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Spoiler What New Kind of Zelda Game I'd Like to See.

Joined
Nov 22, 2013
Location
Portland, OR
When I am talking about what type of Zelda game I want to see at some point, I don't mean what type I hope Zelda U to be, because based on the little information we have on the game, I already speculate that Zelda U is not the type I envisioned. No, what I am talking about is a whole new Zelda game that I can only hope to see come out in the future, as I think it would be a great addition to the series, but of course, these are only my hopes and dreams and are unlikely to become a reality. I'll start off simple and go into more details afterwards to make things easier.

BASIC CONCEPT:
The type of Zelda game I want to see is sort of an 'in-between phase' for two different Zelda eras, specifically in this case, a post-Ocarina of Time and pre-Wind Waker era. What I mean by an 'in-between phase' is a time where things are being built. I've noticed with every new Zelda game that comes out, we are simply dropped into these new worlds filled with all these people, dungeons, and civilizations but with no real explanation as to where they all came from, or we are given small bits of history on the making of the world we play in. What I want to see is a game where we are the history. Unless I'm really to assume that the Tower of the Gods was just dropped into the world by the gods, we have to assume some group of people made it and I want to be there for its completion.

THE PROBLEMS:
Now, because I envisioned placing this game in an era post-Ocarina of Time and pre-Wind Waker, it would require a completely new story element to be used for the first time; Link would essentially have to fail in the end. Yes, our Hero of Time would actually have to fail in order for this game to make sense where I've placed it because there is no getting around the fact that post-Ocarina of Time, Ganondorf was defeated and sealed away, but at some point pre-Wind Waker he was resurrected. The only problem I can foresee Nintendo having implementing this story element would be that all of the Zelda games are essentially standalone games, meaning despite the obvious connections between the games, you could play any of the games by themselves and still understand what's going on, but if this element were implemented into the story then that would make this game the prequel to Wind Waker and you would likely need to play both the prequel and Wind Waker to really complete the story. Despite this minor setback, I don't think having Link fail in the end would be such a far fetched idea. We have the Hero is Defeated timeline branching off of Ocarina of Time if Link were to fail in defeating Ganondorf, however by game logic, this timeline technically never happens considering you don't beat Ocarina of Time until you defeat Ganondorf. What I mean is while yes, story logic says that when you theoretically lose to Ganondorf in Ocarina of Time, it sets the Hero is Defeated timeline into motion, but as most video games are, you will keep playing and playing and playing until you eventually defeat Ganondorf.

Another problem to note, is the story in the beginning of WW tells of the events of OoT when The Hero of Time defeated Ganondorf and sealed him away, but when Ganondorf escaped again and the people of Hyrule prayed for The Hero of Time to return to save them, he didn't reappear. This is probably the biggest opposing factor to this game as it technically means there is no Link between OoT and WW, however there are two potential solutions to this problem. This could be the first game we don't play as Link, and instead we play as some other character who inevitably fails. Or, we can interpret the opening story in WW differently. When the opening story says:
The people believed that the Hero of Time would again come to save them... But the hero did not appear.
we can interpret that as no one saves them. Meaning we'd still play as a Link who attempts to save them, but still inevitably fails, which is why they say The Hero of Time didn't appear to save them. For simplicities sake, we'll continue on the assumption we're playing as Link.

THE QUESTIONS:
Back to the original idea, I think it would be great if we could see the Tower of the Gods being built, Hyrule Castle being frozen in time, who controlled the Forsaken Fortress prior to Ganondorf taking over, what happened to the Zoras and the Gorons, or even the decision being made to flood Hyrule. Now, my next thought after I came up with this idea was, "what would we do in this world?" I mean, what is the purpose of this game supposed to be? What dungeons could we explore in a pre-Wind Waker era? Who would inhabit this era? When does this era take place specifically?

