understanding ZI has done that before with its wikis).

It's much more nuanced than people have been assuming. But it's exactly what I've been saying, I want to get them involved, making the wiki an integrated part of the community that people don't view as a separate entity. And I'm very, very convinced that having it off on its own domain, isolated on a URL of its own, will just go too far to reinforce that view that it is isolated and separate regardless of how badly the big heads up top want to think it's all one seamless object. That won't matter to the people further down the ladder and especially for just viewers, who we want to entice into joining (that I would prefer join the forum first to become part of the community before going to the wiki). And speaking on that, simply having the forum there as very clearly and firmly attached to wiki in itself is meant to draw in contributors just by being there, by existing, so they can see a thriving, active community. And you keep missing the other very important thing I keep saying that of all possible sources of long term contributors, a forum is the most valuable source.

However we encourage forum dwellers to join the wiki is irrelevant, when they do, they're going to be attached to the site, and care about its future, its growth. They will not so casually abandon it or get bored. The average contributor that comes from a typical viewer drawn in from the front page or social sites is not going to be that reliable because they're not that attached to the community. They haven't already been with the people they're going to work with because they weren't on the forums. They are far more likely to get bored and leave. That's why I've been saying over and over, despite no one even bothering to listen, that all this other promotion is going to be excellent for obtaining viewers but absolutely worthless for getting reliable contributors. We NEED the forum to be the main source of contributors and I do not understand why people keep so casually dismissing it (actually I do, it's mostly resentment over me personally and not an actual consideration of my ideas).

Declaring "wikis don't need forums." Why? Have any of YOU been running a wiki for four years, being a major part of another one for a previous four? I've seen the turnover. And the unreliability of people drawn in other ways is exactly why we're so slow now. We got our absolute best wiki editors when the forum did do its user title promotions. Everyone we got any other way were completely undependable. And we didn't start our dive into stagnation until the previous forum administration gutted our every incentive to join that was in place and blocked all efforts to replace it with something else, spreading a lot of anti-wiki rhetoric (and removing links to the wiki) in the process. We've been dying a slow death ever since. So I resent these constant assertions that the forum means nothing to wiki when my experience very clearly shows that it is vital. I am adamant that it's absolutely essential.

I have stated numerous times that nothing is going to change. What I AM doing is listening to your folks complaints and seeing if there is any way to address them. As an example - there does seem to be some disagreement and issues with the Zelda forum structure - is it possible it can be done in a better way that suites everyone? Why is say, "ZI's rules and organization" suddenly this terrible thing? Our rules basically are the exact same as the rules ZD already has. Our organization is different, but it's not worlds apart either. The only big differences are besides Zelda boards, we have less other stuff - but it wasn't always that way.

As for staff by ZI staff, plan is for me to be an admin below jimmy and for two others from ZI to be mods. So sure, there would be ZI folks, but I mean, of course there would be? ZI does have some really active users that are most certainly going to be part of the boards moving forward. While things are mostly staying as is, you do have to understand it is a melding of two communities together. Are you just going to be that inconsiderate of the other side? Already write us all off before you really get a chance to know the wonderful people at ZI?

There seems to still be this stigma around that ZI has these rules and this attitude that is completely different from ZD. That isn't the case at all and hasn't been for several years. I mean, we haven't had a massively active forum in nearly 4 years. But that was due to database concerns mostly because of mismanagement of it by the former owner. At the end of the day, we have to learn to coexist or you're just always going to be angry. I think we can, but you have to be willing to give it a chance or it doesn't matter.



It's been stated 50 times over. :/ Not sure what is so unclear really.

1. Forums are being combined.
2. Forums are combining into the premium IPB software and hosted on ZI's side of things to take more advantage of universal accounts.
3. Forum structure, rules, are staying the same as ZD is currently.
4. All posts, users, bans, threads, and all that are moving over.
5. For addons currently in place, equivalents will be found and added before the forums go live again.
6. As with any combination, some ZI staff would be part of the forum team. Only makes sense (like myself).
7. Jimmy is still head of the forums.

