The Niche

[startimer]

Hey there, It's been awhile.
There are too many details to keep track of and I change my mind too much for me to develop a full timeline (if there's still one in my sig ignore it, I haven't updated it in months.), but I will sometimes put a few little pieces together.

That aside, I've been playing the Oracle titles a lot recently, and examining them in detail. There's a cozy little niche on the timeline that the games fit into nicely, and while you probably already figured this out yourself, I think I might as well post it just for the heck of it.

First of all, the facts:

1. Twinrova
Twinrova is alive. They/she/it died in OoT, but are still alive on the child timeline. Sure, you could dismiss this as a simple cameo or minor detail, but seriously; They're the main antagonists, penultimate boss and driving force behind the events of both games. That goes beyond a cameo. Oracles go on the child timeline.

2. Ganon
Ganon is dead. DEAD dead. The plot of the games revolves around Twinrova trying to revive him.So far ganons died in, let's see... LoZ, ALttP, WW, and TP. Whether he died or not in WW and TP is debateble, but I'll include them anyway, since they get ruled out eventually. LoZ and ALttp work fine, for now, so let's look at the others. WW is on the adult timeline, It is Ganondorf and not Ganon that died, Whether he's actually dead is debateable, plus he's on the bottom of the ocean with a sword in his head. Taken alone, most of those details could be dismissed, but altogether WW get's ruled out. Same for TP: he died in human form and his death is debatable. TP could still work, but let's look at the last point...

3. The Triforce
While the triforce doesn't play a much of a part in the story of the oracle titles, it's still thier. Starting up either game treats you to a nice scene where link finds the triforce in a castle.
Now, looking at the games I picked out before...
In WW, the triforce scatters, and it's not clear (at least to me) what becomes of it, but WW is ruled out anyway. I'm also not sure what happened to it in TP, fill me in if you want, but I'm still pretty sure TP is out. ALttP makes it very clear that the Triforce was left in the sacred realm. And in LoZ/Aol... Link finds all three of the pieces through the course of both games, and places the completed triforce in North Palace.

Now, see where this niche is? THe castle you see in the intro would be North Palace. OoX falls on the child timeline, directly (not imediately, just with no other titles in between) after AoL. It fits. It works.

What do you think? Sound logical enough? Or do you disagree?

EDIT: Note that this is from an OoX prospective. Other evidence could put LoZ/AoL on the Adult timeline, but I'm not really looking at LoZ/AoL. THis is about where OoX fits best.

 

[Locke]

2. Ganon
Ganon is dead. DEAD dead. The plot of the games revolves around Twinrova trying to revive him.So far ganons died in, let's see... LoZ, ALttP, WW, and TP. Whether he died or not in WW and TP is debateble, but I'll include them anyway, since they get ruled out eventually. LoZ and ALttp work fine, for now, so let's look at the others. WW is on the adult timeline, It is Ganondorf and not Ganon that died, Whether he's actually dead is debateable, plus he's on the bottom of the ocean with a sword in his head. Taken alone, most of those details could be dismissed, but altogether WW get's ruled out. Same for TP: he died in human form and his death is debatable. TP could still work, but let's look at the last point...

Ganondorf is Ganon. There isn't quite enough evidence that I know of to definitively say that Ganon can't survive after Ganondorf's death, but the opposite is also true. When Ganondorf was sealed in OoT, there's no reason to say Ganon wasn't. When Ganon was sealed during the flood (evidenced by Daphnes referring to him as Ganon rather than Ganondorf until they actually meet), there's no reason to say Ganondorf wasn't. When Ganondorf died in WW, it follows that there is no reason to assume that Ganon didn't die with him.

As Zenox said in your timeline thread, you're resolving one issue by Ganon being consistent between AoL and OoX, but creating another between OoX and LttP. However, there will be an inconsistency somewhere so this isn't a huge issue. You might consider using FSA to introduce a new Ganondorf between OoX and LttP, then placing the SW after FSA. There are other problems with that placement, but it might alleviate this one for now, and you haven't placed it anywhere else anyway.

3. The Triforce
While the triforce doesn't play a much of a part in the story of the oracle titles, it's still thier. Starting up either game treats you to a nice scene where link finds the triforce in a castle.
Now, looking at the games I picked out before...
In WW, the triforce scatters, and it's not clear (at least to me) what becomes of it, but WW is ruled out anyway. I'm also not sure what happened to it in TP, fill me in if you want, but I'm still pretty sure TP is out. ALttP makes it very clear that the Triforce was left in the sacred realm. And in LoZ/Aol... Link finds all three of the pieces through the course of both games, and places the completed triforce in North Palace.

Now, see where this niche is? THe castle you see in the intro would be North Palace. OoX falls on the child timeline, directly (not imediately, just with no other titles in between) after AoL. It fits. It works.

It's not clear what happened in TP. Ganondorf lost the ToP, I think Link and Zelda may have kept their parts, but I don't remember if that was shown. Sheik's(?) quote about balance (and Ganondorf's removed quote) demands that the ToP find a new host, or maybe all three might have returned to the SR. So I agree that ToX doesn't work TP-OoX.

I don't see how it is made clear that the ToX is left in the SR at the end of LttP. On the contrary, we have evidence from both AoL and LttP that the ToX remains with its keeper until it is destroyed. In AoL, the writer of the scroll states the King ruled with the power of the ToX. In LttP, it remained in Ganon's possession (indirectly) until Link killed him. So one can assume that Link keeps the Triforce at the end of LttP.

