The Future of the Hylian Knight Usergroup

[Krazy4Krash]

In regards to restarting the poll, I thought it was pretty clear in the OP that people needed to "refrain from voting until they have made up their mind". I don't mind if it's reset, but for all the people who have changed their point of view, they should known better than to have selected their old choice prematurely. No grudge to them, of course, there's no problem with being persuaded.

 

[CynicalSquid]

Pancake, stop. You are literally insulting everyone who is voting against the movement by saying they are stubborn, . Just stop, it's wasting my time and many others by having to deal with your belittlement.

No, I am not insulting everyone. I wasn't even insulting Kitsu. I was saying they might just be stubborn, close minded, biased, etc. I was in no way saying ANYONE was doing any of that. I was just saying, that you could possibly step back and see things that way.

And no, I will not just stop having an opinion.

In fact, I am EXTREMELY offended by you calling my opinion "a waste of time" and "having to deal with your belittlement." I'm sorry my opinion bugs you that much, but you can just no reply, instead of just throwing insults.

 

[Jamie]

I'm not saying your opinion is a waste of my time, I never said anything even close to that. I said you belittling us is a waste of time. Saying "don't you think that you might all be close minded" is just softer way of saying "you're all close minded". Don't dance around it. Your opinion can easily be stated without accusing us of being close minded.

The concept behind HK is more or less to be a "role model" group. Well, this is flawed because it essentially sets up a situation in which you have an exclusive group voting on who your role models are. Yes, you obviously don't have to have the predefined HKs as role models, but the concept itself is stupid. It essentially turns the idea of role models and having members you look up to into a bureaucracy. It's a concept that runs contrary to what it's trying to achieve. That always has been the problem, and always will. The HK rank is a manifestation of contradictory ideas and cannot exist because it cancels itself out.

Maybe we can have guilds like in WoW.

 

[(◕‿◕✿)]

Maybe we can have guilds like in WoW.

Something to that effect has been suggested before. A while back, Djinn proposed having clans, a la Zelda Universe. Basically have clans people can join on their own and then have a forum just for that clan.

 

[CynicalSquid]

The concept behind HK is more or less to be a "role model" group. Well, this is flawed because it essentially sets up a situation in which you have an exclusive group voting on who your role models are. Yes, you obviously don't have to have the predefined HKs as role models, but the concept itself is stupid. It essentially turns the idea of role models and having members you look up to into a bureaucracy. It's a concept that runs contrary to what it's trying to achieve. That always has been the problem, and always will. The HK rank is a manifestation of contradictory ideas and cannot exist because it cancels itself out.

V

Me and Repentance had a conversation about this earlier. I'll just dump what was said.

[2:53:36 AM] Repentance: My personal opinion is that HKs simply don't do anything.
[2:53:43 AM] Repentance: But I understand the argument for them
[2:54:20 AM | Edited 2:54:34 AM] Keith: I like that it lets people like JC and Heroine set an example for new members in ways that a regular member can't
[2:54:58 AM] Repentance: But can't they do the same without a special rank?
[2:55:26 AM] Keith: It catches the eye better. Like when you add a picture to your 4chan post
[2:55:48 AM] Repentance: Maybe. I disagree but I see your point of view.
[2:55:55 AM] Keith: And it singles them out so you go, "Huh, that's the guy who made that really good thread last week"
[2:56:24 AM] Repentance: I get you, I just see it differently.

...

[2:58:09 AM] Keith: It has slight power. Not like mwahaha power but they can close their own threads and generally have more sway on mods and admins
[2:58:43 AM] Keith: If it had a place in the hierarchy, it'd be on the same level as member, but exclusively towards the top of that level imo
[2:59:09 AM] Repentance: So is just a very good poster who isn't an hk.
[3:00:13 AM] Keith: Perhaps. But the sway they have is an important perk
[3:01:18 AM] Repentance: I disagree with the rank is all.
[3:01:30 AM] Repentance: Not much can be said aside from that
[3:01:37 AM] Keith: I can understand why to be fair
[3:02:01 AM] Keith: I just like it for some silly reason I haven't figured out yet
[3:02:53 AM] Repentance: Lol understandable

Sums up my feelings pretty quickly.

Yes, essentially. With the new system, whenever a nomination thread is made, we're taking a period of three months to discuss the potential efficiency of a member as a role model and vote to either promote them or pass them up for that time. Once a member gains a certain amount of votes (currently the aim is 60% approval), then they are promoted as an HK. The only reason that there hasn't been another addition to the position is because nobody got enough votes during a system which had no voting deadline. Earlier this month I made an encapsulation of the attempted nomination systems; here it is...



---



The Knights exist as role models, and we have several uses outside of proliferating our numbers. Most notable is the quality of our posts, which are intended to urge members to make thread responses with the same consistency and topical clarity as us (to the best of their ability), yet others already do this without our help. Secondly is the disposition we give off when partaking in discussion; respectable and civil phrasing blended in with our posts to foster responses of that same caliber. Howbeit, I'll be the first to admit that our morale and dedication has dwindled exponentially (a lot of forum aspects have) ever since the indefinite process of the original rolling nominations took place. It's something that I plan to address to the other Knights soon. Provided that this function hasn't been overruled by then.

