Do We Need a Villain with Different Motive?

[DuelMark]

There's at least 2 villains I can think of, The Nightmare and Bellum, who have different motives than the rest, which is to rule the world. Should we get a villain with different motives? What motives do you wish for a villain to have?

My pick is revenge: Someone who wants the Royal Family dead for his own reasons, feeling a tragedy occurred that he feels is responsible, someone like Khan or Kratos. Someone like this could be "hijacked by Ganon".

 

[BlueSwordsman10]

I personally think they do, perhaps someone who wants to be the strongest being in exsitance, his journey going along with Links to gain power and use it to show the world what he can do.

 

[MW7]

Yes I think this is the single most important thing for the story in Zelda games to ever reach a point that they can be considered really good (Skyward Sword was well told but it's the same basic story all over again). This whole scenario reminds me of the tv series 24. I was a huge fan of the series and would read the forums on fox.com. By the middle of the sixth season the fans basically were repulsed by the same old "Jack Bauer prevents terrorists from destroying America plot." They literally did the most generic story possible in the first half of that season and a lot of people were mad because the fifth season was pretty much the greatest thing ever. They went back in the next two seasons with more personal stories- bringing back an old ally as a potential villian whose motives are never clear and protection of a VIP from a small cell of terrorists.

My point is that the stories in Zelda games are so generic and predictable that it's hard for a critic to look at them and judge them favorably. The Zelda series can still capture the imagination of young kids playing the games for the first time by having the same basic story everytime, but long-time fans notice that everything is always the same. Revenge is a great idea, and I have a weird idea. What if the game doesn't really have a villian? How about the game begins with the death of one of Link's family members such as a little sister, and he sets out to find the triforce to wish the family member back to life. Another idea I have is that they could do a game revolving around war. The plus in that scenario is that there are shades of grey because we may not know the full story behind the war until the end so we wouldn't assume Link is fighting "for good versus evil." Or how about a game in which Link's mentor sets him out on a quest only to find out in the middle of the game that Link's mentor is seeking the triforce for selfish reasons, and then Link must undo all the work he did in the second half of the game (this idea might go against your general idea though of having a different motive).

So yeah, I'd accept anything as long as it's not the generic Zelda plot. A different motive is what the series needs.

 

[TheWind]

I know that this might be controversial, but I would love to see a motive of genocide. Maybe a Gerudo, maybe not, but someone who wants to rid the world of Hylians.

 

[Dio]

I think someone would be good who actually wanted Ganon's power and was plotting to overthrow him and take the power for themselves. This would go horribly wrong of course and Ganon would battle and defeat this villain in an epic cutscene.

 

[Kikirini]

Different motives area always interesting. I know I certainly empathized with the villains in Link's Awakening. In a weird way, they could have been considered good guys; they just wanted themselves and the island to continue existing.

Cool motives like that need to happen, man.

 

[Draymorath]

I know that this might be controversial, but I would love to see a motive of genocide. Maybe a Gerudo, maybe not, but someone who wants to rid the world of Hylians.

Wow, this is such an amazingly good idea. I mean, it still would stick with the game having a final boss.

Anyway, other than this great idea, I can't really think of any good motives for a Zelda villain to have. I mean, other than lust for power (like Ganondorf) or just being some psychopath who wants to watch the world burn (like Majora), there isn't really much else that would fit. It couldn't be greed, what kind of legendary, all-powerful being would just use their abilities to obtain wealth? Besides, you can kinda just find money lying around in the grass...

 

[DuelMark]

Another option could be lust, but not for power, but for a girl. It may as well be Zelda. Yes I know, a bad guy wanting a princess for his bride has been done to death but its a trope you don't see often here unless you count Zant's minor crush on Midna.
In fact, I actually liked that when Vaati said he wanted Zelda for his bride in Four Swords, the bad guy wanting the princess for more than just her power. The problem was that his later appearances, especially his origin in The Minish Cap, this is pretty much absent, causing a plothole for me that I scratch my head on. While Vaati has his own method for trying to take over the world, I also think he should have remain fixated on Zelda as opposed to Nintendo making him a younger and less violent Ganon.
I can see a villain working for Ganon turning against his master because he wants Zelda for a puppet bride. Something like Valter from Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones.

 

[Tiranofarl]

Well, it's pretty hard to think of a Zelda villain who doesn't have the old reason of wanting do rule the world. However, the genocide idea is pretty nice. And more, I think that maybe would work if we had two villains instead of one. That way, they could want different things and would fight in some point.

