Spoiler Timeline Mania!!

[BamaLynx]

[FONT=&quot]So who likes Zelda Timeline theories!? I'm sure most are sick of them, but since this is the first time I've made an attempt at one I need some opinions. So help me out. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]FYI...the basis of most of this timeline was developed from 3 things: 1) Movement of the Master Sword, 2) Changes in Ganondorf/Ganon, and 3) Hyrule Geography.

First...I need to make sure you understand my assumptions and points of views on various issues that will form this timeline.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]KEY POINTS/ASSUMPTIONS:[/FONT]

1. [FONT=&quot]"Ganondorf" = Earthly Body, "Ganon" = Unearthly, spirit entity of Ganondorf[/FONT]
2. [FONT=&quot]Master Sword cannot kill Ganon. It can only temporarily downgrade Ganon's power and/or kill the earthly body, Ganondorf.[/FONT]
3. [FONT=&quot]Silver Arrows are the only thing that can kill the uneartly, spirit entity, Ganon.[/FONT]
4. [FONT=&quot]Twilight Realm is analogous to "Jail in Hell" for the land of Hyrule. It is where evil beings are sent. Twilight Realm = Evil Realm.[/FONT]
5. [FONT=&quot]The "Vaati Trilogy" (MC, FS, and FSA) takes place in a parallel universe to all the other games. There is just no way I can logically place them in the timeline and still feel comfortable, therefore, my only conclusion is to put them on a timeline that does not impact (or is impacted) by the other stories (but we still see all the same individuals, i.e. Link, Ganondorf, Ganon, Zelda, etc.).[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Now that we have that out of the way we can get down to business. I'm going to discuss each game and it's placement in the timeline, but I'm also including an image with the timeline for easy following.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]


[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Combined Timeline (prior to Child/Adult split)