I really don't think there's any biased within the section regrading who gets nominated and the votes within said threads. Wolf gave some insight into a variety of members who have been nominated and that's only the surface. There may have been biased in the past, but I haven't witnessed any in my time as a HK... literally none. I have nominated members who I've had no affiliation with before and this isn't just me but most HKs who vote.

The idea that there is some biased agenda, that we only vote our friends, is completely ridiculous because it's not like we're all best buddies in the rank. There are a variety of different members within the HKs, the common denominator--the only thing we share--is the purple colour. We're all just individual members who got voted in at a point of time really, and I think people need to consider that before making these assumptions because they're rather baseless. I actually get where all other the criticism is coming from; however biased voting/nominating is not something that exists within the section, or at
least in the time I've been a HK.

Sorry if this came off as a little bit blunt, but I wanted to clear up some misconceptions.

Yeah well I think that's a given, subconscious biased I mean, but I'm mainly talking about blatant biased and a collective biased among us like we only vote in a certain group of people, which isn't true. Like I said, we all have very different views in the rank - this is why it took us awhile to usher in a new system because there was conflicting views about how we should function. This also happens in nomination threads, where there have been quite a few disagreements.

I get that broadening the horizon on who gets to vote may eliminate whatever slight biased may exist, but it also creates a problem in that no definite general consensus will ever be reached. You think that everyone will support a decision, each and every single member? It's proved that, even among our small group, we have had disputes and disagreed on things - you bring this to a much, much wider audience and I only see it creating more animosity and larger split among the current roster of members. It has its advantages, but most certainly it's disadvantages as well.


Yeah sure I see why people think that, hell, I thought that until I got an insight into the section. I can't really prove anything, especially since old threads have now been deleted (because of the new system), but I guess I can attempt to correct what I would view as a misconception.

I have to disagree with that. The fact that you are not posting in the Zelda section has nothing to do with it. Go ahead and look at my most recent posts; I rarely ever post outside of the mafia and competition sections. And it's not a rank just for the friends of the knights. I'm sure there's some bias in there, as is natural with human beings, but I wasn't friends with any of the knights. I'm still not overly close to any of them. In fact, I think I was once in the same category as you. I thought that since I was only active in my own few little sections and didn't know any of the knights, I had no chance of ever, ever being nominated. I was okay with that, too. I was a wiki person, not a forum person. It came as a COMPLETE shock when I was offered the rank.

The reason I got the offer was not because I was friends with anyone, or because I demonstrated that I knew a lot about Zelda. So I know for a fact that these are not the only things they're looking for in HKs. At least not anymore.

I'm not sure why you were not offered the Hylian Knight rank, but it's not very fair assume it's due COMPLETELY to bias. I don't know anything about your history on the forums, so I can't say much more than that. I simply feel the need to defend it as much as I possibly can, since my own nomination also seemed like the least likely thing ever at the time, and I think I kind of know how you feel... I know the frustration of thinking you deserve something, but seeing others you deem less deserving getting it instead.

I don't see the harm in keeping it. It really doesn't hurt anything. Mostly I see the people who are calling it a "social club" are people who have never been a part of it and don't understand what it's like, exactly. And the idea that Hylian Knights are somehow "more superior" is total BS. Most Knights I know do not think like that. That stigma, along with the idea that it's an exclusive club, is being perpetuated by the people who misguidedly believe it.

The HK rank really isn't an exclusive club. They are just supposed to serve as examples for newer members for behavior. They are role models. Of course, anyone can be a role model without being a Hylian Knight, but that doesn't mean the rank should be abolished. And there may be lots of issues with the rank, especially with the voting process (at least there was when I resigned, I dunno how things are faring now), but those are things that can be fixed, and by the sound of things effort is being made to fix that. It might take a while to fix those issues, but they are fixable. So I don't see a reason to disband them.

EDIT: Speaking of the voting process... I wonder, would it be more favorable to people if HK voting was public and all of the forum members could take part? It'd be a once-a-month sort of thing, or once every few months. That might help alleviate some issues people have with the system, like those who don't like the fact that only HKs can vote other HKs. I dunno if that's been suggested before, though.

Because I truly did feel that HKs were doing what they were meant to do, be role models.

People like Thareous, Vanessa, Mandy, Wolf Sage, Azure, and countless other I can't think of off the top of my head. Those were people I looked up to for the longest time and still do. I know they don't need the rank to be role models. I still look up to Mandy, Azure, and Wolf despite them stepping down, but the rank just helps these individuals stand out though. They help new members out and set an example better than anyone else can. It makes the people that new members should see as role models stand out more, because these people set good examples for the members.



