Game Thread ExLight's Custom Role Mafia - ENDGAME [TOWN WINS]

[Ragnarokio]

Do you think people would let them slip by with that excuse?

yes

 

[15377]

I'm not trying to make anyone look dumb, I'm just pointing out that I don't see the town motive behind what they did, and if they don't use the cop shot in a towny way, I'mma do my best to make sure there are consequences.

It is in a townly way, as Minish has gone over already, so I won't rehash that. Is it less than optimal? Yes. I've already stated as such. But so is trying to lynch the mod when you're supposed to be looking for wolves and yet that didn't stop you from voting Ex yesterday. Glass houses my dude. So while lynching Ex is a distraction from lynching wolves I'll do what I can to negate that distraction.

@15377 Couple questions. What’s your read on PK? We know dawning gains a lot of income from each sale depending on the price. Does your role allow for a large amount to be gained or a small amount? Are you limited when it comes to buying at all?

I don't trust PK to be town. Which is partly why I had no qualms about taking the shot from him. To be clear I've seen nothing from him that makes me think that slot is town, while some of his stances have been questionable (item hoarding for example). As for your other questions, I see no good reason to put that information out at this juncture.

 

[Morbid Minish]

Wait, we have 48 hour nights. Can we vote to shorten these?

Vote: Phase shortening

 

[Mint Elv]

As for your other questions, I see no good reason to put that information out at this juncture.

I don’t like this reluctance. Mafia would be more reluctant about giving information on their claim than town, if it’s a fake claim and you actually used mafia money to buy the item. Though I also know not everyone is ready to fully openly claim their role, for fear of being nightkilled, and too much pressure without further information would be rolefishing.

 

[ExLight]

Wait, we have 48 hour nights. Can we vote to shorten these?

Vote: Phase shortening

Hmm, I was discussing this earlier with my lovely co-host and I decided I'll enable it as an option for people to vote later in the Day.

For now I'll leave N1 as 48h, sorry!

 

[DawningWinds]

I don’t like this reluctance. Mafia would be more reluctant about giving information on their claim than town, if it’s a fake claim and you actually used mafia money to buy the item. Though I also know not everyone is ready to fully openly claim their role, for fear of being nightkilled, and too much pressure without further information would be rolefishing.

Town could have reasons to be reluctant as well. As one example, there's been mention of possibility of roles that could just steal money from others, and if such a role was a Mafia role leaving them in the dark about how much they have makes there a question of how worth stealing from them it would be, meaning Mafia could incorrectly assume its a lot and steal almost nothing, or incorrectly assume its a little and steal elsewhere. That doesn't make Numbers town, but I don't think that particular action is hugely scummy.


Also unrelated but advance warning for all the other players: host decision regarding shortening night phases means I might not be around for any EoDs for a while/potentially the rest of the game. I just had another game starting and phase update time is the same as this one, the first Day of the other game will be ending at the same time as the next Day of this one and then I assume people here will want to shorten Night 2 of this game so the cycles will be the same length as well meaning all Days will end at the same time, and EoDs on the site the other one's on have a tendency to be pretty chaotic so they might have to take precedence. So if I miss some or all of the future EoDs here please don't yell at me.

 

[Seanzie]

Seanzie has had a lot of stuff I disagree with, especially in regards to Mint and lynching Ex. However, his play seems generally consistent with last game where he was town so I'll chalk that up to differing opinions on how to play.

Regardless of if we agree or not, am I approaching the game from a towny perspective? I might look a little like I did one game ago, but I think when we were both town two games ago, I was playing quite different than this, so I'd prefer you to give better reasons to read me one way or the other than "he is similar to last game" since meta-replication is not so hard.

Agreeance on things is NAI. Do you have reasons to believe my alignment is one way or the other based on anything else?