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Skyward Sword [/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]No explanation needed at this time. Developers have told us that it comes prior to OoT. May change once we see the story with our own eyes.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Ocarina of Time[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]See the origin and rise to power of Ganondorf.[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]VITAL INFO: Ganondorf/Ganon are not "killed", but rather sent to the "Evil Realm" by the sages (in Ganondorf form).[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]VITAL INFO: Master Sword is found in a fully built Temple of Time in Castle Town near the Royal Palace. It also ends up back in the Temple of Time at the end.[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Link is sent back to his childhood after defeating Ganondorf/Ganon, and this creates a split in the timeline.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Child Timeline[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Majora's Mask[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]No explanation needed. Obvious sequel to the child Link in OoT.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Twilight Princess[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]It is revealed that Ganondorf is sealed away in the Twilight Realm/Evil Realm when Link is sent back to his childhood for his conspiracy to conquer Hyrule and the Triforce (so Ganondorf is sealed away by the sages to the same place in OoT when Link is an Adult and Child, because Evil Realm = Twilight Realm...just different wording).[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]ASSUMPTION: For some reason (that goes unexplained in the game), it appears that the Temple of Time is moved from Castle Town to the OoT Forest Temple location and enlarged...possibly to better protect the Master Sword from harm.[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]REASONS WHY IT COMES NEXT:[/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]Master Sword is found in the ruins of the Temple of Time at the end of the Lost Woods. The fact that the temple is in ruins indicates a passing of time.[/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]Ganondorf arises from the Twilight Realm where he was last placed in OoT.[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]VITAL INFO: Ganondorf (earthly body) is killed by the Master Sword, which means we should not see "Ganondorf" again on this side of the timeline.
  [/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]VITAL INFO: Master Sword is placed back in the pedestal in the ruins of the Temple of Time at the back of the Lost Woods.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]A Link to the Past[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]REASONS WHY IT COMES NEXT:[/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]The unearthly spirit, Ganon, arises in a new body, the magician Agahnim, before revealing his true form in the Dark World. The earthly body, Ganondorf is not present, and truly died in TP. But the spirit, Ganon, remained and waited for his moment to arise once again.[/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]Master Sword is found in a grove area at the end of the Lost Woods, exactly where it was left in TP. No temple ruins can be found, which indicates even further passing of time.[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]VITAL INFO: Ganon (unearthly spirit) is destroyed by Silver Arrows, which means there can no longer be a true Ganondorf/Ganon on this timeline unless explicitly state that either has been risen from destruction.
  [/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]VITAL INFO: Master Sword is placed back in the same pedestal at the end of the Lost Woods.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Link's Awakening[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Primarily placed here because I believe that was the intention of the developers. Since it is in a new land with no Master Sword or Ganondorf/Ganon, it is difficult to confirm. Placement is basically assumed from when the game was released to the public (soon after the release of ALttP).[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Oracle of Seasons/Oracle of Ages[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Similar to Link's Awakening, it takes place in new lands, and so it is difficult to place.[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]REASONS WHY IT COMES NEXT:[/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]In the opening scenes to Oracle of Seasons, a character mentions Link having nightmares in the woods. This implies to me a reference to Link's Awakening. [/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]Similar styling and gameplay as Link's Awakening.[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]VITAL INFO: The Ganon that arises in this game is analogous to an undead body or non-conscience being. It has no connection to the previous Ganon, except in its appearance. Twinrova was not able to fully complete the resurrection.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Adult Timeline[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]The Wind Waker[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Basically the same setup as TP with Ganondorf finding his way out of the Evil/Twilight Realm (except this Ganondorf version was the one that had the opportunity to rise to power in OoT).[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]ASSUMPTION: In this half of the timeline, the Royal Family once again decided to move the Master Sword (which is exactly what they did on the child timeline prior to TP), except they decided to move it to a secret basement nearby in the Royal Palace instead of a new Temple of Time in the Lost Woods. The differences in location must be attributed to the 7 year difference in time that was seen in OoT.
  [/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]REASONS WHY IT COMES NEXT:[/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]Explicity discusses the role of the Hero of Time (OoT Link) in sealing away Ganondorf/Ganon in the game introduction.[/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]Ganondorf, in his earthly body form, is shown being sealed away, and that is the same form which appears in this game.[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]VITAL INFO: Ganondorf (earthly body) is killed by the Master Sword.[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]VITAL INFO: The Master Sword ends up in the head of the stone Ganondorf and underneath an ocean of water.[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]These 2 "Vital Info" points indicate that we should not see "Ganondorf", and most likely Master Sword, again on this side of the timeline.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
Phantom Hourglass
[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]No explanation needed. Obvious sequel to The Wind Waker.[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]VITAL INFO: Link and Zelda/Tetra are searching for a "New Hyrule" to populate.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The Legend of Zelda[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]REASONS WHY IT COMES NEXT:[/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]Ganon, the unearthly spirit, arises, and there is no evidence of the earthly body Ganondorf, because he was killed in The Wind Waker.[/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]No evidence of the Master Sword.[/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]Hyrule is barren and mildly populated with no evident cities or even villages, which is what you would expect from a newly discovered land that is just emerging. This agrees perfectly with what occurred in Phantom Hourglass.[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]VITAL INFO: Ganon is destroyed with the Silver Arrows, which means we should no longer see Ganon (or Ganondorf) on this half of the timeline.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The Adventure of Link[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]No explanation needed. Obvious sequel to The Legend of Zelda.[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Ganons minions are attempting to resurrect him, but are unsuccessful, so no Ganon/Ganondorf is seen. Also no sign of the Master Sword still.[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]VITAL INFO: People have begun repopulating the new land, and naming various towns and landmarks in memory of the Old Hyrule.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Spirit Tracks[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]REASONS WHY IT COMES NEXT:[/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]Occurs many, many years after Phantom Hourglass story. Enough time to repopulate and establish a more advanced and productive society in the New Hyrule.[/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]No sign of Ganondorf/Ganon, or the Master Sword.[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]ASSUMPTION: The “Demon King” is a completely separate evil entity from Ganon, and the story of the Demon King is one that has not been revealed to us in detail in the form of a game centered on the storyline given in the intro to Spirit Tracks. It either occurred before LoZ or after AoL.[/FONT]

 

[JuicieJ]

Well, you basically got it right except for the original two games. Those are confirmed to be after A Link to the Past by old quotes and such. Plus, why would they go on the "adult timeline" if they were made so long ago? Nothing like a "split timeline" had been thought of back then.

 

[BamaLynx]

Well, you basically got it right except for the original two games. Those are confirmed to be after A Link to the Past by old quotes and such. Plus, why would they go on the "adult timeline" if they were made so long ago? Nothing like a "split timeline" had been thought of back then.

Well I doubt there is a "right" answer, but it does not work to put them after a ALttP based on my assumptions and what I was using to develop the timeline (in-game movement of the Master Sword, Ganondorf/Ganon changes, and Hyrule geography). Like you mentioned, the developers had not thought of a lot of things "back then", and so I only resort to developer info/quotes when there is not a lot of in-game data to go off of.

