Do You Think That LoZ and AoL Could Fit on the AT?

[Big Octo]

1. I'm positive that the Spirit Tracks cannot disappear in that matter. They're more spiritual (as implied by the name) than physical, as is the Tower of Spirits. The Gods watching over them simply wouldn't let them be desrtoyed.

2. That argument is invalid. The geography of Hyrule is changes for every game, so, even in consecutive sequels, the geography will always be different. Though that was my argumant, New Hyrule's geography is far different from any other Hyrule. Death Mountain, I'll tell you, is an important geographic feature unique to Old Hyrule only. It's always served a common purpose in each game. Also, your stand about the names of the towns in AoL doesn't hold much weight, because what was stopping those Sages from awakening later?

3. Ganon did die. Period. There is little, if any, evidence supporting a survival of one form or another. Once Ganon lost the Triforce of Power at the end of WW, he essentially went insane. His attack on Link on Zelda was a last-ditch effort to end their future, which was the King's wish. I'm sure a part of him new that he couldn't win, but there was nothing else he could do; the Triforce, his source of mortality, is gone, and he wouldn't go very far escaping with out it. Once Link defeated Ganon, there was nothing keeping him alive, this is part of the reason he turns to stone. Even if the Master Sword was removed from his head, he'd still be dead. So the only solution for him to return is resurrection.

 

[kaimason1]

1. OK, but with the whole migration thing it becomes invalid anyway.

2. I don't think the sages would have awoken in those forms, where they had the same names. They easily could have awoken, but not with the names which cause the naming. As for Death Mountain, what makes it so special that another mountain couldn't have been named Death in LoZ and AoL?

3. If he never fully escaped the Sacred Realm, in WW the only dead part of him would be his escaped form. The other part of him left in the Sacred Realm might have remained weak and dormant for thousands of years, but if he still had a small part, the sacred realm could have easily nursed him back to health after a couple hundred years.

 

[Satsy]

2: So the sages were a part of Old Hyrule, and their names were a throw-back by the developers to AoL. Considering how much of old Hyrule was lost until a new Zelda was awoken (WW) why would towns in New Hyrule take their names? And since there are already established towns in New Hyrule even by this point, why would these towns suddenly change names for reasons no longer, if ever, relevant to them?

3: Do you have any evidence Ganon was not entirely outside of the Sacred Realm? Bear in mind the King of Red Lions referred to him as Ganon up until the point he gets to see him, human, and reverts to calling him Ganondorf. That says to me that he was in his demon form when he escaped (most commonly known as Ganon) so the beast form was not left behind.

 

[Deniro]

heres some more fuel for it not taking place in new hyrule: when link got the triforce of courage in Aol, it's the first time it's used since the first princess Zelda, and the ToC was used by Link in Oot and WW, and they both had a princess Zelda in them, so if Aol is after spirit tracks, it's definetely not the first time it's used since the first princess Zelda, heck, the north castle where the first princess zelda was sleeping must have been in Hyrule, since she's the first princess named Zelda, EVER.

 

[Locke]

3: Do you have any evidence Ganon was not entirely outside of the Sacred Realm? Bear in mind the King of Red Lions referred to him as Ganon up until the point he gets to see him, human, and reverts to calling him Ganondorf. That says to me that he was in his demon form when he escaped (most commonly known as Ganon) so the beast form was not left behind.

Evidence points toward Ganon being completely freed from the flood seal. The Master Sword was the last key keeping his mazoku (NoA: "magic") sealed. We see that he completely escaped the Sages' seal in the backstory before that, so he can't be lingering there.

heres some more fuel for it not taking place in new hyrule: when link got the triforce of courage in Aol, it's the first time it's used since the first princess Zelda, and the ToC was used by Link in Oot and WW, and they both had a princess Zelda in them, so if Aol is after spirit tracks, it's definetely not the first time it's used since the first princess Zelda, heck, the north castle where the first princess zelda was sleeping must have been in Hyrule, since she's the first princess named Zelda, EVER.

By that logic, AoL must take place before OoT, which contradicts OoT's and LttP's backstories. (or, stretching it, between OoT and WW/TP, contradicting the latter's backstories.)

