General Modern What Modern Zelda is Missing

[Octorokstar]

I came to a conclusion of what made a true Zelda game just from seeing the first three Zeldas.

The first Zelda was a top-down perspective but with but no in-game story to follow. You had to look at the story though manual. You traveled through out the game finding secrets in hope that it would help you get to a dungeon. You could buy Keys, shield, food etc. the most common item was your bomb and arrows.

Zelda II: The Adventure of Link, had a top-down perspective overworld in a more of an RPG style. But specific areas such as towns, caves, and dungeons were side-scrolling. they weren't unwelcomed. However, the game was much more linear. You had to beat the dungeons in order (unless you were incredibly lucky and was able to clear through a cave without a candle).

A Link to the Past had brought back most of the overworld design of the original LoZ, however it expanded more on what the original had. More heavy usage of items. There wasn't any side-scrolling anymore.

From the original 3 games, i noticed one thing that kept consistent, and that is having secrets to discover. The original Zelda made you discover everything, including the main quest. Having to bomb walls, or burning bushes to find secret passage ways. the game was filled with secrets. You could get a heart container, you could get more rupees or a shield. Zelda II was more linear and less secrets, but there was enough of them to look around for. The overworld had certain areas where you can get point bags, and heart containers and even fairies. ALttP followed closer to LoZ, and the secrets were more than just bombing walls.

Since then, we had received Link's Awakening (DX), Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask, Oracle of Ages/Seasons. Most of these were very linear, but you still found away to discover areas and find secrets one way or another. Ocarina of Time had fewer secrets, but other distractions to take up. There were a few areas to enjoy.

But things changed with Wind Waker, there was barely any secrets or distractions. The main goal was to travel island to island with big heeps of water. Traveling from island ot island was also a chore. The fun were all in the islands. but to me that wasn't enough.

But this game spoke more than just afew changes. With Wind Waker, Nintendo tried to say that they wanted to try something new with Zelda or try to rewrite the formula. People didn't take too kindly to this (at first) in which is why Twilight Princess came out And granted, the game had a lot of potential. its still a few people's personal favorites. but it was clear the game could've been "more". Nintendo did it to please the fans, but they didn't give it their all. We also received the Four swords adventure, which were interesting but designed too much like minigames. Then came Minish Cap, another fan favorite but there was still something wrong. The secrets in this game were scarce, and most of the discovery had to be through merging kinstones. It was way too tedious. But this didn't stop Nintendo to keep trying to re-invent the Zelda wheel. We also received Spirit Tracks that changes the style of traveling all through tracks. It was a nice idea, but it just wasn't "Zelda". As time progressed, these games have received less and less secrets and distractions. These games started becoming more and more streamlined to the main quest.

Skyward Sword took the cake when most of the quests was just talking, and doing menial things. The sky overworld had nothing to enjoy. it was just a hub to get to other specific areas. and those areas aswell didn't have much of a distraction. It was streamlined for the main quest. The problem wasn't that it was too linear, it just didn't have enough distractions or secrets to hide the linearity.

But now....lets look at ALBW: it does almost what it claims to do, go back to the original formula, but it doesn't....It tries to streamline further. Yes, some elements from ALttP had returned, but the level of distractions are barely intriguing. The game gives you prizes for little menial tasks. For every 10 Maimais you collected, you would gain an item upgrade. Whenin the history of Zelda have you gotten an upgrade so easily? the renting system makes dungeons less dynamic, rather than gaining an item in the dungeon that helps you beat it, you get them before you even get in. Sure there were some distractions. but part of the problem is you can get passed them and never really know they were "fun".

Ever since Wind Waker, Nintendo has been making the same claims over and over. that they want to reinvent Zelda. it gets to the point that they dont look much like Zelda games anymore.

 

[Ventus]

I pretty much agree with you through and through. Zelda needs to go back to having secrets, GREAT secrets, that make you simply sigh with relief that your troubles of searching have been quelled...but then you get the adrenaline because whatever you found will surely be a task to retreive.

 

[ReveredPartisan]

Eh, I dunno. I mean, you make good points, but these points only really pertain to your definition of Zelda. The problem is, there are so many... To quote Satoru Iwata (and I'm paraphrasing): "There are as many definitions of Zelda as there are players."

I mean, aLttP had a very expansive overworld and spectacular exploration, but personally, I didn't enjoy it much because Zelda, to me, means so much more than exploration. In the same vein, you say that Nintendo didn't give TP their "all," but, in my opinion, Nintendo made leaps and bounds with that game, crafted a masterful narrative and experience-- simply, they didn't limit their efforts to exploration.