 

[JuicieJ]

Well I doubt there is a "right" answer, but it does not work to put them after a ALttP based on my assumptions and what I was using to develop the timeline (in-game movement of the Master Sword, Ganondorf/Ganon changes, and Hyrule geography). Like you mentioned, the developers had not thought of a lot of things "back then", and so I only resort to developer info/quotes when there is not a lot of in-game data to go off of.

No, there is no "right" answer for every game. Nintendo doesn't even know the "timeline" I'd bet. But there are games that can't be contradicted in placements.



............/WW--PH--ST
SS--OoT
............\MM--TP

From quotes we can add ALttP, LA, LoZ, and AoL after TP.

............/WW--PH--ST
SS--OoT
............\MM--TP--ALttP--(LA)--LoZ--AoL

 

[BamaLynx]

But there are games that can't be contradicted in placements.

Not sure what you mean by this last statement? And what quotes are you referring to exactly, I'm curious what the context was and who said it? I do believe I remember seeing some quote by Miyamoto saying something about the timeline when ALttP originally came out (and he may have said ALttP -> LoZ -> AoL)...is that what you are referring to?

My only problem with that specific quote is that it came way before OoT and any thought of a split. Once the fans identified the split as a possibility, I believe Nintendo just ran with it, and at that point everything is up for grabs in my opinion and that original quote would no long hold any water.

 

[JuicieJ]

Not sure what you mean by this last statement? And what quotes are you referring to exactly, I'm curious what the context was and who said it? I do believe I remember seeing some quote by Miyamoto saying something about the timeline when ALttP originally came out (and he may have said ALttP -> LoZ -> AoL)...is that what you are referring to?

My only problem with that specific quote is that it came way before OoT and any thought of a split. Once the fans identified the split as a possibility, I believe Nintendo just ran with it, and at that point everything is up for grabs in my opinion and that original quote would no long hold any water.

Ask Locke about quotes. And I meant that some games can't be argued as to where they go.

 

[BamaLynx]

Ask Locke about quotes. And I meant that some games can't be argued as to where they go.

Why is that? And is that your opinoin about LoZ and AoL....their placement can't be argued?

Also, did you read my rationale for placing LoZ and AoL where I did? What were your issues with my rationale (besides the quotes you are referring to)?

 

[JuicieJ]

Why is that? And is that your opinoin about LoZ and AoL....their placement can't be argued?

Also, did you read my rationale for placing LoZ and AoL where I did? What were your issues with my rationale (besides the quotes you are referring to)?

Nonono. I put the one's that can't be argued up top. I said the others can be safely put after Twilight Princess. Not the same thing. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[BamaLynx]

Nonono. I put the one's that can't be argued up top. I said the others can be safely put after Twilight Princess. Not the same thing. Sorry for the confusion.

Oh, I see what your saying now. So I guess we agree on those few games that "can't be argued".

And actually I found the Developer Timeline Quotes page that is pinned at the top and run by Mases, and honestly, the quotes actually make me more confident in my timeline. Mainly because Miyamoto is all over the place with his comments. He seems to change, or not know, the order every other year. Which basically tells me that developer quotes are not a reliable source to develop a timeline from...it really points to the fact that there honestly isn't a true timeline. But it's fun for fans, and based on the in-game data that I've used, I really feel like I've got a pretty good one going at this point.

I'd really like to hear about any flaws in my logic, or false assumptions that I've made, in order to amend and make it better. Any thoughts in that area?

 

[JuicieJ]

Oh, I see what your saying now. So I guess we agree on those few games that "can't be argued".

And actually I found the Developer Timeline Quotes page that is pinned at the top and run by Mases, and honestly, the quotes actually make me more confident in my timeline. Mainly because Miyamoto is all over the place with his comments. He seems to change, or not know, the order every other year. Which basically tells me that developer quotes are not a reliable source to develop a timeline from...it really points to the fact that there honestly isn't a true timeline. But it's fun for fans, and based on the in-game data that I've used, I really feel like I've got a pretty good one going at this point.

I'd really like to hear about any flaws in my logic, or false assumptions that I've made, in order to amend and make it better. Any thoughts in that area?

I don't really want to get into Zelda logic with placement of games, especially for the first two. There's just so much that wasn't written back then. The only thing we can go by is what was intended when they were first made. But I can say that Spirit Tracks was obviously a direct sequel to Phantom Hourglass. Just a couple generations down. How? Well, first off, the place is spoken of as if it's only been inhabited by them recently. And who other to tell it best than Niko? OH! That's the main thing. Niko. He's in Spirit Tracks, and he's the same Niko from Phantom Hourglass. Impossible for any game (in existance) to go in-between PH and ST.