 

[Seanzie]

Because of intent. For one, using a cop shot on the host when people are seriously proposing lynching them isn't awful. Flavor cop would be more useful but KoD has his own ideas for that. We don't know what lynching the host will do and any info we can find out about the outcome is beneficial when it could have serious consequences. Plus I trust that Numbers has thought about this. The only downside y'all can argue is that it won't out scum/clear a player when lynching the host would effectively be a waste of a lynch, yet you were pushing that. Plus we know what happens when we lynch town/Mafia. We don't know what happens when we lynch the host. Cop shots this early in the game are a shot in the dark basically. Low chance of finding scum. Sure we can verify one person as town if we don't hit scum, but then they'll just be a target of mafia soon enough.

Not to mention we may even have a normal cop in the game. Or at least someone with the ability to investigate. The lack of overlap by targeting the host is good.


Whereas PK hoarding everything doesn't help in any way. We don't know if PK is town, so saying that they're hoarding items to keep Mafia from getting them is either you giving info you shouldn't have about PK's alignment (making you Mafia), or you putting a ton of trust in PK for seemingly no reason. Town can get items just as easy as mafia by way of being online when they go up and mafia not being. Also, Mafia does have incentive to save money so that they can still possibly win if mafia loses. Which they already have a numbers disadvantage. PK also didn't seem to think about the idea of hoarding items making him a great target for Mafia to wait til he has a stockpile and then kill him, getting rid of a ton of useful items because he likely can't use more than one at the same time and we have 3 in a day/night cycle. The fact that PK didn't think of this means he either didn't really think his plan through a ton, or he knows he's not going to be targeted by Mafia.

I whole-heartedly disagree with your point about intent. I can find a clear towny reason why someone would want to buy all items before someone else. They could still be scum, but the towny reasoning is clear there. On the other hand, I cannot find clear towny reasoning to use a cop shot on Ex. Cop shots are extremely extremely valuable and this is a huge waste. If they are worried about Ex being an elim, then I will happily agree to not push Ex's elim next phase if we use the cop shot on literally anyone other than ex, because it is IMO an extremely anti-town move to use the cop shot on the host.

I don't think your "we could have a normal cop" argument really affects anything since PK's plan (which I think we should do, but I'll hear out other plans) would clearly indicate who the cop shot is going to target, so there is no chance of double-targeting. Even with a small chance, it still just isn't remotely worth wasting a cop shot on the OFF chance it doubles up.

PK hoarding doesn't help, but a townie buying things immediately before scum can does help. Clear town motive. They could still be scum, but I don't see how there isn't clear town motive here.

 

[Seanzie]

"15377, you should do exactly what PK was going to do (use the cop shot on a majority vote). Anything less "

I think you are bossing him around so he uses it the exact way you want to, like if he does anything else it's just wrong when that's not necessarily true :u.

You can call it "bossing him around" if you want, but at the end of the day, part of the game is trying to get people to do what you want them to do (there are other parts, but this is one part). I am not saying they HAVE to do what I say, I'm saying if they don't, I'll try to get them flipped. Rag earlier said something like "if anyone votes Storm, I'll take that as a scumclaim". Were they being bossy there, or just trying to get people to do what they wanted? It is both and neither.

I will gladly "be bossy" if I think that is the best way to help town win. In my opinion, 15337's current plan is extremely anti-town, so I am very adamantly trying to get them to change that plan. If someone has a better plan than PK's, I'm all ears, but I haven't seen that, so I am going to try to do everythign in my power to get 15337 to follow PK's plan.

No I am not okay with 15377's plan, but it is his role and we have to reason with him instead of making ultimatums :/. I don't think I would even lynch him if he actually did check ExLight. He is revealing the info that he bought it so it's not like he is being secretive.

The use of "we" here bothers me. "we have to reason with him instead of making ultimatums"... Have you made a single post to 15337 about this? If you have, I'm sorry I missed it, but I'm pretty sure all you've done is try to dissuade me from trying to get 15337 to do something different without you actually trying to get 15337 to do something different.

