Faith in the Zelda Games

[Shadsie]

Alright, listen up. If this turns into one of those "Christianity vs. Atheism" topics we see down in the supposedly-Mature Disscussion all the time, I'm gonna cry to a mod to close this thread so fast it will make your head spin.

~~~~~~~

This is about themes of faith / the gods/ the goddesses/ divinely-appointed destiny in the Zelda games.

There is something I have found with fiction, in reading it, writing it and so forth, and it is this: People seem to be more willing to "accept" things if they are presented as fictional and in fictional worlds than if it's laid out before them as something someone says is truth. Call this the willing suspension of disbelief - but with certain matters, it isn't even entirely that. Something in a theme of faith is different than say, a falling moon with a grinning face that's going to destroy the world in three days, or fish-people with mammary glands.

I remember once somene describing the Zelda games as "a world based on a religion," and the more I think about it, it is. You have the three Goddesses (described by most in another topic on here - one I'm sure was erased in the big hack - as being on something of a basic "Diest" model) - They created the world and don't seem to interfere very much/very directly anymore. You have a holy relic of immesne power they left the world (the Triforce), you have demonic forces and a demon king (Ganondorf), and you have something of a messianic figure ("The Hero," Link).

Furthermore, - and I really felt this when playing TP for the first time... Link was praised by one of the Light Spirits (Eldin, if I'm not mistaken), as being a youth of "great faith." Zelda is shown to pray in most games... the Sages in OoT and WW are specifically slated as people who pray to keep certain aspects of the world in order. Ganondorf is shown, especially in TP, as being someone who wants to usurp/cast down the gods and become a god unto himself... So faith is a very strong theme with individual characters, as well.

I related to Link a lot in TP when he was called someone "of faith." It was something I related to in a small way, because, while not a Fundie, I take an interest in spirituality and personal faith. So, I really liked that my player character was someone "of faith" in canon - even if his specific beliefs were not my own and what he put his faith in wasn't what I put my faith in - it is still a theme that I liked.

Yet, at the same time, I had to wonder about people playing TP who don't take a liking to spirituality. I've met quite a few people online, fans of Zelda (and quite a few on here), who aren't much for the whole "faith thing" in real life, who don't "have their heads in the clouds," if you will, like I do. I've seen some people even quite hostile to the idea of "faith" - as in, seeing it as something that makes people blind and so forth.

Whether or not it does or doesn't isn't the issue here. What is, is... how did you feel about these themes and the fictional religion playing Zelda? How do you feel about the themes of faith within the fiction? Is it something off-putting, or is it something acceptable for being a part of a good story / a sweeping fairy tale?

Furthermore, in future Zelda titles, would you like to see themes of faith expanded upon, or see more in the ways of the intervention and/or of the nature of the Goddesses? Or other dieties?

Would you like to see more characters display skepticism? (This can be done well in fantasy stories - an excellent example is the anime/book series The Tweleve Kingdoms. There's all kinds of magic around everywhere, and minor gods that walk among the populace, rulers are immortal, etc; yet one of the semi-main characters, a sweet and stuidous half-rodent-person professes freely that he does not believe in the gods, and there are other characters of the skeptic type, since what we'd consider "magic" is so common in their world).

This is about themes in fiction and storytelling. As said above, if this becomes a debate upon real world beliefs, it's a gonna get closed. Stay civil and explore fiction, please.

 

[(◕‿◕✿)]

The more I think about it, the more I agree, beliefs (deism in Twilight Princess and polytheism in Ocarina of Time) are a major part of the series, or at least most of the later games.

Furthermore, - and I really felt this when playing TP for the first time... Link was praised by one of the Light Spirits (Eldin, if I'm not mistaken), as being a youth of "great faith." Zelda is shown to pray in most games... the Sages in OoT and WW are specifically slated as people who pray to keep certain aspects of the world in order. Ganondorf is shown, especially in TP, as being someone who wants to usurp/cast down the gods and become a god unto himself... So faith is a very strong theme with individual characters, as well.

I thought it was rather interesting how faith and deities (if you want to call them that) seemed to play something of a fundamental role in Twilight Princess, especially with the Spirits, and later with Ganondorf. The notion of Ganondorf wanting / trying to usurp and cast down the gods, in my opinion, really adds to the story and makes it more interesting.