 

[JuicieJ]

Nothing actually says that those are the only entrances; Additionally, there was one at Death Mountain, which easily could have become Dragon Roost Island in Wind Waker; thus, Ganon could return, were he to survive.

First off, you're using negative evidence, which is never actual evidence. For something to be possible, it has to be backed up by solid evidence. Otherwise it really can't be credited at all. Second, you do realize that he's at the bottom of the sea, right? (And that he's also dead.) That means he's not getting up to Dragon Roost Island (and that he wouldn't be in the Sacred Realm.) This goes along with Ganon not being a separate entity.

Also, Ganon is extremely powerful by this point. What is to say he hasn't come out as an apparition, a more ghostly form, in Wind Waker? He doesn't become his pig form, which we saw as his most powerful form from OoT.

Again, because Ganondorf is Ganon. They are the same being. Just like Wolf Link or Bunny Link or Midna with the complete Fused Shadow on. Same being, just transformed.

Instead, he uses puppets.

He was testing Link's skills with Puppet Ganon. He wanted to see if Link truly had the strength of the Hero of Time before he faced him. That had nothing to do with not being able to transform into Ganon.

 

[kaimason1]

As for the towns, it's either they were named through... I can't think of the term, but the sort of memory which is so strong it becomes almost as if genetic, though subconscious, which would explain the slight changes, or they were named as they are through pure gigantic coincidence.

As for Ganon's escape, it is always possible that he fully escaped. However, I think the removal of the Master Sword, instead of fully releasing him, released the Triforce. The pattern which had to be formed to unlock the Master Sword room was the Triforce. Since he had already 'found' the Triforce in OoT and he was the one to (accidentally) initially separate it, he easily could have been always somewhat sealed in the Sacred Realm. In OoT he had not yet been fully sealed in the Sacred Realm, and so his full power could escape; he was only tied to it by the Triforce he possessed. I can't quite remember the ending to the Ganon fight in OoT, and I've only played OoT3D, so my memory could be faulty, but didn't Link stab the Master Sword into his head then as well? As I remember that didn't kill him, seeing as he was able to return for WW.

As for Dragon Roost Island, you can provide a simple scenario even in thought to prove something possible. Since an entrance to the Sacred Realm exists on Death Mountain / Dragon Roost Island, he could escape by that route. Also, if he was at any point in possession of the Magic Mirror, he could have escaped the Sacred Realm from ANYWHERE within it. His physical form being turned to stone means nothing if his spirit still exists in the most magical place in the universe, the Sacred Realm. I never argued Ganon =/= Ganondorf, instead I argued that he didn't have the power to take his most powerful form in WW. He could not fully escape. I understand the puppets were a test, but if his Gerudo form was the most power he could muster, he wasn't all there.

 

[Satsy]

As for the towns, it's either they were named through... I can't think of the term, but the sort of memory which is so strong it becomes almost as if genetic, though subconscious, which would explain the slight changes, or they were named as they are through pure gigantic coincidence.

This doesn't actually explain anything. As I said the towns existing in New Hyrule already have names. None of these names, near as I can recall, resembled, took from, nor had anything to do with the AoL town names, or the Sages of Old Hyrule. Why would the town names change after the fact? Genetic memory or coincidence would be great if they had come before. But AoL can't come before ST with the vast changes it would have to incur.

As for Ganon's escape, it is always possible that he fully escaped. However, I think the removal of the Master Sword, instead of fully releasing him, released the Triforce. The pattern which had to be formed to unlock the Master Sword room was the Triforce. Since he had already 'found' the Triforce in OoT and he was the one to (accidentally) initially separate it, he easily could have been always somewhat sealed in the Sacred Realm. In OoT he had not yet been fully sealed in the Sacred Realm, and so his full power could escape; he was only tied to it by the Triforce he possessed. I can't quite remember the ending to the Ganon fight in OoT, and I've only played OoT3D, so my memory could be faulty, but didn't Link stab the Master Sword into his head then as well? As I remember that didn't kill him, seeing as he was able to return for WW.