 

[BamaLynx]

I don't really want to get into Zelda logic with placement of games, especially for the first two. There's just so much that wasn't written back then. The only thing we can go by is what was intended when they were first made. But I can say that Spirit Tracks was obviously a direct sequel to Phantom Hourglass. Just a couple generations down. How? Well, first off, the place is spoken of as if it's only been inhabited by them recently. And who other to tell it best than Niko? OH! That's the main thing. Niko. He's in Spirit Tracks, and he's the same Niko from Phantom Hourglass. Impossible for any game (in existance) to go in-between PH and ST.

Okay, good. Those are the types of things that I am looking for. PH and ST are my weak points, because I honestly haven't played those games yet, and so my information and feelings are limited. However, one thing you seem to be implying is that if a game is a sequel to another, then it has to be immediately after it in the timeline. I don't think I agree with that. As long as the sequel shares characters (or character-types) and general feeling, then there is nothing wrong with placing slightly unrelated stories in between them. It's basically presenting different viewpoints in the same setting at different times. So ST can still be a "sequel" to PH, but have games/stories in between them.

With respect to Niko...now that you mention it, I was slightly aware that Niko is basically in all the "toon" games. That is definitely a flaw in the logic. But I'm not sure if it's enough for me completely rearrange everything quite yet. There is still more evidence for what I have at this point, but that point is definitely in my vault. Tingle has this same characteristic (he seems to exist across large spans of time), so who knows....maybe Tingle is his father

 

[Oni Cucco]

change LoZ and AoL between Alttp and OoX and you are done to me, I cant suggest you where the FS series can fit well

 

[BamaLynx]

change LoZ and AoL between Alttp and OoX and you are done to me, I cant suggest you where the FS series can fit well

Similar conversation I was having with ole JuiceJ, and I appreciate the input, but what is your rationale for that suggestion? TIA.

 

[JuicieJ]

Okay, good. Those are the types of things that I am looking for. PH and ST are my weak points, because I honestly haven't played those games yet, and so my information and feelings are limited. However, one thing you seem to be implying is that if a game is a sequel to another, then it has to be immediately after it in the timeline. I don't think I agree with that. As long as the sequel shares characters (or character-types) and general feeling, then there is nothing wrong with placing slightly unrelated stories in between them. It's basically presenting different viewpoints in the same setting at different times. So ST can still be a "sequel" to PH, but have games/stories in between them.

With respect to Niko...now that you mention it, I was slightly aware that Niko is basically in all the "toon" games. That is definitely a flaw in the logic. But I'm not sure if it's enough for me completely rearrange everything quite yet. There is still more evidence for what I have at this point, but that point is definitely in my vault. Tingle has this same characteristic (he seems to exist across large spans of time), so who knows....maybe Tingle is his father

Oh, I'm definately not saying that it has to come right after the previous game. I was just saying that it's obvious Spirit Tracks took place just a couple generations down the line. There's no way both LoZ and ALttP could have taken place in-between them. In timespan between them, yeah, the could, but just remember that Ganon was in them. Ganondorf was sealed at the bottom of the Great Sea in The Wind Waker without his Triforce piece. There's no coming back for him. So, that also prevents the original two games from taking place on the "adult timeline."

 

[BamaLynx]

Oh, I'm definately not saying that it has to come right after the previous game. I was just saying that it's obvious Spirit Tracks took place just a couple generations down the line. There's no way both LoZ and ALttP could have taken place in-between them. In timespan between them, yeah, the could, but just remember that Ganon was in them. Ganondorf was sealed at the bottom of the Great Sea in The Wind Waker without his Triforce piece. There's no coming back for him. So, that also prevents the original two games from taking place on the "adult timeline."

I see what your saying about the generations thing, and that is something I'll have to consider.

In regards to Ganondorf/Ganon, you may not have actually read the post completely (yes, it is long, i realize) but as I mentioned in my assumptions: Ganondorf is an earthly body that can be killed with the Master Sword. Ganon is the unearthly spirit of Ganondorf that can only be killed with the Silver Arrows. That is one major reason why those games are on the Adult Timeline...on the Child Timeline "Ganondorf" was killed in TP and "Ganon" was killed in ALttP (so he is completely gone at that point). On the Adult Timeline "Ganondorf" was killed in WW and "Ganon" was killed in LoZ (so that is when he is completely gone from that side of the timeline).