Yes, I can figure as much ^^;. That reads list wasn't very detailed I agree but I was doing my best trying to get everyone together and the discussion going with what energy I had. I don't understand what you mean by pockety?

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean by "less dense than I expect". I am doing what I know and can with what I have.

Let me know if you don't know what "pocketing" means in mafia. Your post was pockety in the fact that it made me feel good about my own posts, which often causes people to feel good about the giver of the good feelings, even though you didn't actually do anything AI to deserve taht.

By "less dense than I expect" I mean I expect most townies to give detailed content-dense thoughts reasonably often. Not every post needs to be that way, but I find wolves often make very long posts that are low-content density in order to look townier than they are. Your posts are not devoid of content, and have made me doubt my snap scumread on you from earlier but I'd say they are not dense enough to clear you on multiple having long try-hardy posts.

 

[Seanzie]

I think targeting the mod is probably a waste (if its even legal) but i recognize that not everyone sees the game the same way I do. I don't think it makes any sense from a scum perspective to buy the cop, announce that you've bought it, and then announce that you're going to waste it. Scum numbers gains nothing from that. He could announce that he bought it and then that he used it on a player (announcing whatever check he felt like), or even just keep silent that he bought it. The only reason i can imagine numbers claiming he was going to use it on ex is because he genuinely felt it was the best strategy.

I agree that 15337 actually announcing they bought the cop check is perplexing me, and makes me wonder if 15337 is just town who IMO is doing a sub-optimal thing, but I also can reconcile this with a scum!15337 world without too much effort by wondering if scum has some reason to think there is a way to find out who bought what item (which isn't an unreasonable assumption even if they don't have any direct evidence of it). It is still probably sub-optimal for scum!15337 to do that specific plan rather than claiming the cop check and greenchecking either a townie or a scum (granted this makes FPS, which some people are bad at), I still really really have a hard time seeing how a townie would decide that Ex was the best shot, vs I could possibly see a scummy who felt like they had to claim the bid could try to pass of "I'mma target Ex" as a reasonable plan, even though I personally think it really really isn't. So like... Is 15337 doing a very bad plan as town vs a kinda bad plan as scum? is kinda the question I'm asking myself.

 

[Seanzie]

It is in a townly way, as Minish has gone over already, so I won't rehash that. Is it less than optimal? Yes. I've already stated as such. But so is trying to lynch the mod when you're supposed to be looking for wolves and yet that didn't stop you from voting Ex yesterday. Glass houses my dude. So while lynching Ex is a distraction from lynching wolves I'll do what I can to negate that distraction.

The only thing towny about what you did was claiming it, but that isn't that towny as there could easily be scum motive for that too.

No, not glass houses, the situations are completely different.

Either way, if I agree to not go after Ex tomorrow, will you use PK's strategy?

I don't trust PK to be town. Which is partly why I had no qualms about taking the shot from him. To be clear I've seen nothing from him that makes me think that slot is town, while some of his stances have been questionable (item hoarding for example). As for your other questions, I see no good reason to put that information out at this juncture.

What about the fact that PK actually DID buy the cop shot in a towny way?

 

[Seanzie]

@15377

Would you mind publicly bidding 1051 coins?

 

[Morbid Minish]

I hate to say it, but tonight is probably the best night for Storm to die. Tonight is the night with the most positive actions available, and depending on how it works, it might also triple role or flavor cops, thought that's something @Storm would know better than me.

If Storm is not killed tonight, mafia can choose when storm dies. And unless it's set up strangely, mafia will have their kill until they all die, while the rest of us lose out on more actions every turn someone dies. It's in mafia's interest to keep storm alive as long as possible, and in town's interest to kill them quickly.

I don't think this is a good look. For one, it could be Mafia covering for Storm dying by them targeting him with one of their non-killing night actions.