So for you folks you are changing software and url, but gaining better infrastructure with the accounts and the increased userbase from Zelda Informer combined with the extra promotion to grow the community that Zelda Informer possesses.

The only thing I really care about is that everyone is treated equally. I can't guarantee that happens perse. But I know it's a goal of mine and it seems to fall in line with your folks desires. Beyond that, all I am doing is making suggestions. They may all get shot down. That's fine, I can live with that. I'm just generally trying to make this an even better place in anyway I am able to. But one thing should be fairly clear - I don't force things to happen. If folks shoot it down, they shoot it down and that's that.

I of course, being against the forum move, think that we should keep both forums in place. However that doesn't mean we can't make changes. We have heard some good ideas. I do really like a fixed Future Zelda section. It's much more sensible than what we've been doing. I don't see the harm in exchanging as many ideas as possible regardless of what ultimately ends up happening.

 

[Nathanial Rumphol-Janc]

Uhm, whoa. You really, really have got to stop assuming every idea I suggest is the end all, hold all, master plan of ideas with absolutely nothing else in the pipeline being considered.

Never assumed. I asked for what you wanted to do and that's what you brought up. :/ I mean, if there is more, say it. I'm glad you finally are below.

I actually have a lot more in mind for integrating the forum into the wiki. For one I think there has to be integration of its staff, so people can see "hey, the admins here are the ones over there, if they treat us well here, they will there too, maybe that'll be a good environment to work in." I want to involve the community more in things the wiki is doing. Ask them their opinions on a more regular basis, like polling. Perhaps using the forum community to poll for good pictures and articles we can turn into featured articles instead of relying on our much smaller contributor base to do that voting (which hasn't been working). We can run contests periodically (it's my understanding ZI has done that before with its wikis).

We have ran contests and giveaways to massive success in driving wiki activity. In fact, some our best and most long standing contributors (and now former wiki staff) came out of such tactics. As for admins, I have no say over that - though having wiki staff banners is probably something far more feasible, or specifically, wiki "admin" banners and maybe even some modship over a wiki specific forum. Giving overall admin to an admin at the wiki is a much grander responsibility and not one I think the forum staff is so keen to go for.

It's much more nuanced than people have been assuming. But it's exactly what I've been saying, I want to get them involved, making the wiki an integrated part of the community that people don't view as a separate entity. And I'm very, very convinced that having it off on its own domain, isolated on a URL of its own, will just go too far to reinforce that view that it is isolated and separate regardless of how badly the big heads up top want to think it's all one seamless object.

The way we were starting to avoid that at ZI was well, much more obvious. Take a look:

http://wiki.zeldainformer.com - for starters same layout and feel across the board. Doesn't feel isolated because it feels like a natural part of the site. Beyond that, all accounts were integrated. It wasn't a hassle to go from commenting to the forums to the wiki. Making users create all these different accounts is a big turnoff. ZI already has such integration in place - it is entirely possible using our infrastructure that it could occur between the boards and ZD's wiki too. I think the idea of splitting off the wiki (like ZW did from ZU) is more or less that it creates symmetry between ZI and ZD - neither site looks like they are just pushing another site's feature, but rather they are both uniformly supporting a more free flowing wiki that each can call their own. Of course, this is what I have gathered. Only Mases knows the real reasons that was ever considered.

That won't matter to the people further down the ladder and especially for just viewers, who we want to entice into joining (that I would prefer join the forum first to become part of the community before going to the wiki). And speaking on that, simply having the forum there as very clearly and firmly attached to wiki in itself is meant to draw in contributors just by being there, by existing, so they can see a thriving, active community. And you keep missing the other very important thing I keep saying that of all possible sources of long term contributors, a forum is the most valuable source.

I understand your viewpoint on this. I think forums are an excellent resource, but they aren't the only way of gaining valuable contributors and they may not even be the way to get the most contributors anymore. But I know you disagree on this and nothing I can do but getting the opportunity to show you other ways over time is going to alter that view point.

