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Aonuma: OoT was restricting, the BotW format will continue

Mikey the Moblin

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The entire point of Zelda 1 was exploring the unknown and figuring out how to progress on your own.
the game literally came packaged with an overworld map

the "return to roots" argument is provably false, I wish people would stop making it

the new direction zelda is taking is rooted purely in current gaming appetites and what is most profitable
 

VikzeLink

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the new direction zelda is taking is rooted purely in current gaming appetites and what is most profitable
I'd like to add "the developers seem to have fun working on it" to that list too

Some people need change in their work environment to enjoy it, and I doubt the "BotW formula" is here to stay forever. For a while, sure, but not forever
 

Mikey the Moblin

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I'd like to add "the developers seem to have fun working on it" to that list too

Some people need change in their work environment to enjoy it, and I doubt the "BotW formula" is here to stay forever. For a while, sure, but not forever
actually, I noticed a TON of new names in the credits
on that note it seems like the zelda team is not constantly working to meet deadlines like most other IPs are, perhaps a luxury of the success of botw and now tears
people just coming in and working on what they want to
I didn't get in the habit of watching credits until well after I had already beaten botw so I don't know if the project leaders are mostly the same or not, but I guess the series got handed off to a completely new team post ALBW
 

Turo602

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the game literally came packaged with an overworld map
That's why it was such an easy and straightforward game right? The map had all the answers...

the "return to roots" argument is provably false, I wish people would stop making it
Show me proof.

the new direction zelda is taking is rooted purely in current gaming appetites and what is most profitable
And what exactly were previous games rooted in? Surely, the appetites of their respective times. But that doesn't mean they haven't been trying to push the envelope with each and every game. It just became more difficult to achieve when the rest of the industry is breaking new ground and they're still operating within the confines of outdated game design philosophies because they were guaranteed money makers, until they weren't.

This is why franchises evolve and it surely won't be the last time it goes through another major overhaul. But to consider Breath of the Wild some radical deviation from the very roots of the franchise because it isn't some 1 to 1 recreation of old school design doesn't negate the fundamental concepts and ideas it has in common with the rest of the series that unmistakably make it Zelda.
 

Mikey the Moblin

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Show me proof.
multiple people have already gone over the examples of linearity and lock and key design in zelda 1, you ignoring it does not mean it isn't there

zelda 1 has the reputation it does now because the map is rather hard to find and most people don't know you're meant to play with it
 

Turo602

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multiple people have already gone over the examples of linearity and lock and key design in zelda 1, you ignoring it does not mean it isn't there

zelda 1 has the reputation it does now because the map is rather hard to find and most people don't know you're meant to play with it

That's not proof and those posts have no bearing on the points I've made that you've ignored. It's okay to admit you have no proof.

Zelda 1 has that reputation because it was designed that way. The map doesn't tell you what to do and where to find items and secrets.
 

Mikey the Moblin

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the dungeons in zelda 1 are literally numbered in order
you can do some of them out of order
specific key items are required for progression
you can argue that being able to beat the game without ever picking up the sword is more of an oversight than anything
the level design clearly leads players directly toward picking up the sword

hope this helps!
 

Turo602

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the dungeons in zelda 1 are literally numbered in order
you can do some of them out of order
specific key items are required for progression
you can argue that being able to beat the game without ever picking up the sword is more of an oversight than anything
the level design clearly leads players directly toward picking up the sword

hope this helps!
Still not really proving anything. But go off.
 

thePlinko

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The entire point of Zelda 1 was exploring the unknown and figuring out how to progress on your own.
No, the entire point was to figure out the correct way to progress through a clearly defined world.

It is an early example of a non-linear game and can be completed without ever touching the sword.
It is literally impossible to beat the game without the sword. You can get to Ganon, but he requires the sword to kill.

