The Degree of Difference

[JuicieJ]

You're wrong. That's not what I said nor implied it.

Correction. You didn't mean to imply it.

 

[Random Person]

You're wrong. That's not what I said nor implied it. I was talking about gameplay. The word "sequel" does not mean I'm only talking about story.

I was a bit frustrated when I wrote this so the wording came out rather harsh. I apologize to the forums for that as that isn't the atmosphere I'm trying to present. I'll most likely delete this comment. Anyway, I'll give a better response so this thread can get back on track.

I think you're looking at this from the wrong perspective.Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that you're assuming people criticize Twilight Princess for telling the same story as Ocarina of Time. That's not the case. As I said in an earlier post, people criticize TP for literally taking events and puzzles used from Ocarina of Time and copying them directly. One of the prime examples is the four Poes in the Arbiter's Grounds. Zelda always plays off of the same gameplay ideas, but no other Zelda title has so blatantly copied something from a previous dungeon like that. I do think TP is overly-criticized for being an OoT clone, but that doesn't meant that it isn't one. Because it most certainly is.

I was not talking about story in my response, I was talking about game play. When I say things like "sequel" and "prequel" I understand how people's minds can immediately go to story, but that isn't where my comment was leading. Like the comments before it, I was correlating the the game play of TP to the gameplay of its predecessor OoT. As a continuing sequel, TP's gameplay is similar to that of OoT's, much like other games. I did indeed use the fact that TP's story takes place after OoT's to better my arguement and show that it is a sequel in all aspects. A game can further game play all it wants, but it can't be called a direct sequel unless the story continues which is why I brought story into that comment. I do indeed believe TP was a good demonstration of sequel story, but my main point that I was referring to was that it does it in all aspects, mainly referring to game play.

 

[JuicieJ]

I was not talking about story in my response, I was talking about game play. When I say things like "sequel" and "prequel" I understand how people's minds can immediately go to story, but that isn't where my comment was leading. Like the comments before it, I was correlating the the game play of TP to the gameplay of its predecessor OoT. As a continuing sequel, TP's gameplay is similar to that of OoT's, much like other games. I did indeed use the fact that TP's story takes place after OoT's to better my arguement and show that it is a sequel in all aspects. A game can further game play all it wants, but it can't be called a direct sequel unless the story continues which is why I brought story into that comment. I do indeed believe TP was a good demonstration of sequel story, but my main point that I was referring to was that it does it in all aspects, mainly referring to game play.

It's one thing to take the same basic gameplay from one game and improve on it in another. Majora's Mask is a prime example of this. It's another to take that basic gameplay and make it basically exactly the same with no significant refinements or attempts to move it forward. Twilight Princess is a prime example of this.

Again, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with copying a successful game, but the amount that Twilight Princess copied was a little overboard. If it hadn't been a Zelda game, it would have been called a Zelda rip-off by many gamers and critics alike.

 

[Random Person]

It's one thing to take the same basic gameplay from one game and improve on it in another. Majora's Mask is a prime example of this. It's another to take that basic gameplay and make it basically exactly the same with no significant refinements or attempts to move it forward. Twilight Princess is a prime example of this.

Again, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with copying a successful game, but the amount that Twilight Princess copied was a little overboard. If it hadn't been a Zelda game, it would have been called a Zelda rip-off by many gamers and critics alike.

Using the wolf form, searching for poes, collecting golden bugs, advanced swordsman ship moves, fishing mechanics, etc... these are all concepts that were taken from OoT. Yet the concepts done in TP feel different in some way. I call it "matured" but people can call it whatever they want. There's no doubt that there were many ideas taken from OoT, but is that enough to call it a clone when all of those ideas were changed, not to mention all the other ideas TP used that didn't come from OoT.

