The Hero Defeated In Each Timeline?

[Mhaerdel]

A lot of people were miffed by the notion that a defeated Link would be canonical, causing a timeline split. But there may be evidence that this happened on at least three occasions!

First, we need to remember the 'curse' of Demise, which seems to imply that whenever Demise's hatred is reborn, a hero will be awakened as well. If this is true, it certainly changes how we look at other events in the timeline.

Downfall Timeline:
As we know, in this timeline the Hero of Time was awakened, but for whatever reason was defeated at the hands of Ganondorf, and the sages exercised their power to seal him away, thus ending the curse for now.

Adult Timeline:
It is stated in the prologue of the Wind Waker that after Ganondorf broke the seal placed on him by the sages at the end of Ocarina of Time (and Link was alive for this one), there was no Hero to stop him. But as VortexxyGaming theorizes, there may have actually been a Hero, but he was defeated and thus not remembered in legend. Evidence of this is that Fado and and Laruto were awakened previously, presumably by a Hero (although this raises other questions, such as: Why did they need to be awakened? Had Saria and Ruto died? Why are they sages of Wind and Earth? What happened to the other sages? I suspect they lived not much later than a generation after the people in Ocarina of Time, considering Fado is a Kokiri [whose purpose ended after the Hero of Time left the forest, really], and Laruto is not only a Zora, but possibly closely related to Ruto). But everyone was expecting the Hero of Time, not this new Hero who had no relation, so he eventually fell (or maybe it was a female hero, which would further give people reason not to believe she was the chosen hero?!?)

Child Timeline:
And this brings us to the Child Timeline. Again, if it's true that a Hero must rise when Ganondorf or Demise's hatred does, then there must have been another Hero to confront Ganondorf before he was executed. But who was he?
Possibly, a new Hero could have risen to stop Ganondorf while the Hero of Time was off in Termina, if this was when the Gerudo-Hylian war took place. But I think it might be simpler than that. We already know of another Hero in Twilight Princess who is not the Ordonian Link...and that's the Hero's Shade (who is the Hero of Time). This is what I think the timeline was:
-Link is sent back in time by Zelda, creating the Child Timeline
-I believe that the spiritual stones were already gathered at this time, despite what people say. It makes sense later on, as you'll see. For one, the doors to the Master Sword remain open in this timeline.
-Link warns Zelda about Ganondorf and the King of Hyrule refuses to accept an alliance. Tensions rise between the two nations, but there is no war yet.
-The Door of Time may be open, but Ganondorf can't access the Sacred Realm to obtain the Triforce because he can't pull the Master Sword, which as we know from TP, creates a stairway into the Temple of Light, or the Sacred Realm.
-Link remains friends with Zelda, and also visits Malon and improves his relationship with her, thus earning her trust to take Epona. He travels to the Lost Woods at this time in search of Navi, and then his adventure in Termina begins.
-After Link returns to Hyrule, he decides that he wants to remain in his home of the forest, but not before courting Malon. The two settle in an area just beyond the Kokiri Forest (which becomes the Forest Temple in TP), founding the Ordona Province.
-Eventually, Ganondorf realizes he will have to attack Hyrule without the help of the Triforce, as Link has not opened the way to the Sacred Realm. Possibly many years later, Ganondorf amasses enough of a force to launch an invasion on Hyrule. It is a long and bloody war, reminiscent of the Hyrulean Civil War. Eventually, Link learns of the war and decides to help. During his time in the forest, he has become his own sort of warrior, choosing to don the emblem of the wolf on his armor in place of the green clothes he used to wear. Since the Temple of Time has actually been retconned to be within the forest, not near Castle Town, Link decides to once again pull the Master Sword from its pedestal to fight evil. Being of age now, he doesn't warp in time or anything and leaves to fight in the war. His efforts help the Hylians drive back the Gerudo to their own desert, where they eventually capture and execute all of them. But Ganondorf was made aware of the Master Sword being pulled, and had made his way to the Sacred Realm through the Temple of Time. But when he gets there, he finds no Trifoce, and cursed the Temple of Light with Armagohma (he loves cursing things with spiders) as well as placing a Gerudo Darknut there. Thus, this is the period that TP Link travels to, since the Master Sword is not there. TP Link defeats Armagohma and returns to the future. Then I guess at some point Hero of Time Link returns the Master Sword to the Temple of Time, either before confronting Ganondorf and thus being defeated because he didn't have it, or after being wounded by Ganondorf and then dying sometime later? In any case, despite his efforts, he wasn't able to stop Ganondorf and was wounded and killed before he could pass on his knowledge to his posterity. Thus he became the Hero's Shade, another fallen Hero.
-Ganondorf was eventually captured and subdued, and only at his execution did he realize he had been granted the power of the Triforce, which split when Link returned to the past. And the rest we know...