Also, if we're worried about mafia choosing when to kill Storm, we can just kill him ourselves and no lynch that day so we don't get two townies dead at once, if Storm is town (which I guess he could have rolled Mafia, but that would really suck for them to have that role on their team).

That's why we just don't lynch them. What alignment could the host possibly have that would make that a good idea? I very much doubt they're mafia, and will anything change if we find out they're an Administrator or a Game Master? No. None of these questions are resolved.

The people who want Ex to die are just curious, and finding out Ex's faction won't fix that curiousity..

Well seeing as Ex was one away from tying with the lynch d1 others didn't seem to agree with just not lynching him. Who is to say that Ex isn't considered town that just can't do anything? Or same with mafia? I'm not saying it's likely, but if he made himself a player of the game AND targetable, not just lynchable, then it's not out of the realm of possibilities. Not to mention he could come up 3rd party or something (depending on how alignments show to checks this game), in which case we would know that we don't have to lynch him to win the game. At least until all Mafia are dead, and no other deaths are happening so it's our last resort.

I would rather check Ex than lynch him for curiosities sake.

it would be a waste of a confirmed alignment, which is way more important. My plan would verify someone as town. Either me, if I scanned a mafia, or my target, if I didn't and was killed for it.

Well for one I'm not killing someone just because they hit town with a cop check and I'd argue against it. I don't think it's optimal play to lynch to verify. We should be lynching who we think is mafia. Also, if you claim that you copped someone as mafia, then we lynch them and they're actually town, then that buys Mafia one more day, and who knows what actions.

In a 13-person game, I would guess that we have around 3 members of the mafia. The "low chance" is almost 25% to hit a mafia member. This is a great item. Confirmed town is great too, because we get all the info that comes from a person's death without killing a friendly. Again, scanning Ex doesn't do that.

We don't get all of the info that comes with their death. We'd only get alignment, not role name. And knowing role names can at least give some info to work with. We don't know what copping Ex tells us.

Publicly stating who will be scanned is a good idea, but that's true no matter who is targeted. And acting as though we might have an alignment cop who might be on our team seems like a bad idea to me.

Publicly stating who to use the cop on is awful. It's possible that will give mafia a chance to mess with it. If for instance the stated target is town and Mafia has a roleblocker, they could block the person using the shot and then push the narrative that they were obviously blocked because their target was mafia and they didn't want it found out. Mafia knowing who has the cop shot at all is bad because it gives them chance to mess with the holder. Targeting Ex is the only target that Mafia has no reason to block because Mafia wouldn't wanted outted Mafia or possibly confirmed town.

This also applies to town, which has an information disadvantage. but Dawn will probably win that anyways, so I don't think it's relevant.

Town doesn't have an information disadvantage if you don't hoard items. Since it gives more town a chance to get and use them. Plus the roles they already have. That on top of having the majority of players on their side makes it less in town interest to save their money than scum. Also we have no clue if Dawning will win that. There may be ways to gain/lose money that we don't know of yet, since doing so was mentioned in the rules.

Mafia can generally make more use out of items than town because they know they won't hit their teammates. So the point of hoarding would be to keep the items out of mafia hands more so than to use it. Being killed would suck, but they still can't use the items. So hoarding things would just deny them that use, while keeping it transparent who has items.

That doesn't mean Mafia will make more use out of items than town. Town can gain lots of knowledge with items, even if they target town or Mafia. Town with watcher watches someone and they die? Well there's outted Mafia. Town with tracker tracks someone and they visit someone that doesn't die? Well you at least know they didn't perform the kill (and that in combination with other actions can narrow down Mafia). Being killed means Mafia can't use the items AND town can't use the items. It's not that likely that Mafia will be able to grab every item themselves, and having items spread amongst town gives them way more utility because scum can't kill all of them at once and you get use of them all.

