Zelda's biggest sin/mistake

[Kerest]

I was so young at the time I wouldn't have known, but I've never came across anything suggesting that OoT was recieved negatively when it first released.

Wasn't by critics, but I know a lot of players I talked with hated the game.

Are you sure? OOT was universally loved by critics and players alike as far as I am aware. It sold great too. I know you said it 'managed' its sales but 'managed' would imply it struggled after the highs of previous entries. This is not the case. It reality it exceeded all Zelda's before it with the N64 version selling better than the original LoZ's 6millionish on the NES, Zelda 2's 4 millionish on the NES (that's the one people didn't like) and then of course ALTTP's 4 millionish on the SNES. Many people were introduced to Zelda with OOT, and mechanics borrowed from it have been used in almost all 3D games ever since. It's always been seen as revolutionary and the greatest game of all time. Consistently topping polls.

It's been a sin to criticize OOT and I don't remember encountering anyone who has said they actually don't like it apart from complaints of it being too hard. I wouldn't say Nintendo mismanaged the handling of its publicity because everyone loved it. The only mismanagement I would say is not capitalising more on it and waiting until 2006 to make a true spiritual successor.

You and I might have run in very different communities, as I remember a lot of hate being directed at OoT. There were a lot of people who vowed to not buy another Zelda game after it, and in general they didn't for quite a few years. It doesn't help that this was also the N64 era, which was a much-reviled system by many video game developers, and thus many gamers who wanted a variety of gaming options had to abandon Nintendo anyway. And, in any case, sales figures do back it up; OoT did very well, but the games that followed did poorly even when they were on systems much more favorably received.

And, yes, NoA did bungle it. I talked on another thread about NoA's attempt to say that the Links from OoT, ALttP, and LoZ were all the same person. NoJ generally handled it better, but as you can imagine at least some of the backlash OoT suffered was because people were refusing to accept the "official" timeline as being real. I know of a few fan timelines that simply ruled OoT as non-canonical due to this. Given that this was prior to the easy access to Japanese sources we currently enjoy, it wasn't as easy to correct the mistake back then.

Whether or not OoT did well critically doesn't really matter; the sales records of the series reflect as well that OoT was the turning point into a downward spiral for the series, seeing game after game do worse over time until Twilight Princess came along.

Also, whether or not OoT succeeded the Zeldas before it doesn't really matter as much; any game with the amount of hype and expectation that OoT was facing prior to release would have done better than its predecessors at the time. Keep in mind the internet was still in its infancy at the period, so there wasn't the modern forewarning that could sink a game in place. By the time the complaints would have spread, most of the sales would already have been made.

If you factor in that backlash, Nintendo's lack of a spiritual successor to OoT makes a lot of sense; they were trying to save the series from what had been received poorly, often through focusing on more traditional gameplay. Also likely why Wind Waker is so different; it was attempting to do 3D Zelda right on a new system with hopes that trying to avoid some of their prior mistakes would fix the problem. And, well, the sales show it didn't... probably because the mistakes were not the game itself.

Notably Twilight Princess, the game that ended the descent of the Zelda series, also shared a lot of similarities to another game that was highly popular and, among many players at the time, still well-received: A Link to the Past. TP may be a gameplay spiritual successor to OoT, but in story it is a spiritual successor to ALttP.

This should also explain why ALttP got a sequel (ALBT) after so many years of lying dormant and heavily influenced several games afterward. Skyward Sword borrowed the sword upgrade mechanic from ALttP to be the story behind how the Master Sword was forged to begin with, Tri Force Heroes is somewhat based on ALttP, and BotW both borrows the upgrade mechanic and the world map.

Basically, Nintendo's strategy from Twilight Princess and on seems to be relying heavily on ALttP nostalgia to redeem the OoT gameplay mechanics. Despite the fact that, if what I said about it being purely NoA's fault, it's most likely not necessary.

 

[el :BeoWolf:]

As much as I like the timeline it's probably one of Nintendo's biggest mistake. It killed a huge part of creativity that comes from the fans. The many internet threads, videos and discussion slowed down to a crawl if not entirely stopped. Even if there are attempts at a timeline it's just not the same. BotW tries to remedy this by being so far removed from the timeline that it functions as a reboot of sorts. Perhaps future zelda games will only use BotW as a reference point for a new timeline and let fans theorize on the details.