So I know that was very long and I had to fill in some gaps, but what do you think? Do think the Hero's Shade is not just a dead Hero of Time, but a fallen Hero of Time who tried to face Ganondorf? I had to add in him pulling the Master Sword at some point so that it wouldn't be there when TP Link arrives in the past, but otherwise it might have made more sense if he didn't use it at all, and that's why he fell in battle against Ganondorf. I guess it depends on whether you think TP Link was able to be transported to a different timeline or not when he returns to the Temple of Time's past...

 

[el :BeoWolf:]

Interesting theory, but there are a few immediate problems, and a few things I don't remember exactly.

Fado and and Laruto were awakened previously, presumably by a Hero (although this raises other questions, such as: Why did they need to be awakened? Had Saria and Ruto died? Why are they sages of Wind and Earth? What happened to the other sages? I suspect they lived not much later than a generation after the people in Ocarina of Time, considering Fado is a Kokiri [whose purpose ended after the Hero of Time left the forest, really], and Laruto is not only a Zora, but possibly closely related to Ruto)

The reason we have Earth and Wind sages is to maintain the Master sword's ability to repel evil. These sages have nothing to do with the forest and water sages, they just happen to be the same race as far as I can tell. Also the sages of OoT are rather strange because it sometimes seems they died to become sages such as Darunia, and Impa, but in TP the other sages are alive, and even in OoT Ruto doesn't seems to die she just disappears. This has always confused me. As to why no hero showed up, I do believe there was, but they weren't the hero of time that people were looking for, so they were never seen as an actual hero, and faded into history.

if it's true that a Hero must rise when Ganondorf or Demise's hatred does, then there must have been another Hero to confront Ganondorf before he was executed. But who was he?
Possibly, a new Hero could have risen to stop Ganondorf while the Hero of Time was off in Termina

There has never been more than one hero at a time. This also is why there's "The spirit of the hero" as in only one.
Also he was to be executed for what he had planned in OoT and the execution took place several years after OoT and MM.

the order of events goes as such to my understanding
. Zelda sends Link to the point in time right before he first pulls the master sword
. Link, instead of drawing the sword, turns around takes the stones, and warns Zelda of what would've happened
He also has earned the Triforce of courage by this point.

. After hearing what would have occurred Zelda entrusts Link with the OoT and sends him away with Epona. By this point I believe Malon and Link's relationship was in good enough standing to allow him to borrow Epona for a time. Also as for what became of the spiritual stones, I believe they were returned to their respective races, or something else, that's a whole other theory in itself
. Months pass as Link searches for what's heavily implied to be Navi.
Eventually Link ends up in Termina and the events of Majora's Mask occur.
. Link saves Termina, and leaves. What becomes of him after is mostly speculation, so here's what I'd like to believe

* Link accepts the loss of Navi and returns home. This goes into the Majora's Mask grief theory
* at some point Gannon is suppose to be executed, but survives and gains the Triforce of Power for an unknown reason
* Link grows up, and eventually marries Malon, and they have kids
* Link also becomes a high ranking soldier for Hyrule. Gaining the Armor of the Hero's shade.
* He eventually creates the hidden skills.
* An event occurs that causes Hyrule to find new territory, whether it was an invasion or natural disaster. This is why I believe the map is different between OoT and TP
*Over time Link laments the fact he wasn't remembered as a hero
* He eventually dies, and becomes the Hero's Shade, and after some time Link from TP is born and the events of TP occur

 

[Mhaerdel]

Interesting theory, but there are a few immediate problems, and a few things I don't remember exactly.

The reason we have Earth and Wind sages is to maintain the Master sword's ability to repel evil. These sages have nothing to do with the forest and water sages, they just happen to be the same race as far as I can tell. Also the sages of OoT are rather strange because it sometimes seems they died to become sages such as Darunia, and Impa, but in TP the other sages are alive, and even in OoT Ruto doesn't seems to die she just disappears. This has always confused me. As to why no hero showed up, I do believe there was, but they weren't the hero of time that people were looking for, so they were never seen as an actual hero, and faded into history.