Bias would be far more of a problem if regular members vote for HKs tbh

 

[(◕‿◕✿)]

V

Okay, first off, I don't even know what Keith is trying to say in his post. HKs are like image boards? I don't get it. What perks do they have?

I'm not even concerning myself with this whole "bias" thing or whatever, it's pointless. It's a layer of nonsense on top of a mountain of nonsense. I don't care what you do to "reform the HKs", or, "eliminate bias" because it's all meaningless. I have already stated why I view the HKs as inherently flawed, so posting quotes about bias and improving the ranks is largely irrelevant.

 

[CynicalSquid]

I'm not saying your opinion is a waste of my time, I never said anything even close to that. I said you belittling us is a waste of time. Saying "don't you think that you might all be close minded" is just softer way of saying "you're all close minded". Don't dance around it. Your opinion can easily be stated without accusing us of being close minded.

I'm sorry about that. I didn't mean to come of that way and I also didn't mean to belittle or offend you guys. However, I still feel like people are outright ignoring what other people are saying and just suggesting the removal of the rank without giving it any chance at all. That's why I feel like you guys are being close minded or just have some grudge against the rank. That is my opinion. I truly do feel like a lot of people against it are being either stubborn, close minded, or biased.

Okay, first off, I don't even know what Keith is trying to say in his post. HKs are like image boards? I don't get it. What perks do they have?

I'm not even concerning myself with this whole "bias" thing or whatever, it's pointless. It's a layer of nonsense on top of a mountain of nonsense. I don't care what you do to "reform the HKs", or, "eliminate bias" because it's all meaningless. I have already stated why I view the HKs as inherently flawed, so posting quotes about bias and improving the ranks is largely irrelevant.

Thank you for ignoring everything and being stubborn because you have some grudge against it.

Now, I'm done wasting my time with all your belittlement.

 

[Jamie]

I'm sorry about that. I didn't mean to come of that way and I also didn't mean to belittle or offend you guys. However, I still feel like people are outright ignoring what other people are saying and just suggesting the removal of the rank without giving it any chance at all. That's why I feel like you guys are being close minded or just have some grudge against the rank. That is my opinion. I truly do feel like a lot of people against it are being either stubborn, close minded, or biased.

It's not that the rank is a bad thing, but if you read through my posts here you will see why I think it could either be handled better or that it isn't really necessary to begin with. I already said, I'm not anti-HK, I would feel honored to be a Hylian Knight, I just don't know if it's the right way to go.

 

[CynicalSquid]

One last thing

The concept behind HK is more or less to be a "role model" group. Well, this is flawed because it essentially sets up a situation in which you have an exclusive group voting on who your role models are. Yes, you obviously don't have to have the predefined HKs as role models, but the concept itself is stupid. It essentially turns the idea of role models and having members you look up to into a bureaucracy. It's a concept that runs contrary to what it's trying to achieve. That always has been the problem, and always will. The HK rank is a manifestation of contradictory ideas and cannot exist because it cancels itself out.

I'm not even concerning myself with this whole "bias" thing or whatever, it's pointless. It's a layer of nonsense on top of a mountain of nonsense. I don't care what you do to "reform the HKs", or, "eliminate bias" because it's all meaningless. I have already stated why I view the HKs as inherently flawed, so posting quotes about bias and improving the ranks is largely irrelevant.

 

[Zorth]

I'm sorry about that. I didn't mean to come of that way and I also didn't mean to belittle or offend you guys. However, I still feel like people are outright ignoring what other people are saying and just suggesting the removal of the rank without giving it any chance at all. That's why I feel like you guys are being close minded or just have some grudge against the rank. That is my opinion. I truly do feel like a lot of people against it are being either stubborn, close minded, or biased.

It is funny you should say that since the entire issue seems to be completely ignored every time by most HK supporters. It still has nothing to do with bias, what being a role model truly means, giving it another shot... The issue is that the HK system is fundametally flawed and really serves no purpose no matter if you fulfill all the current wishes as to what the rank ought to mean and look like by November.

 

[(◕‿◕✿)]

Thank you for ignoring everything and being stubborn because you have some grudge against it.

Now, I'm done wasting my time with all your belittlement.

Nice passive-aggressive jab. No, I didn't ignore what you said, I specifically responded to it already. Just because it's not the answer you want doesn't mean I ignored you. I don't hold a grudge against, or anything on this site. I just think it's a flawed concept and it'd be better to remove it, and start anew.

I was not belittling you, sorry if it came off that way.

 

[Jamie]

Okay everyone let's all get out our inhalers and take a breather. Maybe take a step outside.

 

[CynicalSquid]

I literally don't care anymore. Just cut off their head right when they reform.

Consider this my final post here. I don't know why I cared so much. I have more of a chance to be admin than ever be HK.

 

[Zorth]

Okay everyone let's all get out our inhalers and take a breather. Maybe take a step outside.

Yes!

Maybe during this time take a peek at the campaign for a new Admin! ? : http://zeldadungeon.net/forum/group.php?groupid=1936

 

[CynicalSquid]

Please report all of my replies.