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General Zelda A Lot of Talk About Dark and Serious and Mature...

When you think of a darker/more serious/more mature zelda, you think of:

  • More violence/blood

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • More romance/kissing

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Characters dying and staying dead

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • More sense of danger

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0

Dragoncat

Twilit wildcat: Aerofelis
So I decided to make this poll to see what we all mean when we talk about a darker/more serious/more mature zelda game. Right now, I really don't know what my answers would be...so I'll let everyone discuss it before I make a decision.

First 3 options are self explanatory, but for "more sense of danger", I mean the opposite of "yay adventure", where Link and the other characters know and acknowledge the fact that if they stand up to the villain, they might not live to tell about it. So pretty much a combination of options 1 and 3.
 
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DarkestLink

Darkest of all Dark Links
Joined
Oct 28, 2012
Characters dying...but just dying isn't enough. I need to feel an impact from the death. In MM they failed to do this with Mikau and it felt more like comic relief, although they were pretty close with Darmani...but in the end though, we don't get an impact. We don't know these characters and we don't get a response from the ones that do.
 

ihateghirahim

The Fierce Deity
Joined
Jan 16, 2013
Location
Inside the Moon
I want more mature themes all across the board. I've grown weary of the childish themes repeating over and over. Zelda is great, but a turn in a new direction, while respecting tradition, is desperately required. We really need to step up the maturity factor. Now I don't want an M-rated Zelda game, but we really need something darker and more mature to make the franchise feel new and relevant.
 

Doc

BoDoc Horseman
Joined
Nov 24, 2012
Gender
Male
I think that killing off characters is the way to go. When I think of this, I think of the scene in Twilight Princess when Zelda saves Midna's life. I believed Zelda was dead and loved that idea ((the concept of killing one of the most major character's, not Zelda herself)). Later, I was disappointed ((again, the concept)) when she survived. Even later in TP when they make you believe Midna is dead, would have loved it had they done some follow-through, although she did do some major stuff...
 

Garo

Boy Wonder
Joined
Jun 22, 2011
Location
Behind you
I do not believe this conflation of "dark" and "mature" should go on any longer. The most mature game I've ever played is Papo & Yo, not because it's dark or serious - quite the opposite, it's a very light and whimsical experience - but because it deals with some heavy thematic concerns. The game opens with the quote "To my mother and sister, with whom I survived the monster in my father." It's a tone setting opening to the game, even if what follows is tremendously dissonant: the magical realist trappings of the game are simply a way of dealing with the very real and very uncomfortable subject of physical child abuse. I also object to the concept that dealing with death in a meaningful way is somehow more mature. Children are often far more capable of coping with and understanding death than they are given credit for, and I would hardly call a story that features a character death mature on that criterion alone.

Ultimately, what I'm saying is that I don't think any of these things signify maturity in a game. Rather, at times I think it signifies quite the opposite. If one has the goal of maturity in mind, and they go any of these directions, I think that signifies a certain immaturity of the game. A mature game will deal with its subject matter and its themes in a straight-faced fashion: no sugar-coating, no dumbing-down, no snickering, no tongue in cheek. Straight and true.
 

Justac00lguy

BooBoo
Joined
Jul 1, 2012
Gender
Shewhale
I chose Characters dying and staying dead and More sense of danger...

I feel the top two aren't necessarily needed to create a so called "darker" or a more "realistic" game, in my opinion these type of mature aspects aren't needed, however this is just my view. The two that I chose I would really like to see more of, I have always been interested in the idea of a darker Zelda game and I think that shows as my two favourite installments are Twilight Princess and Majora's Mask .

Both of these games featured aspects of the options I chose; MM had multiple characters dying or experiencing tragic events, however its how they go about the death that made it more of a realistic impact. The likes of Darmani and Makau seemed to very saddened upon their death and it seems that they were heavily regarded among their race making the death a more significant death. The song of healing combined with the cut scene really made it hit home that a significant "death" was occurring. TP also had this to an extent, the death of Princess Rutela was quite an emotional scene just because you felt and saw the impact it had on her son, Prince Ralis. I think this kind of thing is important when creating a meaningful and realistic death, it needs to feel like a tragic event and a significant loss.