That's why I disagree with the claim that true Zelda games have certain components-- especially components taken from Zelda 1, a game the series has long evolved past. Don't get me wrong, the Zelda series certainly could (and should) revisit Zelda 1, but to say its properties decide the heart of the series is fundamentally incorrect.

I actually agree with what you're saying, in terms of adding more side content-- I just don't think that's the standard by which all other games should be judged.

 

[Sheik]

I agree with a lot of what you're saying.

When you were on the topic of distractions and secrets and whatnot, I couldn't stop thinking about this one island in the Sky of Skyward Sword. This island's located around the northwestern part of Thunderhead, and it might just be the most interesting island in the Sky (apart from Skyloft and Pumpkin Landing of course). It's intricate design - one that almost reminds you of an old, dilapidated ruin of sorts - was so intriguing compared to most other islands in the Sky that it was a pretty pleasant surprise for me. On this unusual island are holes leading to other holes and other tiny holes that you crawl through and ropes to swing across and spider-webs and a beehive and lots of other stuff. Exploring the island's outsides and insides and searching for any secrets it may be hiding was a lot of fun, and honestly gave me a feeling of true exploration that I hadn't gotten from Skyward Sword thus far. I don't even think there's any real treasure hidden inside the island - maybe some rupees in chests here and there, but nothing much - and honestly, I didn't really care, because this island was so neat anyways that I wasn't even disappointed. (I may be exaggerating a bit on the greatness of this island, it's actually kinda small.) The island may also be food for thought. You know, since this place has such an interesting design, maybe somebody once lived here? Was the island like this when it arose from the Surface? How did this odd place come to be? The best part about this island is that it's completely story unrelated. The game doesn't make any real mention of it; it's not like you have to come here to rescue a child or find an ancient relic or something, but it's just there. There for the player to find and explore at their own free will. And I was thinking, you know, Skyward Sword would have benefited from other islands like these. Fun to explore, neat treasures inside, maybe some enemies to fight, out of the way and not completely mandatory to explore...

This doesn't just apply to Skyward Sword, but the entire Zelda series. Zelda doesn't have to be completely story-driven; in fact it really shouldn't by completely story-driven at all. Not saying story doesn't matter, story matters of course, but when it comes to the gameplay itself, story should sometimes take a rest in lieu of exploration. I actually thought Wind Waker was spectacular in this regard. To me, it was the perfect blend of story and exploration, and that may be why it's my favorite game.

 

[Octorokstar]

Eh, I dunno. I mean, you make good points, but these points only really pertain to your definition of Zelda. The problem is, there are so many... To quote Satoru Iwata (and I'm paraphrasing): "There are as many definitions of Zelda as there are players."

I mean, aLttP had a very expansive overworld and spectacular exploration, but personally, I didn't enjoy it much because Zelda, to me, means so much more than exploration. In the same vein, you say that Nintendo didn't give TP their "all," but, in my opinion, Nintendo made leaps and bounds with that game, crafted a masterful narrative and experience-- simply, they didn't limit their efforts to exploration.

That's why I disagree with the claim that true Zelda games have certain components-- especially components taken from Zelda 1, a game the series has long evolved past. Don't get me wrong, the Zelda series certainly could (and should) revisit Zelda 1, but to say its properties decide the heart of the series is fundamentally incorrect.

I actually agree with what you're saying, in terms of adding more side content-- I just don't think that's the standard by which all other games should be judged.

Exploration is what always stood in Zelda. The quantity and quality of distractions is what really helps a Zelda game. And by no means am i saying a game should revert back to the way the original Zelda was. The original Zelda barely had any story and relied heavily on the usage of "story. And usually most people want to use the first Zelda and ALttP for the usage of "Zelda should be more non-linear" but i'm not that type of person, i know that when things get more story-driven, a little more linearity is necessary.

And i'm not criticizing Twilight Princess for the story. I'm criticizing it for what it could've done more regardless that it had focused on other aspects. But there is indeed an ammount of core elements that i saw not just because it was in the original Zelda but something i saw in all three Zelda games. Including Zelda II which is considered the black sheep of Zelda. Trying to say "Zelda doesn't have any components" may end up leading to anything can be labeled Zelda. Which to me, means not caring about what Zelda actually is.

Still...exploration and discovery of secrets is basically what makes the grand majority of the Zelda games. Its a core aspect, whether or not its "the" core aspect. (I argue it is)

I agree with a lot of what you're saying.

When you were on the topic of distractions and secrets and whatnot, I couldn't stop thinking about this one island in the Sky of Skyward Sword. This island's located around the northwestern part of Thunderhead, and it might just be the most interesting island in the Sky (apart from Skyloft and Pumpkin Landing of course). It's intricate design - one that almost reminds you of an old, dilapidated ruin of sorts - was so intriguing compared to most other islands in the Sky that it was a pretty pleasant surprise for me. On this unusual island are holes leading to other holes and other tiny holes that you crawl through and ropes to swing across and spider-webs and a beehive and lots of other stuff. Exploring the island's outsides and insides and searching for any secrets it may be hiding was a lot of fun, and honestly gave me a feeling of true exploration that I hadn't gotten from Skyward Sword thus far. I don't even think there's any real treasure hidden inside the island - maybe some rupees in chests here and there, but nothing much - and honestly, I didn't really care, because this island was so neat anyways that I wasn't even disappointed. (I may be exaggerating a bit on the greatness of this island, it's actually kinda small.) The island may also be food for thought. You know, since this place has such an interesting design, maybe somebody once lived here? Was the island like this when it arose from the Surface? How did this odd place come to be? The best part about this island is that it's completely story unrelated. The game doesn't make any real mention of it; it's not like you have to come here to rescue a child or find an ancient relic or something, but it's just there. There for the player to find and explore at their own free will. And I was thinking, you know, Skyward Sword would have benefited from other islands like these. Fun to explore, neat treasures inside, maybe some enemies to fight, out of the way and not completely mandatory to explore...

This doesn't just apply to Skyward Sword, but the entire Zelda series. Zelda doesn't have to be completely story-driven; in fact it really shouldn't by completely story-driven at all. Not saying story doesn't matter, story matters of course, but when it comes to the gameplay itself, story should sometimes take a rest in lieu of exploration. I actually thought Wind Waker was spectacular in this regard. To me, it was the perfect blend of story and exploration, and that may be why it's my favorite game.

I agree with mostly what you are saying. And i want to make clear that story is obviously going to be something thats going to evolve over time with more and more Zelda games. But what has recently been ignored is the ammount of exploration.

My main problem with Wind Waker was getting to one island after another was a chore. if you really look deep into that game, most of the hours your spending is on the water, not on the quests and other things. To me, Wind Waker (alongside Minish Cap and ALBW) are over

 

[Farore's Chosen]

Well every Zelda has a little something different about them, that's part of the series magic. it evolves slowly, introducing small elements in each game to see what sticks and what doesn't.

LoZ-of course this was the first and started off a grand and nearly perfect series
AoL-had magic and introduced sword moves, shape shifting and spells, it was more linear, fans complain about that but every Zelda game I've played with the exception of Worlds forces you along a set dungeon path, plus you can still explore quite a bit.
ALTTP-more like LoZ but the order of dungeons were very linear and you were not allowed to deviate at all, was the first Zelda to switch between realities
MC-Also had a strongly set Dungeon path but there was a lot more exploration with the addition of the Minish World
TP-had plenty of secrets to be found, underground thanks to wolf link's digging, caves, invisible chests, small areas connected to pre-existing ones
SS-I guess it had the Goddess cubes and a few chests here and there and getting upgrades were FAR easier then the Maimai Hunt, I still haven't gotten all of the cute lil buggers
Oracle Games-jam packed with goodies to find, puzzles in the form of traveling through time or changing the right seasons! Introduced aggravating forced mini games that kill fun. grr!
Link's Awakening-I wouldn't say this one's linear at least not more then the first game, it is very traditional in the old school Zelda sense but its still tons of fun!
ST-...I like riding the trains
ALBW-a lot of people say that this is like the first game which is incorrect. Once you accessed Lorule you can literally go anywhere you please. This is the ONLY Zelda that has ever allowed you access to any dungeon or any area without having to be blocked by item specific obstacles and it's so easy to circumvent Ravio snatching your stuff by saving often and resetting when you do die...which isn't often.
OoT-the most beloved Zelda doesn't get much exploration, it does get some, certainly more then SS or ST but there are secrets to be found and plenty of em.
_______________________
MM-idk how much exploration or secrets you can cram into it with a time limit, only Zelda game with a consistent time limit, mask system
WW-I'll take your word for it but it introduced sailing
FS/FSA-I have no idea what they introduced, did they come before or after MC? Multi-player I guess? Sure that. only Zelda games with multi-player
PH-introduced touch screen controls?