To say Breath of the Wild has nothing in common with this core concept that is the very foundation for the series has got to be some of the most disingenuous sh*t I've ever read to try to discredit BotW from being a "real" Zelda game.
BotW has plenty in common with the concept you claim to be the core of Zelda 1. The problem is that your “core concept” is a vague at best description that could be applied to literally any non-level based game ever. “Non-linearity” isnt a core concept. It’s a buzzword that’s thrown around by people who know nothing about even the most basic of game design philosophy as well as the higherups who want to market their games to the former.

Zelda 1 is a notoriously difficult and cryptic game and therefore, the series became more and more structured with obvious paths and solutions.
The difficulty and cryptic nature has literally nothing to do with structure. Zelda 1 still had plenty of moments that actively locked the player out, forcing them to find an item or figure out a puzzle to progress. This aspect is noticeable just by playing the game.

This formula proved to be a success and little by little, non-linear exploration and progression became less prevalent while other aspects were given more attention.
this implies that the formula was somehow not a part of Zelda 1 when in reality literally every single aspect of the formula started there. That’s not to say that there wasn’t an overall series shift but the fact that it still followed the same formula that Zelda 1 did while BotW doesn’t alone is enough to prove your entire rant wrong.

It wasn't until Breath of the Wild when they finally realized that they could do so much more now than they were able to then that could better realize the very idea of The Legend of Zelda without abiding to arbitrary conventions that have long stagnated the franchise.
News flash: video games are arbitrary. That’s kind of the entire point. If there aren’t arbitrary restrictions on the player, then it’s by definition not a game.

Furthermore, nothing about BotW’s deviation is something that couldn’t have been done in previous games. Item gating was and always has been the absolute focal point of Zelda as a series, and this is provable just by acknowledging the simple fact that it is always harder to implement something than it is to not implement it. If the ability to go anywhere you wanted from the start was always intended then they wouldn’t have forced you to get half of the items. It would have been easy to not include the raft, but they went out of their way to program it in because their entire vision required them to lock out the player. Literally nothing about adhering to this basic design concept is “stagnation,” it’s evolving a formula, something that literally every single series ever is supposed to strive to do.





It's why the overworld in Zelda games have been long criticized for being big empty spaces to make traversal from point a to point b feel more grand, like the Great Sea in Wind Waker and Hyrule Field in Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess. Kinda makes it clear why Skyward Sword went the direction it did with its dungeon-like overworld.
You mean like how BotWs overworld is constantly criticized for being a big empty space to make traversal from point a to point b feel more grand? Not that it matters because that has literally nothing to do with the shift in formula.

But a simple re-examination of one tiny aspect of the franchise could have easily remedied this problem and it's one of the better aspects introduced in Breath of the Wild, cooking. Why have hearts randomly drop from enemies and cut grass to replinish your health when you can add a whole new layer to the experience by foraging the land for ingredients and hunting animals so you can experiment with different recipes that grants various amounts of health and player buffs? Just like that, the overworld has become more interesting because it now serves a purpose to the player and it could just as easily be applied to past entries to make up for their shortcomings. But of course, that will be breaking a long established convention that matters so much for some reason.
Literally nobody is complaining that a crafting system doesn’t belong in Zelda. I mean for ****s sake, SS had one too. I tend to complain that crafting systems are rarely particularly well implemented, but that’s completely independent of me thinking that it doesn’t belong in Zelda.

People are complaining that core mechanics that have been the foundation of every single Zelda prior to BotW barring none have been removed and replaced with a radically different system of progression. Removing the strict gating mechanics that completely redefined gaming and replacing it with a half-assed stat system as the sole method of player progression is a distinct separation between BotW and the rest of the series.