 

[MW7]

Another option could be lust, but not for power, but for a girl. It may as well be Zelda. Yes I know, a bad guy wanting a princess for his bride has been done to death but its a trope you don't see often here unless you count Zant's minor crush on Midna.
In fact, I actually liked that when Vaati said he wanted Zelda for his bride in Four Swords, the bad guy wanting the princess for more than just her power. The problem was that his later appearances, especially his origin in The Minish Cap, this is pretty much absent, causing a plothole for me that I scratch my head on. While Vaati has his own method for trying to take over the world, I also think he should have remain fixated on Zelda as opposed to Nintendo making him a younger and less violent Ganon.
I can see a villain working for Ganon turning against his master because he wants Zelda for a puppet bride. Something like Valter from Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones.

I like this option. They could give Link motivation by being in love with Zelda OR they could be brother and sister so Link wants to protect her.

 

[Draymorath]

Yes I know, a bad guy wanting a princess for his bride has been done to death but its a trope you don't see often here unless you count Zant's minor crush on Midna.

You mean the one that doesn't exist? Seriously, where did you get that from?...Oh I think I may know...Oh God...disturbing images...right after the third dungeon...*shudder*...Anyway, if that's what you're talking about, that's not what you think it is...but it was still disturbing....Marshmallow mouth, eew. :sick:

Anyway, I've got an idea! What if the main villain was Dark Link, and he wants to kill Link because he is like the good version of him! =D

A.K.A., Even though Ganondorf is dead, Dark Link is continuing to carry out his purpose. No, I'm not talking about Shadow Link in Zelda 2. That's completely different.

 

[Ventus]

I can see a villain working for Ganon turning against his master because he wants Zelda for a puppet bride. Something like Valter from Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones.

I much agree, especially with the bolded part. Speaking of FE8, many of the villains (Caellach, Glen, Selena, ORSON ESPECIALLY, etc) had different motives than that of Lyon's father or Formotiis. Caellach in my opinion didn't want raw power, he wanted to be on top. Glen, he was just following what the Grado empire asked of him because he felt he owed something to Duessel...but then Valter killed him. Selena was the empire's guard dog much like Impa is to Zelda (SS); could've sworn when she was fighting Ephraim's army that she said something along the lines of "I'll die for Grado". Orson...he was demented. His wife (Monica) died. Lyon brought back a homunculus which made Orson pretty much insane.

Back on topic, the Zelda series definitely needs different motive-driven villains. I don't want a "imza ruel teh warudo!1omn1". That's overused and abused. We've seen it for pretty much the entire series. I don't want a "imza pawn!" because we've seen THAT for a good deal of the series. A love driven villain would be much better, if pulled off correctly. I wouldn't like a "lust for Zelda", because that forces Zelda to become a plot device if she isn't one by default [not that any of her appearances HAVEN'T been plot device rendered]. Another main character should be chosen IMO, with Zelda finally getting a lead on combat rather than 'omg link hepl meh im in another castle'.

These types of villains IMO could appear, for the main villain anyway:

• Jealous villain (a la Ganondorf's facade in TWW) – he supposedly coveted Hyrule's ability to nourish life whereas his homeland was incredibly harsh. That worked very well, the thing that killed it was that Ganon was joking around so as to get some sympathy. I could compare this to the facades that Xemnas from Kingdom Hearts II plays off.
• Love driven – explained in above posts
• Demented villain – Majora best explains this. I don't think it wanted power, but was just insane. I mean, it technicalyl already HAD power anyway.

 

[SinkingBadges]

Hmm... I must be one of the few that never expected any more from the villains. I do admit that the motives are rather clichéd most of the time in Zelda games, but I'm starting to question wether that ever mattered in the first place, you know? It's pretty well known that Zelda is supposed to have a somewhat conservative air in its story, like a fairytale. I know that might not be a good excuse for how lacking they are sometimes, and they border on shallow if their interests don't really go beyond obatining a power to rule the world. Majora was an interesting twist, since it was mainly a sadistic maniac whose goal was making everyone suffer indiscriminately.

I also thought Ganondorf had interesting motives in Wind Waker, where there was clearly a lot of personal gain involved. That world he was looking to control meant more to him than just "Me-land", like he was winning a life-long battle against the odds. As if his dialogue before the final battle didn't make it clear enough... (wow, I just noticed I'm bringing this one up a lot)

My country lay within a vast desert.

When the sun rose into the sky, a burning wind punished my lands, searing the world. And when the moon climbed into the dark of night, a frigid gale pierced our homes.

No matter when it came, the wind carried the same thing... Death.

But the winds that blew across the green fields of Hyrule brought something other than suffering and ruin.

I coveted that wind, I suppose.