We already know where the Triforce was in WW, though. Up until the lead-up to the final battle two pieces of the Triforce are held by bearers (Ganondorf being one, and Zelda IIRC being the other), and the third piece is shattered across the ocean. So the removal of the Master Sword could do nothing more than remove the seal, which would mean Ganondorf would have been all-free in time for the Master Sword to be driven through his skull.

As for Dragon Roost Island, you can provide a simple scenario even in thought to prove something possible. Since an entrance to the Sacred Realm exists on Death Mountain / Dragon Roost Island, he could escape by that route. Also, if he was at any point in possession of the Magic Mirror, he could have escaped the Sacred Realm from ANYWHERE within it. His physical form being turned to stone means nothing if his spirit still exists in the most magical place in the universe, the Sacred Realm. I never argued Ganon =/= Ganondorf, instead I argued that he didn't have the power to take his most powerful form in WW. He could not fully escape. I understand the puppets were a test, but if his Gerudo form was the most power he could muster, he wasn't all there.

Speculation, I'm afraid, isn't evidence. Makes great fiction, and its a story I'd love to hear. But the mirror holds no relevance since it is not in WW or OoT, thus nobody can really be in possession of it. And in LttP, Link is the one in possession of the mirror, and since that Link isn't related to the WW Link and Ganon is either dead or sealed again after that game, the mirror is entirely a moot point. Also, depending on the state of the seal, there is not always a link to the Sacred Realm from Death Mountain. After OoT there was no link to the Sacred Realm. In LoZ/AoL there is no link to the Sacred Realm. In WW there are no links to the Sacred Realm. The only reason there were so many cracks in the seal to the Sacred Realm in LttP was because its state of shattering was well underway and the barrier was flimsy by the time you're collecting stones. This could well have been made worse by Ganon at that stage being in complete possession of the entire Triforce.

So I again ask if you can provide evidence to back the idea that Ganon(dorf) wasn't all out of the Sacred Realm, considering how much hard evidence goes against the prospect.

 

[Caleb, Of Asui]

On principle, I generally find it very difficult to place any of the 2D titles on the Adult Timeline. Or, in the very least, it's very difficult to place any of them after Spirit Tracks due to the whole infrastructure with the train tracks and whatnot. I don't expect that's about to vanish. Additionally, considering the fact that the Adult Timeline buries the original Hyrule under the sea (typing that made me thing The Little Mermaid, haha) and brings us to a new Hyrule lacking any reasonable affiliation to Ganon or the Triforce, it's hard to say anything where either of those plays a pivotal role fits over there.

I was surprised a bit clicking onto the topic and seeing your assertion that perhaps they go between Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks. Interesting, perhaps, but it still doesn't work. Initially the principle is that the original 2D games up to The Minish Cap cannot come after Spirit Tracks, but still that applies somewhat in reverse due to the new Hyrule being founded between Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks, and you'd be hard-pressed to prove The Legend of Zelda tells something about the founding of the new Hyrule.

There is perhaps something to be considered with the names of the towns in The Adventure of Link. While at first glance they may seem to bind the game to the Adult Timeline, the only timeline where those characters became sages, it still works just about as well on the Child Timeline if not better. Consider that in Ocarina of Time when Link returns to his childhood he tells Zelda about his adventures as an adult (which we can assume with a fair amount of certainty). The story may very well become something of a wide-spread legend on the Child Timeline, although it never actually happens on that timeline. It's not unreasonable to presume the general public would be far more familiar with the names of the Adult Timeline's sages on the Child Timeline than on the Adult Timeline. One might presume that one of the details included in Link's story is the names of the sages, whereas on the Adult Timeline itself most everyone seems rather dubious that Saria, Darunia, or Naburoo becomes a sage after their disappearances. The fact that any of this characters is a sage would appear to be rather exclusive knowledge, making it unlikely that towns would be named after these unknown sages.

 

[Deniro]

By that logic, AoL must take place before OoT, which contradicts OoT's and LttP's backstories. (or, stretching it, between OoT and WW/TP, contradicting the latter's backstories.)

I'm also placing it before Oot, but I know it's controversial and I don't expect to be taken seriosly, the way I think about it, it's about the same time period as the interloper war etc, when the triforce was still not in the sacred realm, therefore, Oots backstory will still make sense.