Non-linear exploration, world interaction, and player ingenuity were all important concepts when The Legend of Zelda was being developed on NES and through the years, these elements have either disappeared, been dumb down, or remained stagnant while emphasis was placed on point a to point b exploration, lock and key progression, and item specific puzzle solutions. Yet somehow these games are considered "real" Zelda games while Breath of the Wild is not, despite taking a lot of these elements to new heights by simply re-examining and reapplying them.
Once again, everything that you listed are vague at best examples. “Player ingenuity” in the way you’re arguing especially is just blatantly wrong. There is a specific path to follow in Zelda 1, and it’s up to the player to figure that out. Any sort of player ingenuity in Zelda 1 existed on a macro scale alone, figuring out what the best path to take based on the restrictions was absolutely a defining characteristic of Zelda 1, and while the series did drop that off, BotW dropped off even more without even attempting to regain what was actually lost.
 
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I think if I had read this article weeks ago, or even immediately before TotK released, I would be very hesitant about what this means going forward. I was someone who enjoyed BotW's atmosphere but found it utterly lacking overall (weapons breaking, 4 "dungeons" that felt identical, boring shrines, empty world, the list could go on).

Now that I'm absolutely hooked on TotK, my trust has been won, and I look forward to what they'll do in the future. TotK fixed most of my issues from BotW and if they can continue progressing the sense of fun, freedom, and creative puzzle-solving, the "new formula" will be an absolute delight.

Granted, I would still love some old elements like more designed, formal dungeons to appear, and more unique weapons/tools, but I am very satisfied currently!
 

Kogasa

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I have a lot of problems with Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom, but I could ignore all the focus on pointless little chore shrines, long-winded paths from point a to point b, and stat-based progression if the game rewarded me with GOOD DUNGEONS. Give the main path some MEAT. Majora's Mask is my favorite game; I love sidequests and going off to explore and do random things, but only when I already love the core game.

TotK so far as been disappointing. LEAGUES better than BotW so far, the Lightning Temple has an actual theme and structure to it but I got to the boss in literally like 15 minutes. It is literally three rudimentary path blocks a three year old could solve, and then entering the main room where you solve maybe 5 more rudimentary problems and to activate switches and voila.

If this temple and the others were at least three times longer I would probably unironically love this game, but as it stands I'm left thinking of what could have been. Majora's Mask's dungeons are longer, come on...
 

Mikey the Moblin

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but I got to the boss in literally like 15 minutes
Search and destroy just isn't compelling gameplay for a dungeon crawler. It's something you should already be doing in a dungeon by happenstance and the open world aspect of these games is handicapping the ability to actually make an interesting puzzle
 
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As long as they make "traditional" 2D Zelda games, I am totally fine with all 3D Zeldas being more Wind Waker/BotW/TotK than OoT, TP or SS.
 

Turo602

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No, the entire point was to figure out the correct way to progress through a clearly defined world.

It is literally impossible to beat the game without the sword. You can get to Ganon, but he requires the sword to kill.

BotW has plenty in common with the concept you claim to be the core of Zelda 1. The problem is that your “core concept” is a vague at best description that could be applied to literally any non-level based game ever. “Non-linearity” isnt a core concept. It’s a buzzword that’s thrown around by people who know nothing about even the most basic of game design philosophy as well as the higherups who want to market their games to the former.

Because "progressing through a clearly defined world" isn't the most vague and generic description that can be applied to pretty much any video game ever... That doesn't tell me anything about the game in question. Are you talking about Mario? Metroid? Zelda?

Exploration is literally at the core of the experience and separates it from a game like Super Mario Bros. that has one clearly defined path to the end of the level whereas Zelda does not. There is no "correct" way and that's literally the point. The game isn't guiding you to any specific destination and telling you where to go next.

The difficulty and cryptic nature has literally nothing to do with structure. Zelda 1 still had plenty of moments that actively locked the player out, forcing them to find an item or figure out a puzzle to progress. This aspect is noticeable just by playing the game.