Also unrelated but advance warning for all the other players: host decision regarding shortening night phases means I might not be around for any EoDs for a while/potentially the rest of the game. I just had another game starting and phase update time is the same as this one, the first Day of the other game will be ending at the same time as the next Day of this one and then I assume people here will want to shorten Night 2 of this game so the cycles will be the same length as well meaning all Days will end at the same time, and EoDs on the site the other one's on have a tendency to be pretty chaotic so they might have to take precedence. So if I miss some or all of the future EoDs here please don't yell at me.

Could always vote to shorten day phases too. Which I personally don't mind, but it puts more strain on others to have time to contribute during the day sometimes.

Regardless of if we agree or not, am I approaching the game from a towny perspective? I might look a little like I did one game ago, but I think when we were both town two games ago, I was playing quite different than this, so I'd prefer you to give better reasons to read me one way or the other than "he is similar to last game" since meta-replication is not so hard.

Agreeance on things is NAI. Do you have reasons to believe my alignment is one way or the other based on anything else?

I wrote this before EOD. At that point I would have said I was unsure if you were approaching from a towny perspective. Now I don't really think you are. I don't remember the last game we played together before the last one, so I'm using what I do remember, and I actually do like to use meta. If you don't that's your choice. Us not agreeing is the meta I'm using to say that just because I think your ideas are not great, doesn't mean they're scum. People can disagree on stuff that's NAI.

I whole-heartedly disagree with your point about intent. I can find a clear towny reason why someone would want to buy all items before someone else. They could still be scum, but the towny reasoning is clear there. On the other hand, I cannot find clear towny reasoning to use a cop shot on Ex. Cop shots are extremely extremely valuable and this is a huge waste. If they are worried about Ex being an elim, then I will happily agree to not push Ex's elim next phase if we use the cop shot on literally anyone other than ex, because it is IMO an extremely anti-town move to use the cop shot on the host.

I don't think your "we could have a normal cop" argument really affects anything since PK's plan (which I think we should do, but I'll hear out other plans) would clearly indicate who the cop shot is going to target, so there is no chance of double-targeting. Even with a small chance, it still just isn't remotely worth wasting a cop shot on the OFF chance it doubles up.

PK hoarding doesn't help, but a townie buying things immediately before scum can does help. Clear town motive. They could still be scum, but I don't see how there isn't clear town motive here.

I don't see any clear towny reasoning in someone wanting to hoard items just to potentially keep them from Mafia when 1) we don't know if that person is mafia, and 2) other town could just as easily buy the items too and we would get much greater use out of them. There isn't clear town motive there because the idea of buying every item before scum can is so miniscule that it benefits scum way more than town.

I can see very clear town motive behind Numbers idea which I've already explained. It's not a waste when Ex was literally almost lynched d1. And we can find out possible info on him/whether we may need to lynch him or not. You were the one using the excuse that your first objective in games is to have fun when pushing the Ex lynch. And now that someone wants to use an item in a way that could be fun, informative, and possibly less harmful than lynching you're completely against it and willing to push for their lynch?

Also, like I said, announcing cop targets is awful. I don't want to do that plan anyways.

I agree that 15337 actually announcing they bought the cop check is perplexing me, and makes me wonder if 15337 is just town who IMO is doing a sub-optimal thing, but I also can reconcile this with a scum!15337 world without too much effort by wondering if scum has some reason to think there is a way to find out who bought what item (which isn't an unreasonable assumption even if they don't have any direct evidence of it). It is still probably sub-optimal for scum!15337 to do that specific plan rather than claiming the cop check and greenchecking either a townie or a scum (granted this makes FPS, which some people are bad at), I still really really have a hard time seeing how a townie would decide that Ex was the best shot, vs I could possibly see a scummy who felt like they had to claim the bid could try to pass of "I'mma target Ex" as a reasonable plan, even though I personally think it really really isn't. So like... Is 15337 doing a very bad plan as town vs a kinda bad plan as scum? is kinda the question I'm asking myself.