POSSIBLE DUNGEONS:

Earth and Wind Temples:
Well, we know from Wind Wakers story that there indeed was an era post-OoT and pre-WW because of a few notable details in WW, the one that I immediately thought of first being the presence of a Wind Sage and Earth Sage, which are different from the original six Sages from OoT. What we know is that the previous Earth Sage in WW was definitely a Zora from a time before they were Rito, and that the previous Wind Sage was definitely a Kokiri from a time before they were Koroks. We also know that these temples played a role in the pre-WW era similar to the role they play in the WW era; they serve as a means for giving the Master Sword the power to defeat Ganondorf. Therefore, they can still be utilized as playable dungeons in this pre-WW era, so there's at least two dungeons down.

Tower of the Gods:
Obviously at this point, the Tower of the Gods isn't completed yet but for gameplays sake we can say that it would be completed at some point in this game, and could potentially become another (or even the final) dungeon in this game. We've seen this story element before in the Oracle games with Onox/Verans castle, so it's not completely unheard of.

Forsaken Fortress:
Another possible dungeon location we could explore would be the Forsaken Fortress prior to Ganondorf taking control of it. Perhaps it could play an even bigger role in this pre-WW era than it did in WW. In WW, the Forsaken Fortress didn't serve much of a 'divine purpose' so to speak, it was just a temporary base of operations for Ganondorf at the time. What I mean by it not serving a 'divine purpose' is that it didn't hold a similar purpose to that of the Tower of the Gods, or the Earth and Wind dungeons. Other than Aryll being imprisoned there, there is no real reason to go there. What I mean to say is, if the hero in WW were anyone other than Link, there would be no reason to go to the Forsaken Fortress. The hero would just need to collect and place the three goddess pearls, delve into the Tower of the Gods, find and reestablish power to the Master Sword, find the Triforce of Courage, and defeat Ganondorf. Perhaps in this pre-WW era the Forsaken Fortress would serve a more important purpose such as finding someone important to the story locked away in there *cough cough* Zelda *cough cough*. The Forsaken Fortress has that prison-like feel to it already what with the spotlights around the perimeter, the wall-mounted cannons, and the giant gates. The only problem with this is we don't exactly know what it's purpose was pre-WW, but in this case I'm going to assume it served a similar role as a prison.

The Temple of Time and Hyrule Castle:
The last two possible dungeons I can come up with at the moment, based on what we know from the WW story, is that Hyrule Castle and Temple of Time could play roles in this pre-WW game as dungeons. Whether or not the Temple of Time is playable as a dungeon in this game would be based on whether or not the Link we play as is the same Link from OoT, which I will get into more in a bit. If it is to be the same Link, then I don't see a reason for the Temple of Time to play a role because we would already have the Master Sword from the end of OoT. If it is however, a new Link, then the Temple of Time could play it's role again as the place where Link obtains the Master Sword. As for Hyrule Castle, it could also be another potential end-game dungeon for this game, as this game would end with Link at some point returning the Master Sword to it's pedestal in the Castle, freezing it in time. It could also play the role of being the place where the decision is made to flood Hyrule. While it was the gods "decision" to flood Hyrule, that doesn't necessarily mean it was them who flooded Hyrule. This could be the plot for the game, but I'll bring that up again later.

THE INHABITANTS:
Figuring out who inhabits this land is a difficult task as it depends on many differing factors, such as is this the same Link from OoT, or a new one entirely? Is this immediately after OoT, or right before WW? Probably the biggest factor which we have to deal with is who exactly survives the Great Flood? The people of Hyrule are instructed to flee to the mountaintops before Hyrule is completely flooded, but are we to assume that every single inhabitant of Hyrule could fit on the small, infrequent peaks of these mountains? It is difficult to understand this because the era in which WW takes place is long after Hyrule was flooded, to the point that
None remain who know.
We can, however, assume that because they have been reduced to small islands that their population likely fell due to the lack of land to inhabit. As I said before, it is difficult to narrow down inhabitants for this game, but not exactly impossible. There is evidence within WW and OoT that prove this pre-WW era would take place a considerably long time after OoT. What exactly is this evidence? Well, the most obvious evidence is that there is no Tower of the Gods in OoT, and a building of its magnitude would take a VERY long time to build. Another glaring piece of evidence to note is that the Deku True Sprout from the end of OoT is indeed the same Great Deku Tree from WW. Knowing this, a considerable amount of time would have to have passed between the ending of OoT and the beginning of WW in order for the TotG to have been built, and the Deku Tree Sprout to have grown. We can assume by these facts that we wouldn't be playing as the same Link from OoT.