Your comment says that TP is guilty of taking the same basic concept and going through without improvement or advancement. As I said, Zelda's uniqueness makes it seem like TP isn't changing that much in regards to game play. But if you look at a game like Halo 2 and then look at Halo 3, would you call that a bad idea for sticking to the same basic concept? I mean sure it changed a few weapons, but isn't the gameplay basically going from point A to point B using your team of shooters? (No offense to anyone who likes Halo, I love the series) What about Uncharted 3 when compared to Uncharted 2? Sure there are some slight changes, but the game still consists of shooting bad guys (or monsters), solving puzzles, and plenty of climbing. Many 007 games stuck to the same quality of using a gun, grenades and gadgets and those series are not regarded as clones of each other. Those games even have the same basic plot of "bad guy does this to tries to rule world/kill people but is stopped." And CoD... okay, bad example, but you get my point. Any off these sequels would've been called rip-offs of their predecessors if they weren't continuing their series. TP's change seems like it did very little because many of the Zelda series sequels changed so much. Comparing it to other Zelda sequels, yeah, it does seem like it stayed relatively the same. But comparing it to just sequels in general, it follows the natural course a game like it would take. Its taking what OoT has, and improving it (or changing it in a certain direction, but I like to think it improved)

Link still uses the same sword moves, but now he's got an arsenal of secret moves to learn. Link still rides Epona, but now he can use his arsenal of weapons and Epona is required for the story. Link still collects optional golden bugs for rupees using site and sound, but the design and strategic approach to finding said bugs have changed. Link still uses a special tool to help him see invisible objects, but this time it comes fully equipped with a wolf form that includes reaching higher grounds, moving faster, and a unique area attack.

That's actually more change than some of the other series I've mentioned has done and I'm intentionally sticking to the things that it kept from OoT.

I agree that Majora's Mask does indeed do a good job of drastically changing while still keeping the feel of a sequel in regards to its game play, but imo, just because TP didn't change as much as MM, doesn't mean it's a clone. I still see it as a sequel trying to improve on its roots.

If you want to make a sequel that naturally flows with its predecessor, there are going to be lots of similarities. It's the combination of those similarities and the small differences they bring that keep the game feeling like a sequel.

 

[Cfrock]

Again, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with copying a successful game, but the amount that Twilight Princess copied was a little overboard. If it hadn't been a Zelda game, it would have been called a Zelda rip-off by many gamers and critics alike.

I really don't understand how you can think Twilight Princess copied an excessive amount of things from Ocarina of Time. Let's look at three areas.

Story

Ocarina of Time barely has one. It's about as generic and clichéd as they come and there is very little in the way of character development for anyone. That's not to say it's a bad story, just not a particularly engaging one.
Twilight Princess on the otherhand has a very expansive plot, with genuine character development for Link, Midna, Colin and even Epona, it has lots of sub-plots that are actually given some meat and it has a very interesting villain dynamic.
There is only one point in which the two stories explicity mimic each other and I'll get to that later.
The point is, from a narrative stand-point, Twilight Princess is nothing like Ocarina of Time.

Gameplay

Both games are 3D Zelda and so they are inevitably going to share the fundamental gameplay features. However, Twilight Princess expands on many features of Ocarina's gameplay while adding new things as well. Take sword fighting. In Ocarina you had a thrust, horizontal and vertical swipes, a spin and a jump. In Twilight Princess you have all of those plus your hidden skills which are not automatic things like in The Wind Waker but actual maneuvers that require specific actions to perform. This adds an element of strategy, as different foes are susceptible to different types of attack, as well as skill. The combat was further deepend by the addition of horse-back battles. Yes, you could use your bow on Epona in Ocarina but it was only useful for two side-quests. Twilight Princess made actually fighting on horse-back a feature and even went as far as to give us jousts too. So combat gameplay was much deeper and more varied in Twilight Princess due to more options.
There are more items in Twilight Princess and most of them are very unique. The Spinner, Ball & Chain and Double Clawshots were quite unlike anything in the series previously. Equipping bomb arrows added an extra level to archery (as did the Hawkeye thing), and even bombs were tinkered with by way of having extra Bomb Bags instead of bigger ones, allowing you to carry more varied types. Even the Boomerang took on new functions in Twilight Princess.
Then there's the obvious addition of Wolf Link. The most evident way Majora's Mask differentiated itself from Ocarina gameplay-wise was through the transformation masks. Well Twilight Princess has its own unique transformation. Immediately that separates it from Ocarina and when you consider that the Wolf Form added more depth to combat, puzzles and even just getting around I think it would be dismissive to ignore what an impact it has on the game.
Then you have the over-world quests, like rescuing Colin from the Bulbins or protecting Telma's carriage on the way to Kakariko. Ocarina had nothing like that, it just pushed you from one dungeon to the next until you were finished.
Even the mini-games are totally different. Ocarina's just involved using your items like the bow or Bombchus. Twilight Princess had kayaking, a flying score attack game, goat herding, sumo wrestling and the Wii version had a weird little motion based game with a marble on blocks of wood (that I was terrible at). Even the fishing was greatly improved upon.

Twilight Princess did so much that was new and even the features it inevitably shares with Ocarina were given a whole new level of depth and range. The two games are very different in terms of gameplay.

Set-Pieces

This is where I'm going to address the only major sequences shared between the two games, of which I count two.
The one I alluded to earlier is the freezing of Zora's Domain. It happens in both games. However, like I said before, it felt tacked on in Ocarina of Time just to awkwardly segue into the Ice Cavern. In Twilight Princess it was a visual treat and helped develop the Zora's story more. We were better introduced to the Zora Royal Family and we saw the very real consequences of the event on the Zoras as a community as well as the knock-on effect for the rest of Hyrule. Nothing like that happened in Ocarina, it was just frozen. Again, in both games Lake Hylia was drained but it was only in Twilight Princess that we saw people actually being affected or even just notice this.
All of this just makes it seem like it was an after thought in Ocarina and that Nintendo decided to fully realise the idea in Twilight Princess. In Twilight Princess, the way you resolve the issue leads to one of the more interesting and obscure heart pieces in the game too, so even though the same basic event happens in both games, there is enough going on to clearly differentiate them and make them feel sperate.
The other major shared event is the Poe Chase in the fourth dungeon. Yes, clearly the basic idea is lifted from Ocarina's Forest Temple but the fact that you have to hunt them down in Twilight Princess as a wolf make it a very different experience. In Ocarina you just hit them with a sword or arrows until they die but in Twilight Princess they hide better, you have to sniff them out and you have to really wrestle their souls out. It's a totally different take on the same idea and is nothing close to a 'copy/paste'.
I honestly can't think of another sequence that was clearly based off of Ocarina of Time.

I don't intend to change your mind on this topic (I doubt anyone could) but I'm just trying to point out that Twilight Princess is a lot more different and unique compared to Ocarina of Time than you give it credit for. Obviously, it felt more similar for you that it did for me but to say that Twilight Princess went "overboard" in copying Ocarina of Time is a bit of an exaggeration, especially when you consider that even the most blatantly 'ripped-off' stuff was done in a completely different way in Twilight Princess.

 

[JuicieJ]

I really don't understand how you can think Twilight Princess copied an excessive amount of things from Ocarina of Time. Let's look at three areas.

Twilight Princess added a few minor things in, like you pointed out, but it's still Ocarina of Time at its core. It didn't truly deviate from its (at the time) 8 year-old predecessor, unlike Majora's Mask, the OoX, and even The Wind Waker in some ways. I think it was only fitting, since it's what many fans were wanting -- ironically, since many fans wound up complaining about it -- and it was the series' 20th anniversary, but that doesn't mean that it wasn't a clone, nor does it mean that it couldn't have tried a little bit harder to refine OoT's elements rather than repeating them. The only things it truly tried to refine were the items and story, and since many of the items were dropped after being found, it somewhat failed in that goal. It's 3D games like Majora's Mask and Skyward Sword that truly tried to mix things up in the Zelda universe, and considering that MM used the same engine as OoT did, it's really saying something that it did a better job with that than TP did.

Again, I don't have an issue with a game copying OoT, but it shouldn't rely almost completely on it for success. It should try to refine much more things than TP did.

 

[Random Person]

Twilight Princess added a few minor things in, like you pointed out, but it's still Ocarina of Time at its core. It didn't truly deviate from its (at the time) 8 year-old predecessor, unlike Majora's Mask, the OoX, and even The Wind Waker in some ways. I think it was only fitting, since it's what many fans were wanting -- ironically, since many fans wound up complaining about it -- and it was the series' 20th anniversary, but that doesn't mean that it wasn't a clone, nor does it mean that it couldn't have tried a little bit harder to refine OoT's elements rather than repeating them. The only things it truly tried to refine were the items and story, and since many of the items were dropped after being found, it somewhat failed in that goal. It's 3D games like Majora's Mask and Skyward Sword that truly tried to mix things up in the Zelda universe, and considering that MM used the same engine as OoT did, it's really saying something that it did a better job with that than TP did.

Again, I don't have an issue with a game copying OoT, but it shouldn't rely almost completely on it for success. It should try to refine much more things than TP did.

Your comment says that TP is guilty of taking the same basic concept and going through without improvement or advancement. As I said, Zelda's uniqueness makes it seem like TP isn't changing that much in regards to game play. But if you look at a game like Halo 2 and then look at Halo 3, would you call that a bad idea for sticking to the same basic concept? I mean sure it changed a few weapons, but isn't the gameplay basically going from point A to point B using your team of shooters? (No offense to anyone who likes Halo, I love the series) What about Uncharted 3 when compared to Uncharted 2? Sure there are some slight changes, but the game still consists of shooting bad guys (or monsters), solving puzzles, and plenty of climbing. Many 007 games stuck to the same quality of using a gun, grenades and gadgets and those series are not regarded as clones of each other. Those games even have the same basic plot of "bad guy does this to tries to rule world/kill people but is stopped." And CoD... okay, bad example, but you get my point. Any off these sequels would've been called rip-offs of their predecessors if they weren't continuing their series. TP's change seems like it did very little because many of the Zelda series sequels changed so much. Comparing it to other Zelda sequels, yeah, it does seem like it stayed relatively the same. But comparing it to just sequels in general, it follows the natural course a game like it would take. Its taking what OoT has, and improving it (or changing it in a certain direction, but I like to think it improved)

It's still not addressed that it's doing the exact same thing that other games which are sequels do. Do you believe the examples I gave are clones as well?

 

[JuicieJ]

It's still not addressed that it's doing the exact same thing that other games which are sequels do. Do you believe the examples I gave are clones as well?

Uncharted 3 takes place in a completely different area than Uncharted 2 and has a different feel to it as a result, even in the gameplay. There were also some new abilities that were taken advantage of like crazy, unlike in Twilight Princess. As far as Halo 2 and 3 go, they improved on what Halo started, whereas Twilight Princess only downgraded what OoT did. 007? Not clones, as they have much more options in weaponry and whatnot, but they're definitely like Twilight Princess in the sense that they're not as good as the N64 debut. Call of Duty games are without a doubt, clones, though.

 

[Cfrock]

Uncharted 3 takes place in a completely different area than Uncharted 2 and has a different feel to it as a result, even in the gameplay.

So does Twilight Princess. Story-wise it's the same place but geographically it is completely different and definitely has a different feel to it. Even gameplay is affected since Epona became more of a necessity than a novelty and combat was included that utilised her because of this.

There were also some new abilities that were taken advantage of like crazy, unlike in Twilight Princess.