However we encourage forum dwellers to join the wiki is irrelevant, when they do, they're going to be attached to the site, and care about its future, its growth. They will not so casually abandon it or get bored. The average contributor that comes from a typical viewer drawn in from the front page or social sites is not going to be that reliable because they're not that attached to the community. They haven't already been with the people they're going to work with because they weren't on the forums. They are far more likely to get bored and leave. That's why I've been saying over and over, despite no one even bothering to listen, that all this other promotion is going to be excellent for obtaining viewers but absolutely worthless for getting reliable contributors. We NEED the forum to be the main source of contributors and I do not understand why people keep so casually dismissing it (actually I do, it's mostly resentment over me personally and not an actual consideration of my ideas).

Just going to have to fundamentally disagree with you on this. Your problem is that you separate viewers. You segment them. If you treat them that way, then the results you get will just confirm your viewpoint. At ZI we don't treat our users that way. Our fans on FB, twitter, comments, forums - they are all of equal importance to us and we treat them with respect in kind. As such, our very best staff members and contributors come from all over. FB followers, twitter followers, commenters, forum goers, etc. Our staff discovers us and wants to be and cares so greatly about us from all of these avenues and there really isn't any one avenue that sticks out as "more reliable" than the other, because we don't treat these avenues as being less important. because we treat them so evenly, there is a real trust and care from our fan base no matter how they enjoy our content. can't tell you how many heartfelt letters and personal emails I get from all over the place about ZI. It's heartwarming. These people care about our success sometimes even more than I do.

I certainly understand why you view it the way you do. Honestly, ZD's fan base is pretty fractured int hat regards and that's fine - they rely more on google than true networking even as they have a huge FB page. But I can tell you that ZI is a very unique place in this regard. Until you really engrain yourself in it, it's really hard to understand because you're right - that's not how it works most everywhere else. But it does at ZI and it's absolutely fantastic. It's odd to me that most other outlets don't see the value we do in respecting and treating all fans the same regardless of how they enjoy your work. You foster respect, you gain their trust, and they in turn care a heck of a lot about you. Rather than, well, the typical discord you might see on an IGN post on FB or something on their page, where the people that follow them seem to just be around to hate on their work.

Declaring "wikis don't need forums." Why? Have any of YOU been running a wiki for four years, being a major part of another one for a previous four? I've seen the turnover. And the unreliability of people drawn in other ways is exactly why we're so slow now. We got our absolute best wiki editors when the forum did do its user title promotions. Everyone we got any other way were completely undependable. And we didn't start our dive into stagnation until the previous forum administration gutted our every incentive to join that was in place and blocked all efforts to replace it with something else, spreading a lot of anti-wiki rhetoric (and removing links to the wiki) in the process. We've been dying a slow death ever since. So I resent these constant assertions that the forum means nothing to wiki when my experience very clearly shows that it is vital. I am adamant that it's absolutely essential.

ZD itself underultilizes and doesn't properly connect and treat their fans equal everywhere. It's a harsh reality, but Mases knows that. He recognizes that ZI excells in this whole community building and feeling of unity that ZD really doesn't. ZD excells in static content that gets traffic from google. ZI excells in building an entire fan base around a name and that's why the ZI brand is so valuable. ZD's brand loyalty exclusively comes from these forums.

ZI's brand loyalty comes from everywhere we are.

It's really hard to explain. What you have seen at ZD doing this stuff is not the same as you'll get at ZI.

I of course, being against the forum move, think that we should keep both forums in place. However that doesn't mean we can't make changes. We have heard some good ideas. I do really like a fixed Future Zelda section. It's much more sensible than what we've been doing. I don't see the harm in exchanging as many ideas as possible regardless of what ultimately ends up happening.

Hey, I'm on the side of them being separated, but I also understand why Mases wants to do what he does and I do see a long term benefit for the community here in that it gains the help of ZI and truly is a focus of the site.