 

[thePlinko]

Now imagine windwaker had a horse instead of a boat. It would have played exactly the same, the only difference between it and other games is that windwaker had a different atmosphere, and it actually had stuff in the overworld, unlike TP.

I think you misunderstood me (my fault, I didn’t write that well) yes Twilight Princess sold well, I’m saying that there is a reason that not a single game since has used that art style. You say BotW did, but that’s simply incorrect. BotW was cell shaded, and actually had color.

The point wasn’t the sales of the toon games, the point is that they still sold well, at least in comparison to games outside of the series. Obviously people like the toon style, or they wouldn’t have sold at all. I don’t think that windwaker itself was the reason it sold poorly. Remember, WW was on the (at the time) worst selling Nintendo control ever, while TP was not only on the best selling console ever period, but was ALSO on the GameCube.


The lore in tp was not developed at all. It added in things that were never a thing prior, or have never been a thing since. Yes other games have done this, but nowhere close to the extent TP did, and at least they were contained to themselves. TP added in a NEW DIMENSION, one that was not only integral to the plot, but made as if it had always been a thing, which is well and good when it’s referenced elsewhere in the series, like skyloft. But the twilight realm isnt.

No, Midna was not well written in the slightest. Like I said, she’s just an incredibly cliché character. I think YOU are letting nostalgia cloud your vision of other characters, as you have yet to list an example of non-cliché character development.

 

[Spirit]

TP added in a NEW DIMENSION, one that was not only integral to the plot, but made as if it had always been a thing, which is well and good when it’s referenced elsewhere in the series, like skyloft. But the twilight realm isnt.

Where else is Skyloft mentioned?

 

[thePlinko]

Where else is Skyloft mentioned?

All the way back in LttP, I believe in the intro as well as the manual, as well as every Hylian crest depicting the bird.

 

[thePlinko]

So the Zelda series has never really gotten the story part exactly right, imo. But TP is by no means bad in this aspect. You're saying they crammed things that didn't exist prior to that game, but every game has done this, not just TP. The Light Spirits are exclusive to TP and are minor deities that are easily dismissable. The Minish Cap as well as the Oracle games had the oracles, Skyward Sword had the dragons, Wind Waker had the minor wind gods, and just like the Light Spirits from TP, those characters which were important to the respective games they were in are now cast aside and have never been seen again. You bring up the city in the sky, well what happened to Skyloft? What happened to the Shadow Temple? Every Zelda game has elements that are unique to it alone and that never do get expanded on in later games.

I kind of what to hear you elaborate on why you think the characters in TP are garbage.

Well I agree with you for the most part; however, none of the games do it to the extent of TP. Yes cyclos and zephos are never really mentioned again in the series, but they are nowhere near as integral to the story as the light spirits, the literal guardians of each respective area that, as a main part of the quest, you have to rescue and hear their sob story about criminals and magic mcguffins that came straight from Hot Topic.
As for the oracles, these are mortal beings you are talking about, if there is no record in games of previous links, specifically this one, then of corse there is going to be no record of the oracles.


The characters in TP could have been done well, but they weren’t. First you have the *****y, cliché imp Midna, I think I have gone on enough about her. Then there is Zant. Good lord I hate Zant. He is the epitome of a character that is evil just for the sake of being evil. This CAN be done well, like with skull kid and Majora, but it’s not. The Ganondorf in TP is the exact same as Zant, but worse, and with less screen time. Zelda did **** all, other than sacrifice herself. The ordon children, with one exception, are just annoying. Illia once again COULD have done well, except the very beginning of the game made her out to be someone I should dislike, and I have a hard time caring about her mandatory sidequest. Telma is just creepy, the secret society people were just overall worthless, and the clowns were just tingle done poorly. It doesn’t help that the art style makes almost every one of them look butt-ugly, especially telma and the clowns.

There are exceptions. I do like the Zora prince, he had a good arc and character development, it’s just a shame he has very little relevance to the story. The other good character is the one, the only, the entrepreneurial baby Malo. This guy rocks! The only thing is that he just doesn’t fit in with the rest of the game very well.

 

[Dio]

Now imagine windwaker had a horse instead of a boat. It would have played exactly the same, the only difference between it and other games is that windwaker had a different atmosphere, and it actually had stuff in the overworld, unlike TP.