I related to Link a lot in TP when he was called someone "of faith." It was something I related to in a small way, because, while not a Fundie, I take an interest in spirituality and personal faith. So, I really liked that my player character was someone "of faith" in canon - even if his specific beliefs were not my own and what he put his faith in wasn't what I put my faith in - it is still a theme that I liked.

Even though I can't relate to that, I still liked how that was done. I think it gave him more "personality", something I'd like to see more in the series.

All in all, I really like these themes in Zelda. I think they contribute a lot of the plot and the overall game. Not only does it add depth to the story, but I think it makes it more interesting to play though - even if the religion and world is fictional, it makes more 'real', in a way, whilst still remaining fantasy.

If more developed and intricate religions and spiritual beliefs (perhaps ones similar to what you mentioned about Ganondorf) were prominent throughout the series in the future, I would indeed like to see both more fundamentalist characters, as well as skeptics. I think this would really enhance the overall quality of the story and game.

Likewise, more information (and perhaps even more involvement) of the goddesses and even other deities is something I definitely wouldn't mind seeing.

 

[Zeruda]

I'd like to begin my post by saying that "faith" or some form of religion in the Zelda games are a large part of the series as a whole. Without it, there really wouldn't be much of a story. The series as a whole is based on this fictional religion, so it's definitely a big part of what holds the stories together. Without it, there wouldn't be a Triforce, and there would be Link, Zelda, or Ganondorf to oppose/support the gods. Without it, it'd be just another mediocre fantasy game.

I think that the creators and everybody who added their own bits and pieces to the religion are very imaginative. While they stick to a classic and simple "gods create the world" legend, they manage to make it detailed without going over our heads with it. They've developed it enough so that the characters' roles depend on the religion, but at the same time, the players can grasp it and embrace it regardless of whether or not they have faith in the real world.

While each individual game's story is different, it's all based around the religion- trying to become a god, fighting against the evil, and even bringing the actual goddesses into play every now and then. While the goddesses may not always interfere, destiny plays a large part in the main characters' roles, so the goddesses are always making an impact, even if it isn't a direct one. It's interesting, because the characters don't seem to be stuck with a certain path, but whatever path they choose leads to some predestined point in their life. It's neat seeing free will and destiny come together so smoothely.

However, it seems that all of the character accept the existance of higher powers. The series spans over centuries and centuries, so you'd think that, over time, people would become more skeptical of the gods, especially with the horrors that befall Hyrule from time to time. Personally, I think it'd give the games a little more depth if, later in the timeline (both sides), characters would express skepticism. I think it'd be neat to see some opposition between believers and nonbelievers. It'd be cool to see some characters gain faith and others lose it.

Religion, like I said, plays a major part in the series, and I think it could really be expanded on if characters expressed more belief or lack thereof.

 

[basement24]

I don't mind that there are elements of faith in the series, regardless of how integral to the plot they are. I don't think the series needs to delve further into the concepts of what the people of Hyrule believe in and the like mainly because it's about the black and white nature of good and evil personified in Link, Zelda and Ganon. Getting into who does and doesn't believe in the legend would be a little too adult I think. Going beyond the basics they are at now might get too in depth for Nintendo's level of action / adventure.

I am by no means religious, but I don't mind at all that the games are surrounding what the people of Hyrule believe in. I never found that any of the games were thrusting anythign down my throat, or were offended by any content. TP is in my top 3 Zelda titles and all the talk of gods and goddesses and the like didn't bother me in the least.

 

[Shadsie]

Personally, I think it would be interesting to see a skeptic or two - and not "portrayed evil" but as regular people. I find the "Flat Earth Athiest" trope as TVTropes puts it interesting. I'd imagine they believe in magic, of course, as magic is the way their world works - (I think of magic in Hyrule as being a lot like the "flow of nature" and as being something that replaces a lot of technology). After all, we in the modern world have all kinds of amazing things - cars, airplanes, elevators, the Internet, and we have explainations for them all and see them as mundane. To such people, magic would be viewed as not something that comes from the gods, but as just a part of the natural world. I could see them arguing with those who insist that magic comes from the gods.

Still, I think Link, Zelda and Ganondorf are intrinsically bound to the Goddesses and should not have this skepticism - ever.

I could see this working in a "young" game, in light touches, but I wouldn't want any religious wars or very deep/complex delvings into Hyruelan beliefs unless it was a "teen/adult" game, like OoT or TP style.