That being said, that's all I am doing really. Just throwing out ideas and seeing if anything sticks enough that it's evne worth me approaching the forum staff about, and these ideas are mostly just based on the complaints.

 

[Emma]

Never assumed. I asked for what you wanted to do and that's what you brought up. :/ I mean, if there is more, say it. I'm glad you finally are below.

Well.... I'm still not sure you didn't assume that, because in this very post you've said that

I understand your viewpoint on this. I think forums are an excellent resource, but they aren't the only way of gaining valuable contributors and they may not even be the way to get the most contributors anymore.

Never once did I say they were the only resource.
Yet you acted like I did. So I think you can understand why I'd say you're assuming that.

We have ran contests and giveaways to massive success in driving wiki activity. In fact, some our best and most long standing contributors (and now former wiki staff) came out of such tactics. As for admins, I have no say over that - though having wiki staff banners is probably something far more feasible, or specifically, wiki "admin" banners and maybe even some modship over a wiki specific forum. Giving overall admin to an admin at the wiki is a much grander responsibility and not one I think the forum staff is so keen to go for.

It'd be part of the whole unified continuity thing. And besides, whenever my ideas actually followed, they tend to work. And when they're ignored, things typically get worse. I do happen to know what I'm doing. But people who rock the boat and question things are usually never made forum staff. It's typically unknowns who have never spoken up before, who never questioned everyone. Good little boys and girls who have zero experience. Some learn, grow, and adapt into their situation and manage to excel. But almost every single one leaves because they can't take it. All while valuable people who know what to do who can handle it are ignored because some people are too stubborn.

The way we were starting to avoid that at ZI was well, much more obvious. Take a look:

http://wiki.zeldainformer.com - for starters same layout and feel across the board. Doesn't feel isolated because it feels like a natural part of the site. Beyond that, all accounts were integrated. It wasn't a hassle to go from commenting to the forums to the wiki. Making users create all these different accounts is a big turnoff. ZI already has such integration in place - it is entirely possible using our infrastructure that it could occur between the boards and ZD's wiki too. I think the idea of splitting off the wiki (like ZW did from ZU) is more or less that it creates symmetry between ZI and ZD - neither site looks like they are just pushing another site's feature, but rather they are both uniformly supporting a more free flowing wiki that each can call their own. Of course, this is what I have gathered. Only Mases knows the real reasons that was ever considered.

If the wiki is supposed to start standing on its own two feet and stretch its legs, it can't be gutted while it does so. If it's going to take its place at the forefront of ZD, it needs its own foundation. Think of it like a state in the US. The country as a whole is united, but the the individual states themselves need their own structure and their own support for things to work at their best. I absolutely don't think it can reach its potential without its own forum. And THIS forum, should be that forum since ZI is taking over front page duties. I see a larger future than Mases does. He's thinking in very small terms, and is trying to push aside things he doesn't want to deal with, without thinking about the long term consequences. I don't see us ever moving out from Zelda Wiki's shadow without our wiki expanding beyond the borders set by Zelda Wiki. The argument "Zelda Wiki doesn't have a forum, so why should we?" makes no sense whatsoever. WHO. CARES. WHAT. ZELDA WIKI. HAS. OR. DOESN'T. HAVE?! They're not us, we're not defined by them, we don't have to limit ourselves BY THEM. They don't do something? That doesn't mean we shouldn't. We need a forum, and we need other ideas to offer things Zelda Wiki doesn't (one that's been rattling around my brain is maps sort of like Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages has but I'm not entirely sure how to do that). We NEED our own forum. We need to move beyond what Zelda Wiki is. We need to rise above their self-imposed limitations. We started the wiki in the first place because we didn't agree with their limitations they insisted on. We offered interviews. Something ZW was against, but we documented them like crazy and it's now a major resource we have. That's how we got to think. I want a forum, yes, but there has to be more. We have a community, the one you're so proud of. We could do things.... like post questions, run polls, something like that asking people what they think it should have that they can't get from Zelda Wiki. And what about my idea to involve the community at large in voting on featured articles and pictures instead of the tiny contributor base doing that?