I notice I've been bringng this one up a little more than often lately, but that's because I really think this part made Ganondorf as a villain and a character for me. My point is, I don't really think the villain needs a complex, or even deep motive. I've always thought that his goal has to mean something to him, and that devotion has to be clear and convincing. I've never thought villains were too different to heroes in that sense, they all look for something and follow it with utter passion. I think that would lead to Link himself having a strong motivation in many ways. I think they both need one to be well developed.

You could say that I'm easy to impress, but I never really thought that kind of villains who just want to rule the world were really bad. I might just be the kind of person that the classic approach was made for, after all. But I still stand that they have to have a motivation as strong to get their goal as Link has one to stop them. I guess it's that clash between sides that makes the apparently simple dicothomy of good and evil these stories seem to present all the time.

[/rant]

I know that this might be controversial, but I would love to see a motive of genocide. Maybe a Gerudo, maybe not, but someone who wants to rid the world of Hylians.

With all that said, it would be interesting to have one with a darker motivation like genocide. I'm not sure if it would be that controversial since implications wouldn't have to be that direct. In fact, I've heard more than one person who thinks that the citizens in the Market in Ocarina of Time are the re-deads you find when you go there as an adult. I have my doubts about that, but I guess it's safe to assume that they were alive at some point.

If you mean a straight out genocide, that would be... interesting to see. I can actually see Ganondorf pulling that off, if his jealousy of Hyrule's fortune was really that strong, I bet he would've done do anything against the people in it if the writing had called for it instead of him just wanting the land. Motivations like that can go a long way in the villain's actions depending on how they are used.

 

[DuelMark]

A love driven villain would be much better, if pulled off correctly. I wouldn't like a "lust for Zelda", because that forces Zelda to become a plot device if she isn't one by default [not that any of her appearances HAVEN'T been plot device rendered].
[/LIST]

Actually, I think lust is the best way a villain would attempt to make Zelda his lover. Maybe its because when I think of the villain wanting someone to be their wife/lover/etc it's usually for less romantic reasons. If he was genuinely in love with her, it would work if they were childhood friends but she's clearly more interested in Link, making him, say, work for Ganon solely to remove anything keeping him from her.

Also, as for the part about being a pawn of Ganon, I think that can still work if it plays a part of that different motives thing. For example, the vengeful villain I suggested. He would learn he's being used but instead of being grateful to Ganon or be proud to serve him like Zant or Onox, he'd be full blown against the idea and attack Ganondorf upon the sight of him.

 

[Draymorath]

Hmm... I must be one of the few that never expected any more from the villains. I do admit that the motives are rather clichéd most of the time in Zelda games, but I'm starting to question wether that ever mattered in the first place, you know? It's pretty well known that Zelda is supposed to have a somewhat conservative air in its story, like a fairytale. I know that might not be a good excuse for how lacking they are sometimes, and they border on shallow if their interests don't really go beyond obatining a power to rule the world. Majora was an interesting twist, since it was mainly a sadistic maniac whose goal was making everyone suffer indiscriminately.

I also thought Ganondorf had interesting motives in Wind Waker, where there was clearly a lot of personal gain involved. That world he was looking to control meant more to him than just "Me-land", like he was winning a life-long battle against the odds. As if his dialogue before the final battle didn't make it clear enough... (wow, I just noticed I'm bringing this one up a lot)



I notice I've been bringng this one up a little more than often lately, but that's because I really think this part made Ganondorf as a villain and a character for me. My point is, I don't really think the villain needs a complex, or even deep motive. I've always thought that his goal has to mean something to him, and that devotion has to be clear and convincing. I've never thought villains were too different to heroes in that sense, they all look for something and follow it with utter passion. I think that would lead to Link himself having a strong motivation in many ways. I think they both need one to be well developed.

You could say that I'm easy to impress, but I never really thought that kind of villains who just want to rule the world were really bad. I might just be the kind of person that the classic approach was made for, after all. But I still stand that they have to have a motivation as strong to get their goal as Link has one to stop them. I guess it's that clash between sides that makes the apparently simple dicothomy of good and evil these stories seem to present all the time.

[/rant]



With all that said, it would be interesting to have one with a darker motivation like genocide. I'm not sure if it would be that controversial since implications wouldn't have to be that direct. In fact, I've heard more than one person who thinks that the citizens in the Market in Ocarina of Time are the re-deads you find when you go there as an adult. I have my doubts about that, but I guess it's safe to assume that they were alive at some point.

If you mean a straight out genocide, that would be... interesting to see. I can actually see Ganondorf pulling that off, if his jealousy of Hyrule's fortune was really that strong, I bet he would've done do anything against the people in it if the writing had called for it instead of him just wanting the land. Motivations like that can go a long way in the villain's actions depending on how they are used.

Oh my God, this post is awesome in every way imaginable. I wish I could post something this good. :puppy: :clap: