Spoiler Time Paradoxes

[oshi_yoshi]

I was secretly hoping that Nintendo makes two timelines out of it. On purpose, not the mess that happened when they didn't pay attention to what they were doing with the stories.
I BLAME GHIRAHIM. He's the one that stole Zelda and did all of his freaky ritual dance moves.
Here's my bit of the insanity.
If Link could've beaten Ghirahim faster in the past, that would have resulted in SS. Demise would still be sealed, and the seal would have been weakened already, allowing the escape.
But, since Link did defeat Demise, none of them should've even been on the surface or have any recollection of what happened. That could've caused a split where they remained on the surface with memories, and the other half of time had them never leave Skyloft in the first place.
Obviously the series is based off the instance where they remain on the surface and found Hyrule. Link and Zelda staying makes total sense, but Groose.... Zelda is sealed in the crystal anyway, and Link comes back through the GoT. Groose is just kinda there.
As for the sword... Something like a rift was created when Link goes through the Gate.
Or, we could all put this off to the excuse we've been using for years. ZELDA MAGIC.

 

[Terminus]

I'm afraid the middle is a bit confusing. Could you spell it out in a timeline format? Also, the timeline is ugly enough as it is what with the failure split.

 

[Shadsie]

I was actually thinking about this very topic today. I'm serious. I watched a new episode of Futurama that dealt with time travel - someone trying to prevent a dystopia, only to have their existance erased and everyone in the cast forget their existance because Time corrected itself. Futurama plays with time travel a lot but manages to keep their continuity tight because paradoxes are taken care of in various harsh and hilarious ways. Except for one or two incidences when a time paradox destroyed the entirety of the universe...

Ur, for those who don't watch that series... eh. It just got me thinking about how things are very loosey-goosey in the Zelda universe(s) in regards to Time.

Keeping it to Skyward Sword - I'm not even thinking "loose" in terms of the overreaching story... I've been scratching my head since December (when I got the game) over the "little" things.

Examples:

Groose imagines that the Sealed Temple would look good with a tree. Link fetches the tree of life seedling and plants it in the Sealed Temple in the past. He goes through the Gate of Time and there's Groose, happily admiring the tree. From Groose's perspective, we can guess that the tree had always been there, but not from Link's perspective. Does this mean that Link created an alternate universe or has just phased through universes due to the actions of planting a tree that had not been planted before?

On the topic of the healing tree of life: Schrodinger's Dragon. Is the Thunder Dragon both dead and alive in the present?

Rusted robot remains blocking mining carts in Lanayru Desert. Link goes back in time to beat up on the bokoblins that are menacing the living robots and making them cower. They move. In the future/present, the rusted remains of robots are nicely out of the way.

... Maybe all Link is doing is creating a stable-time-loop and his actions actually *correct* history (like another time travel epic - one that I grew up watching as a kid, "Quantum Leap" tried to do - "To set right what once went wrong"). However, from Link's perspective (which the player sees), he is seeing things different than the rest of the world is as Time's corrective-agent. Will this screw up his mind and drive him insane?

And the thing that really tears it: I noticed something in this game that I'm not sure is a mistake, something left in for programming convience, or something that was purposefully left in just to mess with our heads... You might not have noticed it, but I did, and I double-checked it when I went back to my game on Hero Mode - there is a puzzle that apparently exists outside of Time on the Sandship. It's when you're trying to get into one of the engine-rooms. There is a metal block you have to move in order to shoot an arrow onto a marker in order to open a room. You have to move the block in the present/future and shoot the arrow through a rusted fan then. You move the block out of the way in the present/future - this is important. However, you have to Timeshift to the past in order to activate the engine in the engine-room and that entails coming back through the room you solved the puzzle. The block you had to move? IT'S MOVED IN THE PAST.

And, no, it wasn't moved before. I looked in on the room and its block in the past before I moved it in the future. Apparently, moving the block in the future *does* move it in the past!

TAKE THAT, CAUSALITY!

 

[Terminus]

The timeshift stones don't actually send you into the past. They just create a temporal field MIMICKING the past.