And if making a wish causes it to return to the SR (see this post), then it doesn't fit after AoL either.

 

[startimer]

Ganondorf is Ganon. There isn't quite enough evidence that I know of to definitively say that Ganon can't survive after Ganondorf's death, but the opposite is also true. When Ganondorf was sealed in OoT, there's no reason to say Ganon wasn't. When Ganon was sealed during the flood (evidenced by Daphnes referring to him as Ganon rather than Ganondorf until they actually meet), there's no reason to say Ganondorf wasn't. When Ganondorf died in WW, it follows that there is no reason to assume that Ganon didn't die with him.

As Zenox said in your timeline thread, you're resolving one issue by Ganon being consistent between AoL and OoX, but creating another between OoX and LttP. However, there will be an inconsistency somewhere so this isn't a huge issue. You might consider using FSA to introduce a new Ganondorf between OoX and LttP, then placing the SW after FSA. There are other problems with that placement, but it might alleviate this one for now, and you haven't placed it anywhere else anyway.

It's not clear what happened in TP. Ganondorf lost the ToP, I think Link and Zelda may have kept their parts, but I don't remember if that was shown. Sheik's(?) quote about balance (and Ganondorf's removed quote) demands that the ToP find a new host, or maybe all three might have returned to the SR. So I agree that ToX doesn't work TP-OoX.

I don't see how it is made clear that the ToX is left in the SR at the end of LttP. On the contrary, we have evidence from both AoL and LttP that the ToX remains with its keeper until it is destroyed. In AoL, the writer of the scroll states the King ruled with the power of the ToX. In LttP, it remained in Ganon's possession (indirectly) until Link killed him. So one can assume that Link keeps the Triforce at the end of LttP.

And if making a wish causes it to return to the SR (see this post), then it doesn't fit after AoL either.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JU0C_l4aac
^ALttP ending. Seems that Link finds the completed Triforce in the sacred realm and wishes on it. I'd assume that it would stay there, though it doesn't nessesarilly show it.

Just wanted to get theat outta my Ctrl+v. Moving on...

I don't want to chop up the quote, I'll just try to keep this as organized as possible...

First point, about the relations between Ganon/Ganondorf... In my own personal opinion, I've alway's thought of Ganon as being a sort of "inner demon". Basically a physical manifestation of Dragmire's* own' greed.
* (mind if I use that name? Switching between Ganon/Ganondorf get's confusing, I'm thinking I might start using Dragmire/Magdrag to differentiate them)
But I don't want to get off topic. There is the possibility that Magdrag could become independant from Dragmire at some point, but the is no indication of that. (Now that I think of it, that could be used to seal some plotholes... Hm.). What I was trying to get at with the Human/Beast thing is that if he died in human form, he would likely be revived in human form aswell.

Second point, about the inconsistancies. When I first established this connection, I really wasn't focussing on the timeline as a whole, just these games individually. But it's hard to avoid this inconsistancy. I mean, Ganon dies 4 times, and he's only revived once (and dies shortly after). If you assume Ganon didn't die in TP or WW, then put LoZ and ALttP on seperate timelines it would work, but I'm not completely willing to accept that. And what you said about Magdrag surviving Dragmire's death... that could solve some things. But I'd need to think more into it. Really, OoX could technically fit after these, it just seems to me that it follows AoL really nicely.

Third point, about the triforce. TP is really confusing as to how it moves around, I don't even get how Ganondorf ended up with it in the first place. But no matter, it seems we both think it wouldn't work. I gave the video about ALttP at the start of the post. That leaves AoL... While non-canon, the TV series/valient comics/CD-I games have the triforce placed in the towers of North Palace after the events of AoL. However, aside from thier lack of canonicy (word?), these were all made before the nature of the triforce had been fully developed, so a retcon is possible.

Timeline... can't fill one plothole without tearing open another.

 

[Sasuke Uchiha]

One major problem you made in your recolection (with the Twinrova comments and other comments on the "children Link dimension") is that the children Link aren't the same and don't grow up into the same older Link from SS. The "children series" is in one Master Swordless dimension after OoT. The Link from WW and PH could not possibly grow up into the older Link from SS because all of the children games take place after the dimension split (at the end of Oot). All of that means that the Adult Link in SS grew up from sometime before OoT, and all children games occur afterwards. You know this because the Master Sword, which this Link forges, appears before the split. His childhood could not possibly have been told in previous games, because there haven't been any children games before OoT. This all means, that he lived before OoT and forged the Master Sword, which the Link from OoT later uses.

 

[startimer]

One major problem you made in your recolection (with the Twinrova comments and other comments on the "children Link dimension") is that the children Link aren't the same and don't grow up into the same older Link from SS. The "children series" is in one Master Swordless dimension after OoT. The Link from WW and PH could not possibly grow up into the older Link from SS because all of the children games take place after the dimension split (at the end of Oot). All of that means that the Adult Link in SS grew up from sometime before OoT, and all children games occur afterwards. You know this because the Master Sword, which this Link forges, appears before the split. His childhood could not possibly have been told in previous games, because there haven't been any children games before OoT. This all means, that he lived before OoT and forged the Master Sword, which the Link from OoT later uses.

Wha...

I seriously don't know how to reply to this.

I mean... I never, NEVER have claimed that any of the child Links grew up to be an adult Link in another game... I seriously have no idea what gave you that impression.

Everything you just said is common knowledge, and I was already aware of it. Plus it is completely irrelevant.