There has never been more than one hero at a time. This also is why there's "The spirit of the hero" as in only one.
Also he was to be executed for what he had planned in OoT and the execution took place several years after OoT and MM.

Considering Earth and Wind sages have only ever appeared in the Wind Waker, it's hard to say whether there have always been such sages. Whenever there is an outlying detail like that, I wouldn't place too much weight on it.

As for there being more than one hero at a time: Yes, there has been. The Hero's Shade is implied to be the Hero of Time, existing and conversing with TP Link. Plus, there is lots of evidence that in ALBW, the old man "gramps" is the former Link, once again co-existing with the younger Link. The spirit of the Hero is not a spirit/ghost that gets reincarnated. It's metaphorical; one who possesses the 'kind of spirit required of the Hero.' If this is not how you see it, I'm afraid the evidence is against you.

the order of events goes as such to my understanding
---snip---
* Link also becomes a high ranking soldier for Hyrule. Gaining the Armor of the Hero's shade.
* He eventually creates the hidden skills.
* An event occurs that causes Hyrule to find new territory, whether it was an invasion or natural disaster. This is why I believe the map is different between OoT and TP
*Over time Link laments the fact he wasn't remembered as a hero
* He eventually dies, and becomes the Hero's Shade, and after some time Link from TP is born and the events of TP occur

I have some problems with your ideas. The Hero's Shade armor looks nothing like anything a Hyrulean knight would wear; and the fact that it is implied that his posterity stayed in the Ordona province south of the Kokiri Forest means that he wouldn't be at Hyrule long-term. Also, you need to realize that the Temple of Time was retconned to be in the forest, not in Castle Town. This explains the discrepancy between OoT and TP maps. Everything else about the locations match up. So there was no mass migration of Hyrule farther northward. I am positive that this is what the developers intended.
Finally, you didn't really address my point that a Hero would need to be present every time Ganondorf is a threat. If Ganondorf launched an invasion on Hyrule, that would pose quite a threat, don't you think? My theory is simply that the Hero's Shade was that Hero who rose up to Ganondorf (for the second time in his own life, but the first for that timeline), but fell and was not remembered as a hero, despite having defeated Ganondorf once before in the adult timeline. Why he failed is unclear; the fact that his spirit is not wearing the Hero's clothes could indicate he was no longer a chosen hero at that time, and was unable to wield the Master Sword, and thus Ganondorf was able to defeat him.

 

[el :BeoWolf:]

As for there being more than one hero at a time: Yes, there has been. The Hero's Shade is implied to be the Hero of Time, existing and conversing with TP Link. Plus, there is lots of evidence that in ALBW, the old man "gramps" is the former Link, once again co-existing with the younger Link. The spirit of the Hero is not a spirit/ghost that gets reincarnated. It's metaphorical; one who possesses the 'kind of spirit required of the Hero.' If this is not how you see it, I'm afraid the evidence is against you.

That's true. The spirit of the hero is probably just a series of traits that are looked for to decide who the hero will be rather than a literal spirit.
TP Link and the hero's shade would make me think, in that case, there can only be one living hero, but then there is the case with gramps in ALBW. He is very similar to Link, and can even wield the master sword. Although Link doesn't necessarily have to be the only one who can wield it. Just someone who is worthy of being a hero. Also it's said he is 80 years old, and ALBW supposedly takes places centuries after Link's Awakening.

The Hero's Shade armor looks nothing like anything a Hyrulean knight would wear; and the fact that it is implied that his posterity stayed in the Ordona province south of the Kokiri Forest means that he wouldn't be at Hyrule long-term.

It could be special armor given to Link, or possibly he forged it himself. I personally think it indicates some sort of special rank in the knights of Hyrule. We only ever see what appears to be guards.
I'd also like to know where it was implied he stayed in Kokiri forest?

the Temple of Time was retconned to be in the forest, not in Castle Town. This explains the discrepancy between OoT and TP maps. Everything else about the locations match up. So there was no mass migration of Hyrule farther northward. I am positive that this is what the developers intended.

I always assumed the master sword was moved into the forest for whatever reason. Some of the locations do line up, but the issue I have is how dramatically the map changes. Also how an entire gorge formed near Kakariko village between OoT and TP

the Hero's Shade was that Hero who rose up to Ganondorf (for the second time in his own life, but the first for that timeline), but fell and was not remembered as a hero, despite having defeated Ganondorf once before in the adult timeline.