 

[ironknuckle1]

Religion in Zelda

IN Zelda if you notice their are things that remind you of different religions and religious like place. Some are that The Temple of Time in OoT is like a church from the outside and their is a large altar in it. IN TP a man asks for donations for his church. The triforce is a three part body each piece related to a certain Goddesses just like christianity believes in three gods in one the triforce could be similar. All im trying to say is do you think Hylians believe in a Religion and could it be that the worship The three Goddesses and The triforce other then being an almighty power is a symbol for it? In medievel times the church would control a large part of the government due to its enormous power and in Zelda the Triforce is used over sacred doorways such as the door of time or on places through out Hyrule like the hylian Shield.

 

[elliotstriforce]

the religions in Zelda are towards nature. example the spiritual stones are forest, fire, and water and they get the whole spiritual part from the spirits of the earth and i believe that is the most important thing to remember while you are playing Zelda games. and if link is the hero of anything in other games it should be the hero of spirits.

 

[Master Kokiri 9]

IN Zelda if you notice their are things that remind you of different religions and religious like place. Some are that The Temple of Time in OoT is like a church from the outside and their is a large altar in it. IN TP a man asks for donations for his church. The triforce is a three part body each piece related to a certain Goddesses just like christianity believes in three gods in one the triforce could be similar. All im trying to say is do you think Hylians believe in a Religion and could it be that the worship The three Goddesses and The triforce other then being an almighty power is a symbol for it? In medievel times the church would control a large part of the government due to its enormous power and in Zelda the Triforce is used over sacred doorways such as the door of time or on places through out Hyrule like the hylian Shield.

i never noticed that. But I think Nintendo just decided to give it a bit of a real world touch with the religion. After they seem to love t base things in Zelda off of real world things. Like the Great Flood between OoT and WW. It greatly resembles the story of Noah's Ark.

 

[Shadsie]

The Triforce - yes, I see a similarity in it to the Holy Trinity of Christianity, and to the general "body, mind, spirit" concept, but... "threes" are popular across religions. 3 is considered a harmonious number. If I'm not mistaken, Pythagorus of Ancient Greece proposed a cosmology based on numbers in which 1 was the "most pure" and 3 was likewise auspicious...

The Goddesses also can be compared to the three Fates of old Grecian mythology... and I believe the Norse had something similar - the three "Norns," I believe. The three Fates being the three sisters that controlled all aspects of life.

This shows up in other entertainments out of Japan sometimes. There's the manga (and anime) that's been going on for decades - "Ah, My Goddess!" It's about a young modern Japanese man who's life is turned upside down by three Goddesses, one of whom he ropes into being his girlfriend if I'm not mistaken (It's been a while since I've watched the anime and it's my fiancee' who's the big fan of this). The Goddesses of this series are very clearly (almost explicitly) based upon the Three Fates of Greek Mythology.

So, I wonder if Hyrule's Goddesses are, as well.

 

[Steve]

I would very much like to see a game that revolves around Hylian faith, even giving depth into the backstory. People always like to make fics about an evil fourth goddess, or something along the lines of that, and I think that would be a good concept. Religion, out of any topic sparks the most debate, we all know that. It's the key factor in most wars, and it would be interesting to see a game revolving around some sort of group defying the religion, erupting into numerous battles (like the Medieval Crusades). I think that kind of concept would be too dark for Nintendo to ever consider, but I think it would make a great storyline.

 

[ironknuckle1]

The temples of many of the games are related to their sages Forest, Fire, Water, Spirit, Shadow, and Light. As seen in WW the sages prayed in their temples in what is usually seen as the boss room. This is probably why the temples of OOT were made for the sages to pray and worship in. In the beginning of Oot Link must find the three Spiritual Stones each with their own look. The protectors of each Medallion are the Kokiri-Forest, Zora-Water, and Goron-fire. in other games these symbols are seen in artwork around these races. This probably means that after OoT these races being of the same religion as Hylians proved that through these symbols and became part of their artwork. These symbols that in one way or another represented the Triforce and the goddessess (due to the color of each medallion relating to the color associated with each Goddesses) proving their relation to the crown or to Hylian religion. Many people think that the Hylians didn't really have religions but that they worshiped the Earth and air and so on. This is true but not exactly how they say it. The hylians turned six different places into Holy grounds A Forest, A lake, A Volcano, A graveyard, A temple relating to the after life And A temple that relates to Time. These six places are the six places where the sages temples were built to House The medallions of Forest, Fire, Water, Shadow, Spirit, and Light. Hylians did not worship the Earth they were on but the locations of the Temples where it was thought that the Sages may be able to talk to the Gods through Prayer.