A spiritual successor has the same feel of what it is the spiritual successor of. WW did not feel like OOT.2 However TP did.

I think you misunderstood me (my fault, I didn’t write that well) yes Twilight Princess sold well, I’m saying that there is a reason that not a single game since has used that art style. You say BotW did, but that’s simply incorrect. BotW was cell shaded, and actually had color.

The reason is Nintendo's stupidity. We were promised SS would feature TP's art style yet they gave us the gaudy and ugly SS look instead. Many were dissapointed by this and the poor sales of SS compared with TP reflect this sentiment. BoTW does not feature the same art style as WW or TP and I never said that. It just doesnt have the chibi look of WW which made those games sell worse than they should.

The point wasn’t the sales of the toon games, the point is that they still sold well, at least in comparison to games outside of the series. Obviously people like the toon style, or they wouldn’t have sold at all. I don’t think that windwaker itself was the reason it sold poorly. Remember, WW was on the (at the time) worst selling Nintendo control ever, while TP was not only on the best selling console ever period, but was ALSO on the GameCube.

Not as many people like the chibi toon style. That's why TP sold better than WW, and the other toon games. The DS sold better than the N64 don't forget and none of the toon games sold as well as OOT either.

The lore in tp was not developed at all. It added in things that were never a thing prior, or have never been a thing since. Yes other games have done this, but nowhere close to the extent TP did, and at least they were contained to themselves. TP added in a NEW DIMENSION, one that was not only integral to the plot, but made as if it had always been a thing, which is well and good when it’s referenced elsewhere in the series, like skyloft. But the twilight realm isnt.

That would be a fault of the later games for not paying attention to the established lore. and not TP for adding new and interesting dimensions. Let us not forget that the ancient sages forged the master sword as is quoted in multiple games yet SS shows something completely different. If you take the series as a whole it is majorly inconsistent and if you take each game separately TP had the most fleshed out backstory and lore.

No, Midna was not well written in the slightest. Like I said, she’s just an incredibly cliché character. I think YOU are letting nostalgia cloud your vision of other characters, as you have yet to list an example of non-cliché character development.

It's not my job to list examples of non cliché character development as the burden of proof lies with you to show she is cliché seeing as you made that claim. And seeing as there is no other character in Zelda that has the screen time and the level of development that she has you shouldn't be able to do it.

 

[thePlinko]

A spiritual successor has the same feel of what it is the spiritual successor of. WW did not feel like OOT.2 However TP did.


The reason is Nintendo's stupidity. We were promised SS would feature TP's art style yet they gave us the gaudy and ugly SS look instead. Many were dissapointed by this and the poor sales of SS compared with TP reflect this sentiment. BoTW does not feature the same art style as WW or TP and I never said that. It just doesnt have the chibi look of WW which made those games sell worse than they should.




Not as many people like the chibi toon style. That's why TP sold better than WW, and the other toon games. The DS sold better than the N64 don't forget and none of the toon games sold as well as OOT either.



That would be a fault of the later games for not paying attention to the established lore. and not TP for adding new and interesting dimensions. Let us not forget that the ancient sages forged the master sword as is quoted in multiple games yet SS shows something completely different. If you take the series as a whole it is majorly inconsistent and if you take each game separately TP had the most fleshed out backstory and lore.



It's not my job to list examples of non cliché character development as the burden of proof lies with you to show she is cliché seeing as you made that claim. And seeing as there is no other character in Zelda that has the screen time and the level of development that she has you shouldn't be able to do it.

No, a spiritual successor just have to have similar gameplay, something windwaker had.

When were we promised that? I have never heard anyone say that the watercolor colors of skyward sword looked worse than the ****-stained color palate of twilight princess. Also you literally said that tp and BotW had similar art styles.


The point isn’t how well they sold compared to other games. The DS games didn’t do as well, not because they were sub-par, but because you are comparing them to Ocarina of Time. The point is that they still sell well, not because of their art style, but because it’s a zelda game

Ok, later games don’t pay attention to established lore, but that doesn’t excuse TP from completely ignoring the lore of the previous 12 games. And are you seriously trying to tell me that the standalone story of twilight princess was anywhere near as good as majoras mask?