King of Hyrule:
One of the only known survivors of this pre-WW era to our knowledge is King Daphnes Nohansen Hyrule, AKA The King of Red Lions. He could play a huge role in this game as he was imprisoned within Hyrule Castle when Hyrule was flooded. It would make sense that he would be in this game, as he could yet again be our faithful guide in this game, or we could even learn what he knows along with him. It should be noted that in WW, the KoRL obviously knows (almost exactly) what we have to do to defeat Ganondorf, almost as if he's dealt with this problem before, and maybe he has. Perhaps it is this pre-WW era that King Daphnes reigned over Hyrule during the resurrection of Ganondorf and he was there to witness the fall of his kingdom, perhaps it is even through him that the Gods decided to flood the kingdom.

The Great Deku Tree:
The only known survivor from the OoT era to our knowledge is The Great Deku Tree. The Great Deku Tree in WW is, as we know, the same Deku Tree Sprout from the previous Great Deku Tree in OoT, only many years matured. He could play a significant role in this game as a way of communicating the history of OoT to Link, and even set us out on our quest as his predecessor did before him.

Valoo the Sky Spirit:
Valoo the Sky Spirit is another potential inhabitant to this pre-WW era. Not much is known about Valoos history so this would be a great place to create some. It is theorized he is a descendant to Volvagia whom Link defeats in OoT, but as this isn't confirmed it's up to deliberation whether or not it serves a purpose in this game.

Jabun the Water Spirit:
Jabun the Water Spirit is thought to be the descendant of Jabu-Jabu the Water Spirit from OoT so he could indeed serve a purpose in this pre-WW era as well. In OoT, Jabu-Jabu served as a guardian over the Zora, however in WW there is a noticeable lack of Zora and instead in their place are their descendants, the flying Rito. Perhaps in this pre-WW era he will serve as his predecessor did as a guardian over the Zora but something will happen to change his purpose.

The Zora:
The Zora are the predecessors of the Rito tribe in WW, but we never get an explanation as to why they evolved into the Rito. It is assumed based on facts gained from other games such as Majoras Mask or the Oracle games that Zora can only inhabit waters with specific characteristics which could explain why they evolved to beings of flight. It's also thought that the gods forced their evolution as a means to keep them from discovering the sunken kingdom of Hyrule frozen in time below the surface, however the presence of the sentient creatures known as Fishmen sort of disprove this theory. Perhaps in this game we can learn the truth behind their abrupt evolution.

The Goron:
The Goron are a tribe of rock-people who are present in the mountains of Hyrule in OoT, but are almost completely missing in WW with the exception of three traveling merchants who very closely resemble Goron. There is no indication that they evolved into any race we see in WW and we get no explanation for their sudden disappearance. The fact that they do make a reappearance in the sequel games to WW, Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks, shows that they haven't gone completely extinct, but we still have no idea where they may have gone.

The Kokiri:
The Kokiri in WW are replaced by their descendants, the Korok. The Kokiri were a tribe of young children under the protection of their guardian, The Great Deku Tree. When the land of Hyrule was flooded, they evolved into the Korok we see in WW. They could play a role in this pre-WW era, however they very easily could not as well. The Kokiri are a race rarely seen by non-Kokiri folk however in OoT, Link grows up with the Kokiri which is why he can still see them, even though he is of Hylian blood. Unless this game were to start out similar to how OoT started which is unlikely, we may never see them in the game due to their hidden nature. However it would be nice to at least learn a reason behind their evolution.

Laruto and Fado:
Because this pre-WW era game takes place so closely near the beginning of the WW era, and because the last time the Master Sword was used was right before the kingdom was flooded, we can only assume that Laruto and Fado are the last to ever be in the Earth and Wind temples before the WW era, meaning they would have prominent roles in this pre-WW era as the latest Earth and Wind Sages.

Zephos and Cyclos:
The two Wind Deities in WW each only appear once throughout the entirety of the game. Perhaps they can have more of a background in this game, or perhaps not. Bringing in every single deity would be a bit overkill I imagine.