If that scum Numbers world doesn't take you much effort, but a town Numbers world does then I really question your motives this game.

 

[15377]

The only thing towny about what you did was claiming it, but that isn't that towny as there could easily be scum motive for that too.

No, not glass houses, the situations are completely different.

Either way, if I agree to not go after Ex tomorrow, will you use PK's strategy?

What about the fact that PK actually DID buy the cop shot in a towny way?

There's plenty Townly about it you're just actively dismissing it because it doesn't fit into your plans. Like you keep going on about how it is soooo anti-town but haven't presented a single argument how it actual goes against town, just presented how it's a sub optimal play, which absolutely nobody is disagreeing with, including myself.

And they are absolutely the same thing. It is using a game function on Ex instead of a player. The difference is I'm going about it in the smart way while you are insisting on jumping feet first without looking.

No. And for one simple reason. This is the second time you've brought up this bargain but both times you've specifically said if you don't tomorrow. Since language is important in Mafia this tells me you have every intention of returning to trying to lynch Ex you're just willing to put it off for a day to make sure I don't try to get information on him first. Since I can see absolutely no reason why town would be motivated to lynch without looking first I can only conclude you are either not town or already have information you aren't willing to share.

Did he though? I mean you assume his "public bid" was the 1000. But it easily could be a private bid by the Mafia and PK jumped in thread and made his post before Ex posted to make it seem like he solo bid on it. Nah. Bids are NAI regardless. As for your request for a public outbidding, I see no reason to do that either. This falls under the same category of mints questioning on my cash flow. Its not pertinent information for town at this juncture so there's no reason to put it out superfluously.

 

[Seanzie]

I can't even with this thread. It is like bizzaro world here.

"Explain why it is anti-town even though everyone agrees it is sub-optimal" (those two things are the same, so why would I bother to explain if everyone, including yourself gets it?)

"Any action taken agains the host are equal, so glass houses" (cop shot is one of the biggest most valuable things in the game with only positive benefits if used against a player. Elim's have positive and negative benefits and so sometimes are suboptimal, literally sometimes people choose to no elim, but a cop never chooses to no-invest because it is too important and there aren't downsides, not the same, stop this nonsense, there is this thing called nuance.)

"I can't see towny intent if I don't know they're town already"(uhh... wtf? Kinda a high bar you're setting there. Also, do you know 15337's alignment? If not, how can you see towny intent there? Nope. Just no. All of this is crap.)

"announcing a cop target is awful" (from what I can tell, the crux of the argument here is that targeting Ex is SOOOO sub-optimal it is the only case where mafia might not roleblock. Like it is such a bad play that mafia doesn't care if someone does it. Almost as if it is a total waste of the cop shot.. hmm...

giving the target or not really doesn't affect anything (as long as it isn't the worst possible choice?), if mafia has a roleblock and 15337 is town, they'd probably use it on them anyways. So stating the target is moot, all that matters to mafia is who has the shot)

"town wouldn't want to elim without looking first" (with unlimited cop shots, sure. But we don't have thst, so wasting one on the host is just bad play. What do you expect to learn and why fo you think it would affect anything? I didn't want to elim Ex because I thought he was "somehow mafia" I wanted to elim him because I thought it'd be fun to see what happens, which is still the case regardless of if a cop shot says "mafia" or "not mafia". I don't think we have to elim the host to win. so what info are you actually expecting to gain with this and what would it do to the gamestate? because I see it as purely wasting literally an extremely powerful and beneficial shot... which as you agree is suboptimal, and thus anti-town.)

"tomorrow" (yes, I'm not going to tie my hands all game just to stop you from doing something wifely suboptimal. Shoting Ex is a bad idea in either case though and you literally know it, you admitted it is the suboptimal play.)

If 15337 and Minish are town, town deserves a loss on this one. I'm done arguing with them, so I think I'm just going to ignore those slots and play as if we never got a chop shot tonight.