Both games also had this sense of danger, more so with MM but I feel TP also had these themes. In TP we had this danger of mysterious and seemingly unstoppable villain named Zant. Now one thing I thought TP excelled in for the first half of the game was this sense of danger as not only was Zant one of the "fearful" villains but the looming Twilight and the atmosphere within really gave this fear aspect. When you cleared the Twilight there was still the task of more Twilight to he cleared which made evil still very much present within the game, during the second half of the game it was less emphasised but the first half was great. MM definitely had this idea of danger and this was very much to due to the aspect of time. The moon itself was quite fearful and the sheer panic that it created and effects on the world made it feel like a real threat. The idea of time came into play as the threat was ever present throughout the whole game. We could save an area but reseting time made everything return to the beginning and what we had previously done was erased.

Now essentially all that needs to be done achieve a darker game is to make outcomes more realistic. Zelda could be a dark game very easily if it wanted to, I mean the idea of the plot is quite dark in itself, it's just that Zelda puts a lighthearted twist on these events. Now wanting more deaths doesn't mean you're some crazy death enthusiast, it's just that death is a realistic outcome in the world, it happens every day and it's sad indeed. Now a game like Zelda could really create some tragic death scenes if it wanted to and I think this could go far to create a darker Zelda game. The idea of a constant evil is essential to any style of Zelda game in my opinion, it gives the player a motive to save the world, making that evil presence fearful is what could put a dark twist on a Zelda game in my opinion.

All in all I would like to see a more "realistic" Zelda game in terms of what I mentioned above but I'm fine with the current direction.
 
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Dragoncat

Twilit wildcat: Aerofelis
Very good points everyone, but I am especially intrigued by Garo's response. Yeah, I can see throwing a death or a make out scene in for no good reason would be bad...but let's assume Nintendo does it the right way.

That game Garo brought up DOES sound quite dark. People assume that just because something is brightly colored and cartoony, that it can be taken lightly/can't possibly have a dark story. And that assumption is wrong...
 

Ventus

Mad haters lmao
Joined
May 26, 2010
Location
Akkala
Gender
Hylian Champion
I picked all four options. It's not so much that they automatically make the game serious or whatever (symbolism is constantly used to make a light medium convey a 'darker' meaning), but that they're a healthy break from what we're accustomed to getting. It shouldn't be that we're dealing with white and black here, but Zelda is often light-hearted to convey light-heartedness and never anything else. I'd appreciate the opposite :I
 

Cfrock

Keep it strong
Joined
Mar 17, 2012
Location
Liverpool, England
Before I get into my reply I just want to highlight something Garo said which I completely agree with.

I do not believe this conflation of "dark" and "mature" should go on any longer.

'Dark' does not automatically mean 'mature' and vice versa.

Anyway, I voted for 'Other' because, again, agreeing with Garo, the other options do not automatically make something mature either. Death can be a tool to add maturity but the event of death itself is not what does that. The way other characters respond to and deal with death is where maturity would enter into it. Throwing in some deaths won't make a game mature unless they have meaning and can, as Garo pointed out, be seen as immature if they don't.

A wonderful example of this would be the novel Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows. J.K. Rowling totally mishandles the concept of death in that book. Lord Voldemort himself directly murders over ten people, many of which we never see or have never heard of, like Gregorovitch the wand-maker. Because we have no connection to these events we have no emotional engagement and so they are ultimately pointless. Furthermore, the fact that all Lord Voldemort actually does throughout the entire novel is kill people for no real reason devalues the threat of death, turning it into something the reader no longer fears but expects. There is one point in the novel when the author has to literally bring a character back from the dead just so that they can outright explain the significance of their death to the reader. It's very jarring and takes you out of what should have been a tense and dramatic moment. By just throwing death in for the sake of death, Rowling managed to make all of it ultimately worthless, because it doesn't do anything for either the plot or the characters.

