Breath of the Wild When are you ok with the game ‘taking over’, such as cutscenes, linear narrative, many gated areas?

[Dogzilla]

I’d add in that the choices of responses in dialogues are another ‘taking over’ by the game. In other games it’s simply yes or no answers throughout, which is limited in some ways but you feel less of the author’s mindset in other ways

 

[MW7]

I don't feel quite as strongly as I used to about it, but I think my answer is still no. I play Zelda games over and over, and the beginnings of most games really bothered me because you are going through a few tasks, exposition, and cutscenes before really getting to gameplay. I think some things actually evolved in a way I enjoy less. For example if you want to know the backstory of Legend of Zelda through Link's Awakening, the basic opening of the plot is explained before the start menu. Starting with Ocarina of Time you have to go through text boxes and cutscenes every time you begin a new game. It took a few more releases to allow for skippable cutscenes. This is one of several little design choices BotW made that I really appreciated. You can get to gameplay really quickly, and the first four shrines are like tutorial dungeons. I like tutorial dungeons much more than tutorials.

A linear narrative doesn't bother me, but doesn't necessarily have to conflict with nonlinear gameplay. I think a common ground would be putting game into nonlinear sections and the major plot points occur at the end of the sections. For example in the second half of Skyward Sword, there's not a compelling reason to require the dungeon order of Ancient Cistern, Sandship, and Fire Sanctuary, and I would have switched it up (you only would have needed a couple very small item requirement adjustments). Similarly in Ocarina of Time, the boulders blocking Zora's River are truly pointless because you don't even need bombs to do anything with the Zora's after that. The major linear plot point occurs once you obtain all three spiritual stones, and the order you obtain them doesn't matter for the story. Gameplay wise it would be beneficial because you could get the boomerang sooner.

Related to gated areas I discovered Super Metroid very recently, and I think I would like to see some of the gameplay spirit in Zelda in which there is an intended way to do things and alternative ways to do things that tend to be more challenging. I like games that are approachable but reward skilled gameplay. For example in Ocarina of Time the Lens of Truth and Zora's Tunic are useful items, but you can skip them (and others without glitches) once you know what you are doing. I think in some ways BotW did do a course correction in this manner of making there be multiple ways of doing things of which some are more challenging. For example in Skyward Sword the Fireshield Earrings act as a barrier to reaching the Fire Sanctuary even though there is a separate potion that allows you to avoid taking damage. I assumed that you could take a guardian potion plus instead and just go through the hot area and skip the Fireshield Earrings. I found out that this isn't allowed for some reason, and the game wasted my time by including this barrier because it really didn't need to exist. In BotW right away it's clear that you have multiple options for going through treacherous terrain. In the cold for example you can wear warm clothes, have a lit torch, take a type of potion, or just take the damage and recover it somehow.

In summary, cutscenes are fine but I want to be able to be able to skip them, a linear narrative is okay but I think it shouldn't compromise the gameplay, and most gated areas are horrific and need to never return. The trick I want BotW 2 to pull off is have an open world but bring back traditional Zelda items and dungeons along with it.

 

[Dogzilla]

I don't feel quite as strongly as I used to about it, but I think my answer is still no. I play Zelda games over and over, and the beginnings of most games really bothered me because you are going through a few tasks, exposition, and cutscenes before really getting to gameplay. I think some things actually evolved in a way I enjoy less. For example if you want to know the backstory of Legend of Zelda through Link's Awakening, the basic opening of the plot is explained before the start menu. Starting with Ocarina of Time you have to go through text boxes and cutscenes every time you begin a new game. It took a few more releases to allow for skippable cutscenes. This is one of several little design choices BotW made that I really appreciated. You can get to gameplay really quickly, and the first four shrines are like tutorial dungeons. I like tutorial dungeons much more than tutorials.

A linear narrative doesn't bother me, but doesn't necessarily have to conflict with nonlinear gameplay. I think a common ground would be putting game into nonlinear sections and the major plot points occur at the end of the sections. For example in the second half of Skyward Sword, there's not a compelling reason to require the dungeon order of Ancient Cistern, Sandship, and Fire Sanctuary, and I would have switched it up (you only would have needed a couple very small item requirement adjustments). Similarly in Ocarina of Time, the boulders blocking Zora's River are truly pointless because you don't even need bombs to do anything with the Zora's after that. The major linear plot point occurs once you obtain all three spiritual stones, and the order you obtain them doesn't matter for the story. Gameplay wise it would be beneficial because you could get the boomerang sooner.