Yes, it is not your job to list reasons as to why Midna is such a goddess of a character, but if you don’t, you are effectively validating by remarks further. And while yes, she has more screen time than most other characters, that doesn’t necessarily equate to good character development. Just look at windwaker Ganondorf, no matter what you may think about him, there is no arguing that he is generally considered the better Ganondorf, and he has a total of 5 minutes of screen time. For that matter there are plenty of characters who have just as much if not more development than her. Groose, fi, SS impa, 5 of the 6 sages from OoT, most of the sages from LBW, all of the champions, spirit zelda and the lokomos, linebeck, tatl, Marin, and literally everyone from majoras mask just to name a few. At least these characters are likeable in some regard. Like I said in a previous post, Midna just talked down to others, and not even in a comedic way like linebeck or groose. Sure about halfway through she had a change of heart, but nothing really changed, she still was a ***** to everyone, just slightly less towards link.

Also I just want to reassure everyone that I absolutely love TP, just because it’s my least favorite Zelda doesn’t mean I hate it, if I had to choose between every Xbox game ever and twilight princess, I’d choose twilight princesses in a heartbeat. Just in case anyone got the wrong idea about me.

 

[Dio]

No, a spiritual successor just have to have similar gameplay, something windwaker had

A spiritual successor would have a similar atmosphere and feel as well which WW doesn't.

When were we promised that? I have never heard anyone say that the watercolor colors of skyward sword looked worse than the ****-stained color palate of twilight princess. Also you literally said that tp and BotW had similar art styles.

It was during the development process. I believe it was Aounuma who said the game was to use the same style as Twilight Princess. Many people hate the art style of Skyward Sword. I think you are new here but I've been here forever so have heard the opinions of many Zelda fans and that look isn't very popular.

I don't believe I said that TP uses a similar style to BoTW so if you could find me a direct quote of what I said.

The point isn’t how well they sold compared to other games. The DS games didn’t do as well, not because they were sub-par, but because you are comparing them to Ocarina of Time. The point is that they still sell well, not because of their art style, but because it’s a zelda game

Yes that is the point. The sales indicate how people like the look of the title. All Zelda games have inflated review scores so that isn't a big factor and the games will always sell to the large number of hardcore fans. But the rest of the people who buy or won't buy are those who will be swayed by how the game looks most of all and the chibi and ugly SS style puts millions of people off as is demonstrated by the sales figures.

TP received a standing ovation when shown off in 2004, that is how much people liked the look of it.

Yes, it is not your job to list reasons as to why Midna is such a goddess of a character, but if you don’t, you are effectively validating by remarks further. And while yes, she has more screen time than most other characters, that doesn’t necessarily equate to good character development. Just look at windwaker Ganondorf, no matter what you may think about him, there is no arguing that he is generally considered the better Ganondorf, and he has a total of 5 minutes of screen time. For that matter there are plenty of characters who have just as much if not more development than her. Groose, fi, SS impa, 5 of the 6 sages from OoT, most of the sages from LBW, all of the champions, spirit zelda and the lokomos, linebeck, tatl, Marin, and literally everyone from majoras mask just to name a few. At least these characters are likeable in some regard. Like I said in a previous post, Midna just talked down to others, and not even in a comedic way like linebeck or groose. Sure about halfway through she had a change of heart, but nothing really changed, she still was a ***** to everyone, just slightly less towards link.

I have already pointed out that no other character in Zelda has the development she does. No other character has the screen time to have the same level of development. Her personality and temperament change slowly throughout the course of the entire game which no other character does. Groose to an extent does change temperament but has less lines and screen time than Midna who is a constant companion in Twilight Princess. If you don't like what they did with her that's ok but there is no denying she has the most screen time and development which is better than less screen time and development which all other characters have. Therefore she is the best.

 

[DarkestLink]

Aside from the overworld--which was definitely a step in the wrong direction--I don't remember OoT getting much hate at all. By what metric could you argue it was hated? tWW sold poorly, SS and BOTW scored significantly lower with users, but OoT is the third best selling game (with OoT 3DS being in the Top 5 as well), and has done well with both critics and users.

All the way back in LttP, I believe in the intro as well as the manual, as well as every Hylian crest depicting the bird.

At this point you're clearly grasping at straws...

Now imagine windwaker had a horse instead of a boat. It would have played exactly the same

So imagine if tWW changed the core aspect of its overworld gameplay and basically wasn't tWW anymore?