I understand your viewpoint on this. I think forums are an excellent resource, but they aren't the only way of gaining valuable contributors and they may not even be the way to get the most contributors anymore. But I know you disagree on this and nothing I can do but getting the opportunity to show you other ways over time is going to alter that view point.

Just going to have to fundamentally disagree with you on this. Your problem is that you separate viewers. You segment them. If you treat them that way, then the results you get will just confirm your viewpoint. At ZI we don't treat our users that way. Our fans on FB, twitter, comments, forums - they are all of equal importance to us and we treat them with respect in kind. As such, our very best staff members and contributors come from all over. FB followers, twitter followers, commenters, forum goers, etc. Our staff discovers us and wants to be and cares so greatly about us from all of these avenues and there really isn't any one avenue that sticks out as "more reliable" than the other, because we don't treat these avenues as being less important. because we treat them so evenly, there is a real trust and care from our fan base no matter how they enjoy our content. can't tell you how many heartfelt letters and personal emails I get from all over the place about ZI. It's heartwarming. These people care about our success sometimes even more than I do.

I certainly understand why you view it the way you do. Honestly, ZD's fan base is pretty fractured int hat regards and that's fine - they rely more on google than true networking even as they have a huge FB page. But I can tell you that ZI is a very unique place in this regard. Until you really engrain yourself in it, it's really hard to understand because you're right - that's not how it works most everywhere else. But it does at ZI and it's absolutely fantastic. It's odd to me that most other outlets don't see the value we do in respecting and treating all fans the same regardless of how they enjoy your work. You foster respect, you gain their trust, and they in turn care a heck of a lot about you. Rather than, well, the typical discord you might see on an IGN post on FB or something on their page, where the people that follow them seem to just be around to hate on their work.

Except I'm not saying to cut off those other sources. I never said that reliable people can't come from them. What I said is that they usually don't. That doesn't mean we don't do them. Which is unlike what you're saying, to disregard the forum's role in bringing in people ot the wiki just because there have been some dedicated people from other sources in your experience. But you're only remembering the determined ones that stay. By its very nature a front page is very competitive and those that don't make the cut don't stay. Don't say it's not, I was in the call where we discussed exactly that. A wiki isn't that. It's never going to go up to someone and say "you're not the most obsessively productive person here, you gotta go." Everyone helps. And if we get enough people, we can actually allow people to have personal lives that doesn't require them to dedicate their lives to an unpaid hobby. I don't ask for quotas or concrete commitments. what I expect is people to show up when they can. Problem is almost everyone we get any other way never does. We have one person, one, just one that came from a non-forum source that is still with us. And he is fantastic, incredibly dedicated. So I'm not blind that it can't happen. But our best times were from forum involvement. This isn't some insane theory on my part that you can just casually dismiss, it already happened, and it worked. There's no guessing required since it's already happened and worked like I said it would.

ZD itself underultilizes and doesn't properly connect and treat their fans equal everywhere. It's a harsh reality, but Mases knows that. He recognizes that ZI excells in this whole community building and feeling of unity that ZD really doesn't. ZD excells in static content that gets traffic from google. ZI excells in building an entire fan base around a name and that's why the ZI brand is so valuable. ZD's brand loyalty exclusively comes from these forums.

ZI's brand loyalty comes from everywhere we are.

It's really hard to explain. What you have seen at ZD doing this stuff is not the same as you'll get at ZI.

That's the thing though.If the forums move to ZI, there will be no brand loyalty to ZD. The front page crew will be pushed to ZI, and the wiki's community is less than a dozen people. There will be nothing left when the forums are moved. We will not be in a healthy position. No matter how much you want to think that viewers will understand that ZI and ZD are a unified community, they are never going to see that. They are from the outside looking in. None of them will get that until they become a part of it. Everyone has seen cross site links before. They are across the internet and it usually indicates a simple partnership, not a networking.