 

[Dio]

Well every Zelda have a little something different about them, that's part of the series magic. it evolves slowly, introducing small elements in each game to see what sticks and what doesn't.

I disagree. An evolution would imply a natural progression, the things that worked being carried over and improved upon, the things that didn't work, discarded. This is not how the series works.
Whenever they release a new game, and this has happened since MM, they discard some of the bad things but also some of the good and add something completely new and different each time, not a small element at all like you suggest. MM added great character development, tons of INTERESTING sidequests and a darker theme. These things are what I often hear fans clamouring for, what they think worked so well...and yet they have not been in Zelda since MM. What has the series gained from what MM did well? Nothing really.







On a note unrelated to the above paragraph but answers the title of this thread 'what modern Zelda is missing'
VOICE ACTING Modern Zelda is missing voice acting

 

[Octorokstar]

LoZ-of course this was the first and started off a grand and nearly perfect series
AoL-had magic and introduced sword moves, shape shifting and spells, it was more linear, fans complain about that but every Zelda game I've played with the exception of Worlds forces you along a set dungeon path, plus you can still explore quite a bit.
ALTTP-more like LoZ but the order of dungeons were very linear and you were not allowed to deviate at all, was the first Zelda to switch between realities
MC-Also had a strongly set Dungeon path but there was a lot more exploration with the addition of the Minish World
TP-had plenty of secrets to be found, underground thanks to wolf link's digging, caves, invisible chests, small areas connected to pre-existing ones
SS-I guess it had the Goddess cubes and a few chests here and there and getting upgrades were FAR easier then the Maimai Hunt, I still haven't gotten all of the cute lil buggers
Oracle Games-jam packed with goodies to find, puzzles in the form of traveling through time or changing the right seasons! Introduced aggravating forced mini games that kill fun. grr!
Link's Awakening-I wouldn't say this one's linear at least not more then the first game, it is very traditional in the old school Zelda sense but its still tons of fun!
ST-...I like riding the trains
ALBW-a lot of people say that this is like the first game which is incorrect. Once you accessed Lorule you can literally go anywhere you please. This is the ONLY Zelda that has ever allowed you access to any dungeon or any area without having to be blocked by item specific obstacles and it's so easy to circumvent Ravio snatching your stuff by saving often and resetting when you do die...which isn't often.
OoT-the most beloved Zelda doesn't get much exploration, it does get some, certainly more then SS or ST but there are secrets to be found and plenty of em.
_______________________
MM-idk how much exploration or secrets you can cram into it with a time limit, only Zelda game with a consistent time limit, mask system
WW-I'll take your word for it but it introduced sailing
FS/FSA-I have no idea what they introduced, did they come before or after MC? Multi-player I guess? Sure that. only Zelda games with multi-player
PH-introduced touch screen controls?

ALttP is mostly non linear as well. You still had the choice to choose which dungeon you wanted. or a certain amount. the majority of them are
FS/FSA came before Minish Cap. Minish Cap was suppose to be a prequel. the sad thing is that these games feel like an excuse.
I don't know why you would say that LA isn't more linear than the first LoZ. It was just as linear as Zelda II. You couldn't deviate much from the formula unless you forced your way to doing it. There was more distractions though.

And i think the problem with ALBW is exactly what you saiad. the game is designed almost like a minigame (in similar vain to FS/FSA) But how many times did you hear Nintendo trying to rewrite the Zelda formula after Wind Waker? They said it "MULTIPLE" times.

 

[Farore's Chosen]

ALttP is mostly non linear as well. You still had the choice to choose which dungeon you wanted. or a certain amount. the majority of them are
FS/FSA came before Minish Cap. Minish Cap was suppose to be a prequel. the sad thing is that these games feel like an excuse.
I don't know why you would say that LA isn't more linear than the first LoZ. It was just as linear as Zelda II. You couldn't deviate much from the formula unless you forced your way to doing it. There was more distractions though.

And i think the problem with ALBW is exactly what you saiad. the game is designed almost like a minigame (in similar vain to FS/FSA) But how many times did you hear Nintendo trying to rewrite the Zelda formula after Wind Waker? They said it "MULTIPLE" times.