I would very much like to see a game that revolves around Hylian faith, even giving depth into the backstory.

If you look at it OoT has that. It shows a backstory into what they believe and then gives symbols used in many other zelda titles to show faith. But I don't like the idea of a fourth goddess because i feel like the Triforce represents the Gods and that would go against them because three gods three triforce peices it makes me feel like their should be a fourth part which is what I don't want because it goes against what was set up in OoT. I also think that other characters that seem like gods like majora and Fierce Diety are dieties like one step under God.

I have noticed that any many games music makes certain things happen and their are spiritual songs that warp l;ink. Maybe music is a big part of their faith.

 

[hsb39]

I like the existence of religion in Zelda. It gives a nice mythical backstory to the whole thing. I think that it's good also that (well I think), that it doesn't go into the issues of atheism and things like that, it really should try to not be offensive, as in this world, you already know the answer to what is true.

I like how in depth it is with its religion, they give you the full creation story at the start of OoT, the sages are shown throughout many games. This gives it a chance to reflect things from many different religions whilst not saying "we support x". Polytheism is clearly shown, yet at the same time, it seems as though the triforce has some reflection of the trinity (but it is three different godesses, but its not supposed to be a complete copy), it shows evil (and I've always liked that Power gets the evil guy). You also have a sort of holy centre (Hyrule), and there were wars over religious power (that's just history, not meaning to offend anyone). There are also the places of worship, of course filled with monsters, you could get a metaphor out of that, but there's a good chance its just to make the game a game and not just a reflection of religions. That would also be why they don't make any Gods all powerful, wouldn't make for that great of a game would it?

I could probably go on, but most of its been mentioned, short version: Zelda has religious aspects, reflecting many religions, I like that, but I don't really think that they should be adressing issues of different styles of belief because it could turn into taking a side rather than simply having a nice thing in the game (mainly because we already know what is true in Hyrule).

 

[Shadsie]

I could see myself coverting to Hylian religion - seriously. That is, if I found myself in Hyrule (never here in our supposedly real world, that strikes me as silly). Of course, upon arriving in Hyrule, I might see it as something of a "My god revealinig himself in a different way for a different world" ala the Aslan-based religion present in Narnia, but still...

Miracles and destiny are very blatant in the Zelda games, are they not? The high Goddesses are fairly distant, but there are more minor(?) physical gods that live among the people (Jabu Jabu, Valoo, Cyclos, Zephros...) the chosen Sages, sacred relics... I see skepticism in that world be difficult. (But if I were making the games, I'd still play with it, just for fun). I played with it a bit in one of my fanfics.

 

[Anthony]

I love the fact that Religion is included in the Zelda series, it would be great if actual real world Religions were like this.
Unlike real world religions, the Gods in Zelda have physical embodiments and several sub-gods.(Cyclos, Valoo and Jabu Jabu as Shadsie previously stated).

Even at the Beginning of OoT, it gives a full backstory to the creation of Hyrule, and the sages and different dieties are protrayed in several games.

But overall, I don't really mind that religion is included in Zelda games, it is fictional anyway, so I don't see how it can affect real world problems with religion. And I am no way objecting to the fact that Nintendo included what the peoples of Hyrule belive in.

 

[hsb39]

Miracles and destiny are very blatant in the Zelda games, are they not? The high Goddesses are fairly distant, but there are more minor(?) physical gods that live among the people (Jabu Jabu, Valoo, Cyclos, Zephros...) the chosen Sages, sacred relics... I see skepticism in that world be difficult. (But if I were making the games, I'd still play with it, just for fun). I played with it a bit in one of my fanfics.

I can see miracles, but not sure about destiny, it is largely based around being able to choose what you do, that was the premise of the first game after all.

What I would love to see in skepticism would be someone who doubts *everything*, like the Gods, any kind of existence (make a Hume reference even ), but because of that he does see some things more clearly (making him more than some kind of comic relief), like being able to see through masks...