Princess Zelda (Possibly Incognito):
With almost every Link, there is a Princess Zelda to follow, and in WW we learn that even she might not know she's Zelda at the time of meeting her. I mentioned earlier when talking about the Forsaken Fortress that she could be a potential prisoner locked away there and Link is meant to go break her out of prison. Regardless if this is the case, she should definitely play a role in this pre-WW era as she would be the predecessor to the Zelda from WW who we first meet as the pirate captain, Tetra.

THE STORY:
I'm not going to go and create an entire plot to this Zelda game as there are certainly people working at Nintendo who are more qualified than I am at creating a story for this game. My purpose here is merely to speculate possible areas this game could cover story-wise.

Links Defeat:
As mentioned before, we know the fact that must remain the same in order for this pre-WW era to make sense is that Link must inevitably fail. This area of speculation would cover the journey in which Link sets out to defeat Ganondorf, but fails at doing so, ending with the flooding of Hyrule. This means we would be placed in the opportune moment when Link is picked to be the hero everyone needs, and go along on his journey to defeat Ganondorf. This could include the reestablishment of the Master Swords power by leading the to-be Earth and Wind Sages, Laruto and Fado, through the Earth and Wind Temples but perhaps at some point whilst Link is fighting Ganondorf he is told that his efforts were for naught as Ganondorf has slain Laruto and Fado by sending Jalhalla and Molgera to do his dirty work. A dark tale, yes, but a truth we never get to witness. We already know that at some point pre-WW, Jalhalla and Molgera kill Laruto and Fado, as they are merely ghosts in WW and need to be replaced by Medli and Makar. It is at this point that Link is defeated by Ganondorf after no longer having the fully-powered Master Sword. I leave the meaning of defeated up in the air, as it could mean he merely lost the battle and retreated, or he died in battle. Either way, it is after his defeat that the Gods decide to flood Hyrule to prevent Ganondorf from acquiring the Triforce.

The Defeatists Strategy:
This is probably the most-likely of the plot areas as it still provides Link, and the player, that feeling of success despite the underlying feeling of failure. In this speculated area, everything from Links Defeat still occurs, however the game doesn't simply end with just Link failing. In this area, Link is defeated, and after his retreat, he is sent forth to flood Hyrule to prevent Ganondorf from obtaining the Triforce. What I mean by this is that the Gods decide to flood Hyrule after seeing Link defeated in battle, but in order to flood Hyrule, Link has to go to some (possibly new) dungeon areas and flood it himself. Essentially the difference between this area and the previous area are that instead of the Gods automatically flooding Hyrule after Links defeat, Link is instead the one who must flood Hyrule. It's a way that the player can still feel accomplished in holding off Ganondorf, but still has the underlying reality that you've failed.

The Minor Details:
This one is just as likely as The Defeatists Strategy as it is exactly the same only with a few minor details occurring afterwards. After Link successfully floods Hyrule, he then goes back to Hyrule Castle to say his farewells to King Daphnes (and possibly Princess Zelda as well) and to place the Master Sword in the pedestal, freezing Hyrule Castle in time. What happens after this is up in the air. (NOTE: There is a slight error with this area due to the fact that Hyrule Castle is sealed BEFORE the kingdom is flooded.)

EPILOGUE:
Let me reiterate the fact that this is just my wish for a game that may likely never come out. It is a dark tale overall, but that's nothing unknown to the Zelda franchise as both Majoras Mask and Twilight Princess were similarly dark in nature. I know that it sounds like I just want a history for every non-important character and building in Hyrule, but believe me when I say that is not my intent, nor my hope. I simply came up with this idea and thought it would make for a great Zelda game. I will, however, admit to this: Wind Waker is by far my favorite in the Zelda franchise (no hate on my opinion please). I believe Wind Waker has the unfortunate placement under the overburdening shadow of Ocarina of Time, whom many regard to be the best Zelda game in the franchise. I also think it has the association with two of the least popular Zelda games which are it's direct sequels, Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks. Not to mention it's already present poor reputation for being 'different' than the Zelda games before it. All in all, I think Wind Waker gets its bad rep simply because it's predecessors and next of kin exist, and because it looks a little different than the 'normal Zelda games'. This influenced my decision to come up with a in-between game for Ocarina of Time and Wind Waker. The thought is that if there is a game between the two, Wind Waker might lose some of it's poor reputation because it will no longer come directly after the overburdening, Ocarina of Time. While this does nothing to help the bad rep gained from giving birth to the direct sequels, the hope is it'll even it out a bit.