It has everything to do with it. People get lost, don't know where to go, how to progress and therefore later installments became more structured with obvious solutions. Also, having specific blocks in progression doesn't negate its non-linear design and gameplay, otherwise you couldn't do dungeons or obtain items out of order and attempt a 3 heart or swordless run. That's called player freedom and whether you like it or not, it's a defining characteristic of The Legend of Zelda.

this implies that the formula was somehow not a part of Zelda 1 when in reality literally every single aspect of the formula started there. That’s not to say that there wasn’t an overall series shift but the fact that it still followed the same formula that Zelda 1 did while BotW doesn’t alone is enough to prove your entire rant wrong.

It doesn't at all if you actually read what I wrote and didn't separate my paragraphs into 2 different thoughts just to project more anti-BotW rhetoric.

As a direct result of The Legend of Zelda's difficulty, later games became more structured and easier to progress through, therefore making the series more accessible. In what way does this imply that aspects of Zelda 1 weren't carried over to future installments or even Breath of the Wild?

News flash: video games are arbitrary. That’s kind of the entire point. If there aren’t arbitrary restrictions on the player, then it’s by definition not a game.

News flash: WTF does this have to do with anything?

Furthermore, nothing about BotW’s deviation is something that couldn’t have been done in previous games. Item gating was and always has been the absolute focal point of Zelda as a series, and this is provable just by acknowledging the simple fact that it is always harder to implement something than it is to not implement it. If the ability to go anywhere you wanted from the start was always intended then they wouldn’t have forced you to get half of the items. It would have been easy to not include the raft, but they went out of their way to program it in because their entire vision required them to lock out the player. Literally nothing about adhering to this basic design concept is “stagnation,” it’s evolving a formula, something that literally every single series ever is supposed to strive to do.

The fact that Breath of the Wild's ideas can be traced back to prior games yet feel like such a deviation for how it repurposes those concepts is the definition of evolution. Not doing the same thing over and over again.

You mean like how BotWs overworld is constantly criticized for being a big empty space to make traversal from point a to point b feel more grand? Not that it matters because that has literally nothing to do with the shift in formula.

Literally nobody is complaining that a crafting system doesn’t belong in Zelda. I mean for ****s sake, SS had one too. I tend to complain that crafting systems are rarely particularly well implemented, but that’s completely independent of me thinking that it doesn’t belong in Zelda.

When did I say people were complaining about crafting? Again, you completely miss the point that’s being made because you'd rather attack Breath of the Wild any chance you can than understand why things are being said. I give an example of a series convention that was reworked into something completely brand new and could have benefited the series earlier had they not just been doing the same thing and your response is that Breath of the Wild has an empty world too and that crafting isn't the issue people have?

People are complaining that core mechanics that have been the foundation of every single Zelda prior to BotW barring none have been removed and replaced with a radically different system of progression. Removing the strict gating mechanics that completely redefined gaming and replacing it with a half-assed stat system as the sole method of player progression is a distinct separation between BotW and the rest of the series.

You don't need to tell me what people don't like about Breath of the Wild or how it's different from past entries. I've already acknowledged that. But to suggest Breath of the Wild isn't a real Zelda game just because it evolved those concepts is flat out ignorant.

Once again, everything that you listed are vague at best examples. “Player ingenuity” in the way you’re arguing especially is just blatantly wrong. There is a specific path to follow in Zelda 1, and it’s up to the player to figure that out. Any sort of player ingenuity in Zelda 1 existed on a macro scale alone, figuring out what the best path to take based on the restrictions was absolutely a defining characteristic of Zelda 1, and while the series did drop that off, BotW dropped off even more without even attempting to regain what was actually lost.

Because concepts are vague and there is no one way to realize them like you seem to think. You talked about evolving the series yet are actively against it because you want to put Zelda in this restrictive box, so much that you blatantly misrepresent the point of the original Zelda game and think you've made some sort of revelation over lock and key design, which I've never argued wasn't part of its identity. All you've done is demonstrate that you don't understand game design since you're so adamant that Zelda 1 has only one path because what, the dungeons are numbered and you need a raft? Please...
 

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