It's like when DarkestLink mentions Mikau from Majora's Mask. We'd only just met the character and knew nothing about him, so when he died we weren't going to feel anything about it because there's no connection. He just dies because Link needs to get a Zora Mask, that's it. Compare that to the Deku Butler's son. Although he dies before the game even begins we get to see how it affects the Deku Butler and how he deals with it emotionally. When we see him crying in front of his son's corpse during the credits its a very bittersweet moment since everyone else in Termina is rejoicing how everything is better for them while the Butler has lost that which he cares about most. It's not much, I admit, but it's a more mature moment than the death of Mikau because it has some meaning and makes us feel an emotion.

Death could help make a Zelda game more mature, sure, but the point is death for death's sake won't do it. There has to be somthing more behind it, some significance to either plot or character development or just the player's emotional investment. We have to have a reason to care about death before death can add maturity to a game. The same can be said about romance. Throwing two characters together romantically doesn't mean anything if there's no engagement with the audience. I want to use the example of Alyx Vance and Gordon Freeman from Half-Life 2 for this point. From the moment Alyx meets Gordon until the end of Episode 2, Alyx has never once heard Gordon say a single word. Not once. He has never actually interacted with her in any way whatsoever except staring at her every now and then. The excuse of "But we have to imagine what Gordon is saying to her" doesn't hold up when the game itself openly acknowledges the fact that he does not speak to her ("Not much of a talker are you?"). She has no reason to feel anything close to love for this man who acts like a machine. He never speaks to her, he never gives any input on plans or activities, he never seems happy to see people and he goes off without hesitation whenever he is ordered to go somewhere and kill a bunch of people. In the reality of the game, he would come across as an unhinged psychopath with no personality or humanity. And we are expected to believe that she is falling in love with him purely because they shot some people together a few times.

There's no reason to believe that a romance is developing between these two characters and we only get to see and experience one half of it any way. This makes it incredibly difficult to engage with it because it doesn't feel real. We can't understand why Alyx would like Gordon and so we disconnect. There's no reciprocation of emotions, there's no drama about it, it's just something they threw in and hoped would work but it doesn't. The player may see why Gordon would be attracted to Alyx but there's nothing happening when we consider why Alyx would like Gordon. This can be applied to Zelda too. I have never once felt that there was ever an attempt at a romantic sub-plot in a single Zelda game because Link is never shown to really interact with other people. Skyward Sword was a better attempt at including such a story but, again, the nature of Link's silent character means that we see him interact very little with Zelda herself and the entire relationship is guided exclusively by her and her actions. Again, we have a situation in which we can see why Link would like Zelda but not why Zelda would like Link. We don't see the relationship grow or develop and we can't do anything about it either, so it's difficult to get emotionally invested in it.

Mass Effect does romance much better because it is guided by the player. You interact with your crew on your terms and, as you do, you develop real connections with people. Yes, a lot of people will have gone down the romance route purely for the... *cough*... 'romantic embraces' towards the end but if you go into it trying to just put yourself into that universe instead of working towards a specific goal you'd be surprised by what you get out of it. I'm one of the few people whose main Mass Effect avatar was a female Shepherd and in the end my Shepherd ended up falling in love with Garrus. This was one of the better parts of the game because Garrus was my favourite character and seeing that bond form between player and character was very rewarding. In this way, the concept of romance was used not to titilate or garner attention but to get the player invested emotionally and engage with what was happening.

Danger and violence also don't maturity make but I shan't go on another three paragraph ramble about that. Maturity comes from themes and engaging with the audience. If you feel a connection to what's happening or to specific characters then the game can be described as mature. Braid is a very mature game, for example. I almost cried when I played it because it made me consider choices I had made in my life and filled me with a deep feeling of regret. It achieved this with bright colours, a 'plot' that was disjointed and not real and an extended reference to the humour of Monty Python. The theme of Braid was reflection and regret and the central puzzle mechanic of rewinding time underlined that superbly. In the end, I had an emotional experience, rather than just being broadly entertained for several hours.