 

[thePlinko]

Aside from the overworld--which was definitely a step in the wrong direction--I don't remember OoT getting much hate at all. By what metric could you argue it was hated? tWW sold poorly, SS and BOTW scored significantly lower with users, but OoT is the third best selling game (with OoT 3DS being in the Top 5 as well), and has done well with both critics and users.



At this point you're clearly grasping at straws...



So imagine if tWW changed the core aspect of its overworld gameplay and basically wasn't tWW anymore?

Look back at LttP, it has many references to the existence of an island in the sky.


The point is that it would play exactly the same

A spiritual successor would have a similar atmosphere and feel as well which WW doesn't.



It was during the development process. I believe it was Aounuma who said the game was to use the same style as Twilight Princess. Many people hate the art style of Skyward Sword. I think you are new here but I've been here forever so have heard the opinions of many Zelda fans and that look isn't very popular.

I don't believe I said that TP uses a similar style to BoTW so if you could find me a direct quote of what I said.



Yes that is the point. The sales indicate how people like the look of the title. All Zelda games have inflated review scores so that isn't a big factor and the games will always sell to the large number of hardcore fans. But the rest of the people who buy or won't buy are those who will be swayed by how the game looks most of all and the chibi and ugly SS style puts millions of people off as is demonstrated by the sales figures.

TP received a standing ovation when shown off in 2004, that is how much people liked the look of it.



I have already pointed out that no other character in Zelda has the development she does. No other character has the screen time to have the same level of development. Her personality and temperament change slowly throughout the course of the entire game which no other character does. Groose to an extent does change temperament but has less lines and screen time than Midna who is a constant companion in Twilight Princess. If you don't like what they did with her that's ok but there is no denying she has the most screen time and development which is better than less screen time and development which all other characters have. Therefore she is the best.

Well apparently your version of spiritual successor and my version of spiritual successor are completely different

I will have to look into it. As for me being new, you are right, I am a new account, but I have been viewing this site for a good year now, and while I think people on here definitely tend to hate on SS, everywhere else I go I see people praising the art style as one of the better ones, even if they don’t like the game itself.

Like I said I’m new so I don’t exactly know how to pull up separate quotes so I will post another reply with it.

EDIT: ok my apologies I read your post wrong and didn’t see the “and” in between since and until

While yes, art styles do have something to do with sales, but they are not the only reason people will buy a zelda game, maybe you hate the art style of majoras mask but love the 3-day system, or maybe you can’t stand the trains in ST, but love the toon style. There are many more factors than just looks, and judging a game exclusively on the art style is incredibly shallow.

At the time, TP got the standing ovation just because at the time that’s what people wanted to see, nowadays the want for this edgy emo bullcrap has gone down drastically, which is why these days generally TP is held at the same level of praise as WW.

While I already agreed with you on the screen time for Midna, I also pointed out that screen time does not equal development, especially since half of the time she is on screen all she is doing is riding around on you or standing next to you watching things happen. The amount of time it takes her to change makes no difference to the fact that she has the exact same development as groose and the others I have mentioned. Not to mention she has the same amount of screen time as tatl and once again has the same cliché arc. A good example of better character development is anju and kafei, compared to Midna they had an increadibly short amount of screen time and have arguably more development, AND they aren’t cliché.

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

Wasn't by critics, but I know a lot of players I talked with hated the game.

I feel like you must have just came across people who made up a minority, even back when the game released. The sales of Ocarina of Time prove that it wasn't only well liked by critics, but the majority of fans as well. I can maybe see some validity in your claim of backlash from Nintendo fumbling around with questions about the timeline, but I don't think every zelda fan was interested in the timeline back then.

 

[Kerest]

All the way back in LttP, I believe in the intro as well as the manual, as well as every Hylian crest depicting the bird.

No, ALttP does not have references to Skyloft in its story. At least, not in the original release. Maybe in one of the remakes.

I feel like you must have just came across people who made up a minority, even back when the game released. The sales of Ocarina of Time prove that it wasn't only well liked by critics, but the majority of fans as well. I can maybe see some validity in your claim of backlash from Nintendo fumbling around with questions about the timeline, but I don't think every zelda fan was interested in the timeline back then.