Whoops! Your right about LA, it's actually a little more linear then the first Zelda, since in the first you could get into the dungeons until you hit an item specific snag...or died because you didn't have enough hearts, but its not as linear as the second Zelda because you can still access certain areas early on like Mt. Tamaranch.


ETA: I'm not sure what modern Zelda is missing. I don't care one way or the other about voice acting, I like that they introduce little modern touches such as a train or a telephone, I would like a little more realism now and again a'la TP style and I would like a dark plot a little more often. Actually I do have one thing that modern Zelda is missing. A kick-*** princess Zelda as a playable character or in her own game. I mean c'mon Nintendo! Even Princess Toadstool/Peach got to be a playable character in SMB2, Super Princess Peach and Super Paper Mario! And i dunno about her own game but she was a decent playable character in SMB2 and SPM.

Maybe a game where she spends time training as a Shiekah!

 

[Octorokstar]

i think you meant to say that Link's Awakening is "MORE" Linear (if not, then i'm going to have to as you how LA is less linear than the first Zelda). I will say that Zelda II is the most linear Zelda to date and it still manages to bring exploration and secrets to the game. which is why i came to the conclusion that Zelda is mostly about that (with of course story, and characters etc).

But anyways...i dont think the "Magic" is about how different each Zelda is. I think its an issue when you are a developer and af an of your own series at the same time. Because to me, it doesn't look like Nintendo wants to make a good Zelda while having natural progression. their the giddy fans that can do whatever they want (hence, toon Link games and ALBW)

 

[Curmudgeon]

I will say that Zelda II is the most linear Zelda to date and it still manages to bring exploration and secrets to the game. which is why i came to the conclusion that Zelda is mostly about that (with of course story, and characters etc).

I really have nothing to say about modern Zelda. I just thought i'd pop in to add some context to what Zelda II does both good and bad in relation to secrets and exploration.

Exploration in AoL is largely illusion, though illusions can be effective in their own way. The JRPG-esque overworld in Adventure of Link only creates the perception of space. The world of Zelda II is sectioned into seven areas - Western Hyrule (north and south), Death Mountain, Eastern Hyrule (north and south), Maze Island, and the Valley of Death. Death Mountain is the only area that requires any real exploration at all due to its maze-like nature.

With the exception of Death Mountain, Zelda II "exploration" just means walking to the limit of the zone you are currently confined to. There aren't a ton of obstructions or actual terrain to get in your way, it just determines what sorts of enemies you encounter. It's more or less an overhead version of walking to the edges of Hyrule field in OoT. The purpose of dungeon items is simply to unlock the next area and give you a new space to walk in. The only reason the process takes more than a few minutes is constant random enemy encounters designed to warp your spatial perception. Having to fight enemies twenty times causes your brain to think that the space is much larger than it actually is due to the constant stoppages.

Spoiler

pretty short walk to get around there. Except the constant stream of Bots, Moblins, Deelers, and Geldarms that keep distracting you.

The palaces do the same thing. Side view and scrolling alter how you perceive the level

Spoiler

This is the Ocean Palace, the largest dungeon outside the final one. Now you realize it's on the same scale as LoZ and LA dungeons. The shift in perspective and scale messes with your brain. The only reason it takes longer is because you probably suck at fighting iron knuckles (not that there's anything wrong with that... ****'s hard.)

In short, the exploration in AoL is actually pretty weak and not nearly as immersive as the original game. Yes, you're technically doing the same thing, but the single screen frames a feeling of closeness that puts you a lot closer to the action. Enemies are also encountered organically and do not play tricks on your mind by shifting to a setting that doesn't actually exist in the game.

I will agree that Zelda II has secrets - and not just the kind where you drop bombs until a hole appears. Each hidden item in the game is cryptically hinted at (though you can still blunder across everything). It's an 80s CRPG game design sensibility (which makes sense, since the game was released in Japan in, you know, 1987). Last summer I cataloged all of the utterances in the game. Everything is there for you. You just have to get over the fact that you don't have a minimap with big GO HERE labels or a HUD with a magical compass.

 

[Terminus]

What modern Zelda is missing: Nostalgia Goggles.

 

[Curmudgeon]

What modern Zelda is missing: Nostalgia Goggles.

you act like you've never met tww fanbois

 

[Snow Queen]

The only thing I think modern Zelda is missing is fun. The games are just too plot-centric, and it detracts from the overall level of fun.

 

[DarkestLink]

I don't know...the way you're wording it, "secrets" sounds like "bomb this random wall for a cave" which has honestly never been fun to me.