AFTERWARD:
Anyways, if you took the time to read all of this, then I certainly commend you and thank you for taking the time to read my rambles :D Please feel free to tell me if I made any errors as far as the lore between Ocarina of Time and Wind Waker. I feel pretty confident in my knowledge of Wind Waker lore, but it has been a LONG time since I last played Ocarina of Time so I might have made a mistake or two there. Also feel free to mention your ideas for who would be in this pre-WW era, any familiar dungeons there might be, or areas of the story it might cover. I'd love to hear your opinions on the matter. :)
 

Spiritual Mask Salesman

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So pretty much you'd like for there to be a game like Valley of the Flood some were along the line, right? I just don't think such a game is worth the time for nintendo to make, such a game would be over explaining something that has already been explained very well as is.
 
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So pretty much you'd like for there to be a game like Valley of the Flood some were along the line, right? I just don't think such a game is worth the time for nintendo to make, such a game would be over explaining something that has already been explained very well as is.
I see your point but I'm not quite sure I understand it. The only explanations we get in Wind Waker are about what happened in Ocarina of Time and why everyone is living on tiny islands, but we never get an explanation as to why the Gods just decided to flood Hyrule other than "to prevent Ganondorf from obtaining the Triforce". Ganondorf is ALWAYS trying to obtain the Triforce, so why flood the world now? Why not flood it back in Ocarina of Time? The reasoning we have behind this decision is that The Hero of Time never reappeared to save Hyrule from Ganondorf, but why does the hero have to be The Hero of Time? The Link with the title, Hero of Time, is only seen in Ocarina of Time, Majoras Mask, and Twilight Princess. We've obviously played as non-Hero of Time-Links before, so why would this time be any different? As for its worth, I can see a substantial amount of reasons why Nintendo would and/or should take the time to make this game. It would spin a dark tale that those that enjoyed Majoras Mask and Twilight Princess would highly appreciate. Depending on the route they take with the story, it still gives the feeling of accomplishment, despite the underlying feeling of failure. Also it would give a more in-depth take on what happened after Ocarina of Time which those that hold that game in high regard should appreciate. It is also different enough, yet also similar enough to Ocarina of Time and Wind Waker, that it shouldn't feel too much like a recreation of either game, granted, a majority of the dungeons I mentioned are exclusively from Wind Waker, but the idea was that these dungeons would be a bit different in nature seeing as things could have changed between the time before Wind Waker, and the time of Wind Waker. The population would be widely different with the exception of those few who are seemingly timeless (meaning King Daphnes, Great Deku Tree, Valoo, etc). Having Link fail in the game would serve as a HUGE point of actual human error which would allow the person playing them to feel more like they are the hero in the game which is something Nintendo specifically strives for. It would show that despite the fact that you can't win every battle, there is always a silver lining. The last reason is easy, it's a Zelda game, and Nintendo can almost never go wrong with a new Zelda game.

While I still think this idea would be great, my overall hope is for a game that shows progress. Theoretically, you could make a game in between any two Zelda games and show the progress made from point A to point B, the only reasons I picked the spot where I did, was because A) Wind Waker is my favorite in the Zelda franchise, and I'd love to know more about it, and :cool: There is a significant time-gap between Ocarina of Time and Wind Waker that I really think needs closing. At least with the Wind Waker series, you can notice a clear line of progression, which to me makes the games more enjoyable. You clearly see that after having defeated Ganondorf in Wind Waker, Link and Tetra/Zelda sail out for new land, which brings you into Phantom Hourglass, and then from there they find new land, which leads into Spirit Tracks. What I want is more clear progression like that, and less like Ocarina of Time to Wind Waker where there is a large gap where things 'just happened'.
 