The reason why I voted for 'Other' was to point out that video games can be more mature in really simple ways too. As an interactive media, video games can actually achieve a degree of maturity by simply respecting their audience. Modern Warfare 2 opens with a slow tutorial about how to walk and how to aim your gun. It's simplistic and idiotic and it makes no real sense in the context of the game. It is an example of the game treating its audience like a child, a decision made all the less understandable when you consider that the games are rated for adult players only. Yes, children play it but its target audience does not need to be treated that way. Skyward Sword would be an example from the Zelda franchise. The character of Fi was nothing but a hand-holding guide whose only purpose was to make sure that you never had to wonder what to do next by giving you all the answers. In this way, the original The Legend of Zelda was a more mature video game than more recent entries because it left players to figure things out themselves, to try things out, experiment, explore and learn about the game they were playing.

Death and romance and violence, yes, they can all make a game more mature but not by themselves. There has to be something more to them, some reason or meaning, that gets the audience emotionally involved. Having those things for the sake of having them is not mature. Video games also have the ability to display a level of maturity by not treating their audience like babies who need to be trained in order to play a game. People are intelligent and can learn and understand things by doing. A Zelda game which left us on our own a lot more would be somewhat more mature by that aspect alone, if you ask me.
 
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snakeoiltanker

Wake Up!
Joined
Nov 13, 2012
Location
Ohio
i dont have time to read everyones post yet cuz im leaveing for work, Real hurry here. But "Darker more Mature" to me has nothing to do with violence, romance or anything like that. it all about the tone. WW was more Violent than TP, however TP was still the darker game.

TONE! TONE! TONE! thats what i mean by darker, and as far as mature, just not so cutesy looking with nice and cute polite characters all the time. nothing to do with romance or violence once again, its tone and realistic Plot, compared to other zelda games, that is whay you call Darker and more mature. i will elaborate more later!
 

Random Person

Just Some Random Person
Joined
Feb 6, 2010
Location
Wig-Or-Log
Darker - Horrible, gritty events happen. Things that children shouldn't know exist in the world. Scary is also apart of this.
Ex: The Shadow Temple. The Arbiter's Grounds. Cremia and Romani's talk.
(I don't want this)

More Serious - The game acknowledges bad events and doesn't make light of them.
Ex: Barne's Breakdown. The Alley Soldier's death. Cremia and Romani's talk.
(I want this)

More Mature - Any combination of the above two as well as some more added non-kid friendly things such as sex.
Ex: Cremia and Romani's talk.
(Don't really want this, but don't not want it either)
 

ILU

i luv u
Joined
Dec 17, 2011
I voted more romance/blood, because that's pretty much what it doesn't have so far. When I think of a darker Zelda, I think of what most people (usually incorrectly) think dark/mature is. In MOST cases, it comes down to visuals. Like TP. TWW was loads and loads "darker" but many can't see past visuals. I blame this on a lack of gaming exploration, such as not playing older gen games, the tunnel-visioned western gaming marketing, and not seeing outside of the pretty box our generation of uber graphix has built around the industry. There's no reason not to.

Most Zelda games already have dark/mature/serious themes, but they are presented in a way that allows more mature audiences to grasp them while younger audiences won't be overwhelmed by something they aren't ready for. Examples of this are:

ALttP: Sacrificing innocent girls
LA: Sacrifice and selflessness for the greater good
OoT: Forced adulthood on innocence
MM: Developing mature understandings of an adult world
TWW: Self-destruction, self-awareness, and sacrifice

I sure as heck didn't catch on to any of it when I was younger. Now that I'm older, I can. I think making it IN-YOUR-FACE mature/dark takes the creativity out of it. At least for Zelda.

There are already deaths or other types of losses in Zelda. Adding more won't make it more mature. It's the significance of the dying individual or they way they leave that makes the impact. Marin, the guard in OoT, Princess Zelda in TP (still counts, even if she's revived), the Deku Butler's son, Ganon in The Wind Waker, The Great Deku Tree, Medli, Saria, Link's Uncle, the Flute Boy, etc. The only thing I can see adding to this would be blood, which we did get red blood in OoT (gold). I never really notice blood in ANY games since I've become so desensitized to it, so adding more wouldn't really be beneficial. But I think many want to see it anyway.