Related to gated areas I discovered Super Metroid very recently, and I think I would like to see some of the gameplay spirit in Zelda in which there is an intended way to do things and alternative ways to do things that tend to be more challenging. I like games that are approachable but reward skilled gameplay. For example in Ocarina of Time the Lens of Truth and Zora's Tunic are useful items, but you can skip them (and others without glitches) once you know what you are doing. I think in some ways BotW did do a course correction in this manner of making there be multiple ways of doing things of which some are more challenging. For example in Skyward Sword the Fireshield Earrings act as a barrier to reaching the Fire Sanctuary even though there is a separate potion that allows you to avoid taking damage. I assumed that you could take a guardian potion plus instead and just go through the hot area and skip the Fireshield Earrings. I found out that this isn't allowed for some reason, and the game wasted my time by including this barrier because it really didn't need to exist. In BotW right away it's clear that you have multiple options for going through treacherous terrain. In the cold for example you can wear warm clothes, have a lit torch, take a type of potion, or just take the damage and recover it somehow.

In summary, cutscenes are fine but I want to be able to be able to skip them, a linear narrative is okay but I think it shouldn't compromise the gameplay, and most gated areas are horrific and need to never return. The trick I want BotW 2 to pull off is have an open world but bring back traditional Zelda items and dungeons along with it.

So, following your preferences, how would you feel if botw2 was the same layout as botw (and all fully and immediately accessible), except the entrances to dungeons were narrative-gated so that they only appear after certain plot points in the story?

 

[Mikey the Moblin]

the boulders blocking Zora's River are truly pointless

this is like saying metroidvania gameplay in general is pointless, which is a weird take

and somehow you go on to mention that you've been playing super metroid and you didn't notice the parallels between zelda design and metroidvania design...

 

[MW7]

So, following your preferences, how would you feel if botw2 was the same layout as botw (and all fully and immediately accessible), except the entrances to dungeons were narrative-gated so that they only appear after certain plot points in the story?

I think that would be pretty cool. I would prefer that at least some variation in dungeon order is possible. For example it could be staggered like major plot point - dungeon 1 - major point plot - dungeons 2 and 3 - major plot point - dungeons 4, 5, and 6 - major plot point - dungeons 7, 8, and 9 - major plot point - dungeon 10. The areas where there is choice of what to do next can also have story elements that don't necessarily have a set order. If dungeons 4, 5, and 6 involve helping the Zoras, Gorons, and Ritos, then the story might involve resolving an issue with those specific regions but completing all three dungeons also unlocks something in the larger narrative.

this is like saying metroidvania gameplay in general is pointless, which is a weird take

and somehow you go on to mention that you've been playing super metroid and you didn't notice the parallels between zelda design and metroidvania design...

I think I'm saying the opposite but okay. Meaning that BotW already course-corrected from the style Skyward Sword had. I'd say Ocarina of Time has some Metroidvania elements but could have done more, and BotW went back in that direction after Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword were heading away from that style.

Edit to clarify - I'm saying the boulders in Ocarina of Time were something that if removed, would have added to the branching paths and ultimately improved the game even though the game already has branching paths and has multiple ways of doing things.

 

[Vanessa28]

If it's only in the beginning and for so called tutorials at the start of a game I say coolio. But when you progress and you keep on getting interrupted or you have to wait every damn time you do something because of loading time it can get pretty annoying. I don't mind when important facts are in play though.

 

[If (Fi's brother)]

a lot of people seem to have this conception that linearity is strictly worse than nonlinearity (see Mark Brown's "Boss Keys" youtube series... or don't because they're pretty flawed conceptually)
linear and nonlinear progression both have their advantages and disadvantages, which I touched on in my "What's So Great About BOTW?" blog. Knowing those differences, a good dev will step in when necessary to keep momentum going and keep the player feeling like they're progressing. I think an example of this done badly is Death Stranding, where the opening gameplay is constantly interrupted by 20+ minute cutscenes. There are a few moments where zelda in particular (not just skyward sword, though people love to rag on it for no real reason) will have camera movements or the helper character point out something totally obvious, and breaking the flow of gameplay in the process. It's pretty minor though so I'm okay with it when it happens (not just in skyward sword, but twilight princess and oot as well)
Dark Souls does this really well, as the most significant moments will lead to smooth transitions between gameplay and cutscenes, and the cutscenes are always really fun to watch without getting too long, but not all bosses even have introductory cutscenes, so the flow of gameplay in dark souls games are very good

I've seen the boss keys where it shows different dungeon designs. It seems people these days don't have the attention span. A product of bad education the last 30 years. We are compromised and our voting shows it as we allow back door people to keep us into the hands of the globalists which I won't get into in order to not hit any censorship bombs.

Anyways a lot of the tutorial cutscenes were pretty immature and unnecessary. I think they should all be skippable at the very least. SS appears to be the lowest bar Nintendo has done yet. "Do not pull down on the safety bar, please. I will lower it for you."