 

[,PlasticIce]

AnimeHat ..Since this is my first time doing one of these bear with me because I write ALOT x]
But don't worry , I think I've solved the first one at least

Here are my thoughts:

1) Because Link defeated/sealed Demise in the end of SS and placed the Master Sword into the pedestal, it probably means there were no more monsters or enemies left to bring havoc to temple. This idea is explained about twice in the game where you helped Batreaux the demon. When Batreaux became a human, monsters were no longer in Skyloft during the night times, and it is implied that dark aura brings about monsters. Fi also identifies Demise with a dark aura, and tells us he is the leader of the monsters existing at the time. (Now to get back to the topic) This means that when Demise was vanquished, there were no more of his servants to destroy the temple (as the Imprisoned tried to) so when Link placed the Master Sword into the pedestal, there was no one to lift the sword up and take it away. Technically, if you leave something secured int he past, it should appear in the future the way you left it. Kinda like a time capsule

Extra Bits: Two swords were probably not created at the same time, but the two swords (Master Sword and Goddess Sword) along with the Harps and all of the Hero's Gifts left behind by Hylia for A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME.
Idea: When Link went to the past at any time right after Hylia sealed Demise and gave up her Goddess-hood he carried the Hero's Gifts, The Goddess Harp, and the Hero's Gifts. At that point, Hylia's Goddess Sword and her Harp (perhaps along with Fi) and the Hero's Gifts that she was about to place away for Link to find in the future would have co-existed in the PAST when Link came to re-seal and defeat Demise. By that time the Goddess Sword would have been placed in the Goddess Statue along with Fi so that Link would use it as intended, which is what he did when he came to the PAST then put the sword back into the pedestal to return to his own time. However, when he returned to his own time, the Goddess Sword would not be in the Goddess Statues because the Master Sword IS the Goddess Sword in the point in time because he would have already used it to gain the Master Sword.

2) We have to look at the story through Link's eyes. The story begins with the entire story. Link defeats The Imprisoned several times and Zelda maintains that seal until Link can go into the PAST to go defeat Demise forever. After Demise is destroyed along with his Imprisoned form in the original time, it is true that the entire quest should not have happened as soon as Demise was defeated. But lets nto look at this with our logic. Lets look at this with the trends that run in the Zelda series.
We know that
1. Demise seems to have conquered time
2. Traveling in time creates a split-timeline scenario

Based on the fact that Demise seems to have conquered time, the idea of a time paradox like this could just be dismissed by using that excuse. Yeah, solving the paradox by using another paradox to explain the other, but since I don't have any ideas or theories to explain that, I'm just putting my 2 cents in there.

2) Time travel created quite a number of theory-solving in the Zelda series. Which is why I LOVE Zelda so much! Now, if your not familiar with Timelines beyond the Zelda franchise, then you might wanna hold on. Im not sure of your knowledge on the situation.

Think of the Skyward Sword story as a straight line. A VERY LONG ONE

<-(War Period)-(Hylia's Sealing of Demise)-(Skyloft Creation)--(Link's Quest)--(Zelda's Sealing)--(Zelda Recovered)--(Girahim to the Past)->

(correct me if I missed something)
Now at the last bit of the storyline Link must go back in time to seal Demise away. So from "(Girahim to the Past)" *No Pun Intended* Link needs to travel back to "(Hylia's Sealing of Demise)". After his destruction, when Link goes back to his own time it must have been as though NOTHING Link did would have ever happened because there was no need to vanquish a Demise that never existed in that point in time. But, why is everyone the way he left them? The only way for this to happen was that Link unknowingly created a news split-timeline.


-Skyloft Creation-Link's Quest-Zelda's Sealing-Zelda Recovered-Imprisoned Dead-Girahim to the Past-Demise's Defeat
(Hylia's Seal Demise)-/ ^
\(Skyloft Creation)--(Girahim Return's To Past)-(Link Defeating Them Both)-(Re-written Future)->

Now heres an over analyzation. Notice the straight arrow that links one split line to the other? I think thats when Link must've used the Gate of time to RETURN to that other timeline where everything was as it is. But at that point Link would have already gone through the gate to defeat Demise, so once he came back out it was concluded that he defeated Demise upon his return.

ONE LAST IDEA: I dont think it really made sense to go back in time to kill Demise. We already saw that Girahim going back in time created a Split, so he would not have been causing havoc in their time, but another. Demise also conquered time, but his grip on time must have been destroyed when the Imprisoned was crushed. When he was defeated in the future by the TRIFORCE, it was made certain in his own timeline that he existed that he would have had his days numbered from then on. He would only be able to live from the times he broke out as the Imprisoned onto the day when he got trampled on by The Goddess Statue.