Hey, I'm on the side of them being separated, but I also understand why Mases wants to do what he does and I do see a long term benefit for the community here in that it gains the help of ZI and truly is a focus of the site.

I don't see how shutting down these forums (be honest, that's exactly what this is), is a prerequisite for getting ZI support. It's completely able to do so without that, and already is experienced with attracting people and directing them to other places. This forum shutdown doesn't need to happen. Mases CAN change his mind. He was absolutely adamant in the past that shoutboxes were a waste of space and whenever we had the slightest technical problem, he'd blame the situation on the shoutbox, remove it, and keep blaming it the next time even though removing it never accomplished anything and did nothing to stop the technical problem he blamed it on. And yet now he admits that it's very important to the community and he asked that it be retained after the move. He can change his mind. He just has to be convinced. Resigning ourselves to this is not the answer. We have to make it clear it's a bad decision. And convince him to not do it.

 

[Mipha]

I can't find the exact post to reply to, but I agree with removing IP bans. I have been banned and recieved infractions for family members and a friend without a computer trying to join. This would nullify the whole problem.

 

[Nathanial Rumphol-Janc]

I don't see how shutting down these forums (be honest, that's exactly what this is), is a prerequisite for getting ZI support. It's completely able to do so without that, and already is experienced with attracting people and directing them to other places. This forum shutdown doesn't need to happen. Mases CAN change his mind. He was absolutely adamant in the past that shoutboxes were a waste of space and whenever we had the slightest technical problem, he'd blame the situation on the shoutbox, remove it, and keep blaming it the next time even though removing it never accomplished anything and did nothing to stop the technical problem he blamed it on. And yet now he admits that it's very important to the community and he asked that it be retained after the move. He can change his mind. He just has to be convinced. Resigning ourselves to this is not the answer. We have to make it clear it's a bad decision. And convince him to not do it.

Going to get things back on track a tad. Just noting that if ZI and ZD have their own boards, naturally ZI is going to promote ZI's boards, not ZDs. It's not that it's a pre-requisit, it;s that it makes zero sense to promote two different forums to one community.

That's all. With that I take my leave of this thread. Too much back and forth that I don't really feel is ultimately productive at this point.

 

[Emma]

Going to get things back on track a tad. Just noting that if ZI and ZD have their own boards, naturally ZI is going to promote ZI's boards, not ZDs. It's not that it's a pre-requisit, it;s that it makes zero sense to promote two different forums to one community.

Well you don't have to say it so negatively.
If that's what we end up doing, that'd actually make more sense. The way I see forums is to help serve the community they are attached to. Forums don't exist to be traffic magnants. They don't need active promotion as badly as other parts do. If things go as I suggest, the wiki would support the forum. One tiny example is encouraging casual discussion on talk pages to be taken to the forum, since they should be about what to do with the article, not about its subject. Since I see forums as a supporting element of a large community, things like that are all the promotion it needs. What ZD needs from ZI isn't forum promotion, it's wiki promotion. I'm still not convinced you quite get what I mean with contributor promotion, which is why I'd like us to handle that ourselves. But there is no denying you are amazingly well skilled at visitor promotion. It was the main reason why I thought this acquisition was a good thing. Since visitors come to ZD for the walkthroughs and the wiki, not the forums, the former pair is what needs to be promoted.

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

My issue is you keep talking about how tight a ship you run over at ZI, all of these conditions everyone has to abide to, moving the line further away from where it is now, etc. I don't want any of it moved. I was here when it was more strict; it was ****. I have pride in the fact that I helped loosen the rules. I appreciate you trying to help and I like how you're active in suggesting things, but I really don't want the board culture to change. If it doesn't, that's fine with me.

The thing about strict staff is they've felt too robotic. Never felt like they're also regular members. The thing I liked about the staff purge was all that changed. The ideology of our current staff is definitely ideal.