A serious romance would be more mature, undoubtedly. But would it be necessary? I think the best-friend thing Link and Zelda had in Skyward Sword was just right. It presented a character you wanted to protect, and the budding-romance hints were just right for the characters' ages. Pushing past that boundary into sexual attraction would allow for character development in new ways for Zelda, but with that step would come the loss of Link's innocence, and I can't see Nintendo doing that. I can't see any good writer putting a pure-hearted, innocent young man/older teenager into a mature setting like that. It wouldn't fit. You'd have to begin stripping the layers of innocence away from Link, and that goes against the image that's been developed for him. It'd be like shaving Mario's beard and making him buff just to fit a more mature setting. To some, it's worth it. But this would be one area of seriousness Zelda HASN'T explored.

Then comes the sense of danger.... really, this has more to due with failure to present the situation properly. In every Zelda game, the situation is dire. It's just that there isn't enough happening between events to make it seem so. When Ganondorf chased after Zelda and Impa, it felt dangerous. You find that guard, and things seem to look pretty bad. That was a great part in the game, but afterward, everything seems fine in town. The feeling of danger dissipated quickly. In Twilight Princess, the entire world is being covered in darkness, but you're only really attacked at certain parts, making the in-between time seem like there's no real threat unless you advance to the next point. Most Zelda games have this problem, but fixing it doesn't necessarily make the game feel more mature/dark/serious. More enemies could attack, more people could die, but it wouldn't make a difference. The threat needs to feel real. This needs to be reflected by the visuals/location (think the market in OoT when you emerge from the Temple of Time as an adult), the story/characters needs to stress the importance of the situation by showing fear/anger/sadness/etc. like in TP when they were huddling in fear in Kakariko, and there needs to be a sense of urgency which can be incorporated in a variety of ways such as time limits, choices and consequences, or by other means that many other games have successfully used. The potential is already there, it just needs some ironing out. I'm not so sure it'd add to maturity/darkness/seriousness though.

So.... IMO, from my own personal interpretation and study of these games, I think Zelda already has what so many fans are looking for in the way of maturity. Many just can't pick up on it without it being obvious and in their face.
 

Dragoncat

Twilit wildcat: Aerofelis
WW was more Violent than TP, however TP was still the darker game.
How so? WW had Ganondorf turning to stone, TP had Ganondorf being stabbed in the belly, throwing the sword and cutting the head off a sage, and bleeding white blood from the belly wound. And apparently there was red blood on a gate. And some of the enemies bled. I think TP is more violent by far.

Random Person: You said you didn't want Darker, but your examples have been used...meh.
 

snakeoiltanker

Wake Up!
Joined
Nov 13, 2012
Location
Ohio
How so? WW had Ganondorf turning to stone, TP had Ganondorf being stabbed in the belly, throwing the sword and cutting the head off a sage, and bleeding white blood from the belly wound. And apparently there was red blood on a gate. And some of the enemies bled. I think TP is more violent by far.

Random Person: You said you didn't want Darker, but your examples have been used...meh.

that was not not blood in his belly that was the light of the magic that the sages THOUGHT was strong enough to Bond him till they realized the gods for some reason game him the Triforce of Power, and he didnt throw the sword at the sage, he just dashed at his throat with his hand and due the the power of the Triforce (the onlything than can effect the sages), the sage simply vanished from the power of the Triforce, and all that was left was the mask, no beheading, i just seen this cuz scene yesterday!
 

Dragoncat

Twilit wildcat: Aerofelis
that was not not blood in his belly that was the light of the magic that the sages THOUGHT was strong enough to Bond him till they realized the gods for some reason game him the Triforce of Power, and he didnt throw the sword at the sage, he just dashed at his throat with his hand and due the the power of the Triforce (the onlything than can effect the sages), the sage simply vanished from the power of the Triforce, and all that was left was the mask, no beheading, i just seen this cuz scene yesterday!
Well...it's been a long time since I saw that cutscene. But when you fight him in the battle of beasts(wolf link vs boar ganon)it looks like he's bleeding through that wound.
 

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