Spiritual Mask Salesman

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Because in OoT link was around, directly after OoT on the adult time line link gets sent back to relive his childhood so when ganondorf breaks the sages seal there is no hero to stop Ganondorf so the gods have to intervene. WW explains this in full depth.
 
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Because in OoT link was around, directly after OoT on the adult time line link gets sent back to relive his childhood so when ganondorf breaks the sages seal there is no hero to stop Ganondorf so the gods have to intervene. WW explains this in full depth.

I addressed that situation in the original post. Basically what I said was that no one remembers the losers; the purpose of this game would be to play as a Link who loses, meaning he doesn't stop Ganondorf.
 
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All the transitions from Ocarina of Time to Wind Waker are interesting questions, so it would always be fun to know what happened in between. A lot of that can be said of the transitions from Ocarina of Time to Twilight Princess as well, though. As such, I think the best thrust for your argument is the "Defeatist's Strategy" section of your post. Are there ways to invoke a defeat of the hero in-game that makes it interesting for the audience?

I addressed that situation in the original post. Basically what I said was that no one remembers the losers; the purpose of this game would be to play as a Link who loses, meaning he doesn't stop Ganondorf.

That said, I do have more faith in the people of the Zelda universe to remember the existence of the hero of legends (or perhaps someone who looks and acts like the hero of legends), when they are in great danger. If any Link truly existed during Ganon's resurrection, then surely he would appear in the great amount of exposition in The Wind Waker. I think a grander explanation is in order here. I think the engineering of the Flood would be performed by someone who is not any Link.
 

Justac00lguy

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I addressed that situation in the original post. Basically what I said was that no one remembers the losers; the purpose of this game would be to play as a Link who loses, meaning he doesn't stop Ganondorf.

This doesn't work as it completely contradicts events that have already been pretold. They specifically said "the hero did not appear" They didn't say the hero was defeated. I've explored the idea of a defeated hero before WW Link and I simply can't warm to it. Link is essentially lost when he returns to his own time, that connection which binds these figures to the Triforce is completely lost... broken - in other words, the hero's spirit is no more. In the events of TWW, we reforge the hero in a sense; we take on the test to acquire the Master Sword, gather blessing from the ancient sages, and eventually piece together the fragments of the Triforce of Courage. The whole refreshing thing about this is the fact that Link is this new line of a hero - a new beginning so to say. I feel some of this would be lost if Nintendo all of a sudden retconed in plot where they introduce a watered down hero who actually loses.

Plus if these events aren't exactly important to mention in pre-events, why actually base a game around them? This would be a rather lacklustre plot where we know the main plot lines, plot twists, and final outcomes. We know Hyrule gets flooded, we know Ganondorf is the victor, and, finally, we are playing a character who we know is going to eventually die. Doesn't this bother anyone?

All what I said above really puts me off the idea of a pre Wind Waker post Ocarina of Time title. The concept isn't necessarily bad, you proved that with a lot of well thought-out ideas and possible in-game scenarios; however the actual story would be very lacklustre. You're essentially stuck to several boundaries, which severely lessens the game's potential.
 

Spiritual Mask Salesman

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I addressed that situation in the original post. Basically what I said was that no one remembers the losers; the purpose of this game would be to play as a Link who loses, meaning he doesn't stop Ganondorf.

Than that would be going against everything WW and Hyrule Historia tells us, there was no hero when Ganondorf broke the seal, if there was a hero than the gods wouldn't have flooded hyrule. The hero's spirit was no longer around, there was no hero who challanged Ganon, everything in the game tells us a hero just never appeared. Demise's curse from SS said that an incarnation of his hatred would always return, so long as the hero's spirit, and the blood of the goddess was still around. Zelda survived the flood and had tetra, the blood of the goddess lived on, I'm not sure if WW link has the spirit of the hero, but he was worthy to pull up the master sword and weild the Triforce of courage, those two things are what one needs to beat Ganon.

Do you get what I'm saying? While your idea is interesting its not something nintendo would try and do, it would just confuse everything they tried busting into our heads.
 

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