(War Period)-(Demise vs Goddess Hylia)-(Sealing Away)-(Being Destroyed by the Triforce in one point in Time)->(Saved World Continues)->
\
\-(Girahim Returns)-(Link Defeats Them)--->(Saved World Continues)-->

That's why in my opinion, it didn't make sense to go back in time, you would not be saving yourself but another world at another time while your world was already saved because the Triforce defeated Demise already. I guess the only person left to defeat was Girahim. In other words, the whole thing (in my opinion) was about saving two timelines, that in the end had the exact same result, success!

So thats my thoughts lol..sorry for dragging it on! Tell me your thoughts if you're confused, tell me your opinion!

REMEMBER: THIS ENTIRE POST IS BASED ON MY THOUGHTS AND OPINION, I AM NOT CLAIMING THESE AS FACTS.

 

[Taien]

Two things to remember

1. The game is told from the viewpoint of Link - ergo the actions of others in the past are visible from the word go but the actions of Link himself are performed by the player... this is why Zelda is visible in the crystal and Impa is wearing Zelda's bracelet because these are actions performed by Zelda. Link's actions in the past do not carry into the present until the player performs them. (Defeating Demise, leaving the tree of life in the past, leaving the master sword in the pedestal).

In other words Zelda's actions are fixed and unchangeable... it is only Link's actions that are in flux.

2. It is also worth noting that Zelda uses a different gate of time to go into the past and that, may be why we see the effects of her actions in the past throughout the game but only see Link's after he has performed them. The reason for there being a second gate of time may be to ensure that the two timelines can merge at the end of the game. Both Zelda's Timeline (In which she maintains the seal on the imprisoned and buys the hero time to reforge the Mastersword and find the triforce) and the hero's timeline (in which he defeats Demise in the past and leaves the Mastersword behind to dispel Demise's conciousness) run parrallel at the end of the game - both set of events happened because one could not happen without the other having also have happened - one history does not overwrite the other. At the end of the game the timelines are merged and we see the effects of both Link and Zelda's actions in the past and present.

 

[Mask-Salesman]

I love these kind of paradoxes from Nintendo. Guess you shouldn't overthink these things to much, since they just don't make sense. Like learning the Song of Storms from the Windmill guy in OoT as an adult, while you teached it to him while youre a child.

 

[Deleted member 14134]

The first theory doesn't make sense when you take the second theory into consideration. Link seals demise, causing the events of the game to never happen. He places the sword in the sealed temple. Since the events of the game now didn't happen there is no reason for the sword to be inside the goddess statue in the now changed timeline. When the sword was in there at the beginning of the game Demise hadn't been sealed. It wasn't until link went back in time to change the events of the present that allowed the sword to stay in the sealed grounds.

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

Actually the Goddess sword was still in the Goddess statue in the past, link got the sword in the present and through the course of the game he upgraded it into the Master Sword. Placing it into the pedastal in the past has nothing to do with the pre-exhisting Goddess Sword which would still be in the Goddess statue, basically he moved it from one place to another and that is all. The reason you don't actually see the sword in the pedastal in the present prior to him placing it there in the past is simply that it wouldn't have been seen there until he actually put it in the pedastal, cause and effect stuff just applying it to time travel that's all this is.

As for Demise... well there just is no way to explain it.

 

[g-whiz]

The sword thing isn't a big deal. The Goddess Sword can be wherever it needs to be, wherever it was, wherever it's supposed to be etc. so long as it gets picked up, turned into the Master Sword and left where it's supposed to be in the end.

The Demise thing has bothered me since the first time I played the game and I have two minor theories about it.

1. There was a timeline split. Nintendo has done it before and they did it again. This time, there was a timeline where Link lost and someone else came along and resealed Demise. This turned him back into The Imprisoned making him ripe for the three whoopings you dish out during the game.
OR
2. The Imprisoned you fight early on in the game isn't Demise. Something else came along AFTER the battle and was bad enough that someone used the strongest seal they knew about that wasn't being used to pacify it OR it somehow learned the (future) history of Demise and The Imprisoned and figured out a way to charge itself up using the divine power of the Skyward Strikes so it intentionally took Demise's place in The Sealed Grounds and waited for the fight(s).

Admittedly, both of these are a bit of a stretch.