 

[JuicieJ]

I'm also placing it before Oot, but I know it's controversial and I don't expect to be taken seriosly, the way I think about it, it's about the same time period as the interloper war etc, when the triforce was still not in the sacred realm, therefore, Oots backstory will still make sense.

The Triforce is split in AoL. And the Triforce was also very much in the Sacred Realm during the Interloper War. I don't know what made you think that.

 

[vioftw]

Or it could be a freaking different guy. And besides the towns are named after the sages in Zelda 2 ya.

 

[Luke's Wife]

LoZ and AoL are probably the hardest games to place on the timeline, simply because of their lack of a detailed storyline. Going back to the original question, no. I really doubt that LoZ and AoL can go there because as stated before, Ganondorf is dead. I've heard some speculation that they take place after Spirit Tracks (and before you get on me about the geography and the tracks themselves, hang on a second.) Some people (not necessarily me) think that some point during (or after) Spirit Tracks, the goddesses allowed the waters to recede, revealing old Hyrule once again. The people who lived in New Hyrule have no idea. The Old Hyrule is back, and eventually a few people made it back down there (which would explain the presence of Death Mountain etc. in LoZ) and, after being underwater for 200+ years, Hyrule would be something of a wasteland and devoid of people (much like in LoZ). then AoL would follow. As for the sages names of the villages, I don't really think that's a big deal. Maybe their names just went down in history or something. Let's just say it was INCEPTION. someone planted the idea in someone else's subconscious. Now, you'd think this theory would be fine, all except for the big obvious thing: Ganon, who is still alive and well and not underwater with a sword in his head. The only option would be resurrection, unless you believe Ganon's not dead and the end of WW (but with a sword in the head I think it's pretty obvious that he's dead).

 

[Deniro]

The Triforce is split in AoL. And the Triforce was also very much in the Sacred Realm during the Interloper War. I don't know what made you think that.

I'm extremely sorry for not replying earlier, but I kind of forgot about this thread, I just reread some of the stuff about the interloper war and you were right, the triforce is whitin the sacred realm during the interloper war, so i made kind of a new hypotesis, as we can tell by the massive knowledge the sages and The royal family has of the triforce, (even called the a secret of the royal family by princess zelda in oot) lead me to believe that the Triforce hasn't always been in the sacred realm, but was for some time used by the royal family, and then the sleeping Zelda Story occured and the Triforce of courage was hid away, then later, when the kingdom had split and the royal family family was much weaker, ganon (not the same as ganondorf in Oot, however, he might have been the one who originally had the FSA trident, but that's not relevant) stole the triforce of power and then Loz and Aol happened and the pretty weak royal family that now owned the whole decided that the triforce should be hidden in the sacred realm, but more protected, so therefore the Temple of time, elemtual stones, ocarina etc in Oot, then, later Hyrule was reunited right before Oot, and the rest of the timeline occured

 

[Luke's Wife]

so i made kind of a new hypotesis, as we can tell by the massive knowledge the sages and The royal family has of the triforce, (even called the a secret of the royal family by princess zelda in oot) lead me to believe that the Triforce hasn't always been in the sacred realm, but was for some time used by the royal family, and then the sleeping Zelda Story occured and the Triforce of courage was hid away, then later, when the kingdom had split and the royal family family was much weaker, ganon (not the same as ganondorf in Oot, however, he might have been the one who originally had the FSA trident, but that's not relevant) stole the triforce of power and then Loz and Aol happened and the pretty weak royal family that now owned the whole decided that the triforce should be hidden in the sacred realm, but more protected, so therefore the Temple of time, elemtual stones, ocarina etc in Oot, then, later Hyrule was reunited right before Oot, and the rest of the timeline occured

I never really thought about LoZ and AoL going before OoT. That's an interesting theory that might possibly work.

so perhaps a timeline like this:

.........................../ WW-PH-ST
SS- LoZ- AoL- OoT
..........................\ MM -TP- ALttP- LA- OoX (excluding the FS series because I'm not totally sure about where those ones go yet.)