The sales would only prove that in the modern, post-internet era. Keep in mind OoT was back before the internet became the dominating force it is today; there were a lot more releases back then that were reviled by the fans but still were commercial successes because it simply was a lot harder to preview content back then.Other than the official releases of information, you often had only local word of mouth and the rumor mill. The 2000s saw a lot of changes, including a complete change to video game sales figures to where they more reflected actual reception of the product rather than the hype leading up to it. That is why, in the case of OoT, you have to rely on the sales figures of games to come after while with TP you can rely on its own sales figures as indicative.

I know, it's counter-intuitive, but that's what happens when you have a dynamic change in the middle of your data. The internet changed the video game industry quite a bit.

People were, quite simply, unhappy with the LoZ series after OoT. The sales figures of the games to follow reflect that.

 

[Dio]

Yes our ideas must differ on what spiritual successor means. But now that you know what mine is you understand why TP meets my definition and why WW wouldn't

While yes, art styles do have something to do with sales, but they are not the only reason people will buy a zelda game, maybe you hate the art style of majoras mask but love the 3-day system, or maybe you can’t stand the trains in ST, but love the toon style. There are many more factors than just looks, and judging a game exclusively on the art style is incredibly shallow.

Shallow it may bebe b judging a game by how it looks is what happens in a lot of cases. Considering the core gameplay of Zelda is largely the same with a few exceptions, the way a game looks plays a huge part in the sales.

At the time, TP got the standing ovation just because at the time that’s what people wanted to see, nowadays the want for this edgy emo bullcrap has gone down drastically, which is why these days generally TP is held at the same level of praise as WW.

It may be the case that views have softened towards WW's style and the TP look for Zelda does not mean everything. However at the time these games released it meant a lot. This thread is Zelda's biggest sin and its biggest sin was introducing that chibi WW style in 2002. I have pointed out that it had a great effect on sales and although the series seems to have recovered I am sure that Zelda would be even bigger to this day had it stuck with the more traditional aesthetic.

While I already agreed with you on the screen time for Midna, I also pointed out that screen time does not equal development, especially since half of the time she is on screen all she is doing is riding around on you or standing next to you watching things happen. The amount of time it takes her to change makes no difference to the fact that she has the exact same development as groose and the others I have mentioned. Not to mention she has the same amount of screen time as tatl and once again has the same cliché arc. A good example of better character development is anju and kafei, compared to Midna they had an increadibly short amount of screen time and have arguably more development, AND they aren’t cliché.

Midna's arc is not cliché as no other character in Zelda has the same characterisation or motives. Midna is at first indifferent to link and the humans and gradually grows to realise her worldview is wrong and that the humans mean just as much as her own people. When Midna is almost fatally killed and Link rescues her she returns the favour by making him human again. She feels grateful for this and finally sees Link as an equal. And in the desert she shares the backstory of her people even though she is clearly ashamed to. Then she asks for his help. Not demands anymore which shows a further change in her character. Towards the end she has clearly grown to love link and sacrifices their companionship for the greater good even though she clearly is deeply saddened by this.

Tatl does not develop like this, has no backstory she is ashamed of. She was the skull kids friend and he went bad. So she helps link in order to save her brother. link and Tatls relationship never goes though any gradual changes at all.

Fi has a sudden change at the end but is the same throughout the whole quest

Navi is the same throughout the entire game

King of Red lions is the same throughout. There is a plot twist and he is revealed to be the king but he behaves the same before and after

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

People were, quite simply, unhappy with the LoZ series after OoT. The sales figures of the games to follow reflect that.

But my point is it doesn't seem like they were unhappy with the series because they disliked OoT.

Majora's Mask was released towards the end of the N64's lifespan, it only had a sort of cult following, and the reason some fans disliked it was because it was a very different kind of Zelda game, and it was considered a hard game back then.

Wind Waker was disliked because of its art style, it looked cartoony and childish. What people wanted at that time was more of something like OoT. In the year 2000 a zelda tech demo was released that looked similar to OoT.



In 2001 when WW was revealed, there was outrage because it wasn't more similar to OoT. TP, which was finally the game more like OoT, was well recieved.

Fans were unhappy in the years following OoT because they wanted more of what OoT was. But again, I wasn't there, Idk how fans of Zelda kept in touch prior to the internet. But it is just hard for me to imagine the fans all gathering one friday evening to trash on OoT back in 98.