But Ganondorf was executed a few years after the events OoT/MM. After Link warns Zelda of what would've taken place. I imagine they wouldn't allow Ganondorf to run freely. He most likely would've been held in prison during that time.
Also the Hero's Shade was not remembered as a hero, because he lives in the timeline where much of OoT never happened, and in MM no one, except for a few individuals, knew that it was Link who saved Termina.

so you are correct that there can be more than one Link as seen in TP with Link and the Hero's shade, although the Hero's shade isn't alive. Also Gramps and Link in ALBW. That needs a bit more evidence imo to really prove that's Gramps is Link from ALttP. I just need confirmation on Gramps's age, and how long between ALttP, and ALBW.

 

[Mhaerdel]

I'd also like to know where it was implied he stayed in Kokiri forest?

Well the implication is that TP Link is descended from OoT Link and Malon, hence being a rancher and knowing Epona's song, as well as the horse being descended from the original. Ordon Village is basically within Faron Woods, and not far from the Lost Woods where we see Skull Kid, as well as the "Forest Temple", which is heavily implied to have been the Kokiri settlement (else why do all the doors have Kokiri symbols on them? Why is the 'temple' more like a treetop village that's been abandoned?).

I always assumed the master sword was moved into the forest for whatever reason. Some of the locations do line up, but the issue I have is how dramatically the map changes. Also how an entire gorge formed near Kakariko village between OoT and TP

I never liked the theory that Hyrule shifted northward nor that the Master Sword was moved southward. I think what was intended was to retcon the location of the Temple of Time to be in the forest--in other words, OoT is wrong in that regard. And we see that Nintendo has held to this retcon in Skyward Sword. As for other geological differences, I think that's just an artistic difference in the representation of Hyrule. The lands of Hyrule were more "reimagined" for Twilight Princess, not so much "changed".

But Ganondorf was executed a few years after the events OoT/MM. After Link warns Zelda of what would've taken place. I imagine they wouldn't allow Ganondorf to run freely. He most likely would've been held in prison during that time.
Also the Hero's Shade was not remembered as a hero, because he lives in the timeline where much of OoT never happened, and in MM no one, except for a few individuals, knew that it was Link who saved Termina.

We know that Ganondorf was executed SOMEtime after the events of OoT/MM, but I don't think we know when. And actually I think there is more evidence to support the idea that it was not immediately afterwards, but probably at the end of the Gerudo-Hylian war, which could have lasted for many years.
For example, it seems that by the time of Ganondorf's execution, the Gerudo Desert had already been conquered by the Hylians, and the Gerudo Temple (possibly the Spirit Temple) had already been occupied and converted by the Hylians/Sages into the Arbiter's Grounds, as we can see from the symbols of the sages in the Mirror Chamber. I don't think this would have happened so quickly. Plus Ganondorf appears slightly older than he did in OoT, which is further evidence that his capture was not immediately after Link tattled on him.

I agree that it can be said that the Hero's Shade's regrets of not being remembered as a hero could likely just be because he defeated Ganondorf in the other timeline, but I do still think it would be interesting if he had more of a connection to the actual events alluded to in Twilight Princess, namely during the Gerudo-Hylian War, and that at least part of his regrets were from dying in that conflict against Ganondorf. As for why he has weird armor and adopted the likeness of a wolf, we may never fully know....

 

[Deleted member 81859]

If we go by Nintendo logic and have an entire slew of games only exist by having the player get a game over, than, yeap, gr8.
(appologies if I sound rude, I'm not very fond of the canon.)

 

[el :BeoWolf:]

We know that Ganondorf was executed SOMEtime after the events of OoT/MM, but I don't think we know when

The only source that gives any sort of date I'm aware of is Hyrule Historia which says, "Many years later, Ganondorf...was finally to be executed."
Other than that, I don't know.

 

[TwiliDreamer]

The alternate timelines have always been a problem. The Zelda series works with probable endings (Hero is defeated/ Hero is victorious), so it's impossible for events in Timeline A (dead Hero of Time) to have any correlation with Timeline B (Hero of Time survived).

The best thing to do is to think that, depending on Link's outcome in OoT, we have parallel worlds where each Hyrule develops in its own way. This is coherent with the theory of Multiple Dimensions. Same world, different realities. All events have a 50/50 probability of happening. Events that didn't happen in the official reality happen in a parallel universe.

That's the easiest way to avoid thinking too much and too hard on this and end up developing a headache.


(Btw, if anyone's curious: if you think Zelda's timeline is problematic, check Sonic Archie comics genesis wave...)