Wolf Link. Turning into a wolf was a new feature that was taken advantage of to a huge degree. Then there are the items, and yeah, things like the Dominion Rod and Slingshot are mostly abandoned soon after getting them, but every other item was used well. Heck, the Double Clawshots even came back in Skyward Sword because they were so good. On top of that you have the Hidden Skills which advanced the combat a great deal compared to the simplicity of Ocarina's "Target-And-Mash-B" approach.

As far as Halo 2 and 3 go, they improved on what Halo started, whereas Twilight Princess only downgraded what OoT did.

This part is pure opinions. Most people hold Halo: Combat Evolved as the best Halo and think that, while still great fun, the series has been getting worse ever since (I don't but that's neither here nor there).

You think Ocarina of Time was better than Twilight Princess, I think the exact opposite. You felt a great connection to Ocarina when playing Twilight Princess, I didn't. I'm not gonna dispute that because I can't and there's no need to.
But the suggestion that Twilight Princess is a 'clone', a complete 'clone' that didn't even try to be different and went "overboard" with copied material just doesn't hold up when you look at what Twilight Princess actually did. The number of 'directly copied moments' can be counted on one hand of a man who lost two fingers in a tragic industrial accident. And even then, those moments were done so differently in Twilight Princess, and for such different reasons, that they're more of a reference than a simple 'copy/paste'.

It's like saying Majora's Mask is a clone of Ocarina because a lot of the same character models appear. It's a ridiculous idea that doesn't hold any weight when you take into consideration that those models are different characters and have very different stories.
'You chase four ghosts in one of the dungeons. Clone!' - except the sequence is staged totally differently and played out as a wolf.
'Zora's Domain freezes. Clone!' - except it has real story significance and is used to make us engage more with the struggles Hyrule is facing.

How a game feels is always gonna be different for each person and clearly when you played Twilight Princess you felt a lot of Ocarina of Time. I could guess at why but I'm not you so I don't know what you thought and therefore would probably be wrong. But I just cannot agree with (or really understand) how that idea could come from Twilight Princess building on the established formula in its own unique way, deepening gameplay across the board and sharing no story elements whatsoever except one reference to Zora's Domain.

 

[JuicieJ]

So does Twilight Princess. Story-wise it's the same place but geographically it is completely different and definitely has a different feel to it. Even gameplay is affected since Epona became more of a necessity than a novelty and combat was included that utilised her because of this.

Twilight Princess revisits every single old area from Ocarina of Time and tries to replicate the feelings of each almost every time.

Wolf Link. Turning into a wolf was a new feature that was taken advantage of to a huge degree. Then there are the items, and yeah, things like the Dominion Rod and Slingshot are mostly abandoned soon after getting them, but every other item was used well. Heck, the Double Clawshots even came back in Skyward Sword because they were so good. On top of that you have the Hidden Skills which advanced the combat a great deal compared to the simplicity of Ocarina's "Target-And-Mash-B" approach.

Wolf Link's gameplay was hardly different from normal Link's and was very poorly-executed. The only items that aren't abandoned are the Bombs, the Bow, and the Clawshot. That's it. The Hidden Skills overpower Link and require no skill to pull off.

You think Ocarina of Time was better than Twilight Princess, I think the exact opposite. You felt a great connection to Ocarina when playing Twilight Princess, I didn't. I'm not gonna dispute that because I can't and there's no need to.

Twilight Princess is one of the most flawed Zeldas in existence and had downgraded gameplay in every way imaginable. It's still better than 90% of other games out there, but it's one of Zelda's weakest entries.

 

[Cfrock]

Twilight Princess revisits every single old area from Ocarina of Time and tries to replicate the feelings of each almost every time.

Not true. We don't see Lon Lon Ranch, we don't see the Lost Woods, we don't see the Goron City. Castle Town, Zora's Domain, Death Mountain, Kakariko Village, Lake Hylia and the desert are all significantly different from their Ocarina counterparts and none of them attempt to emulate the same feelings. At all. Their layout, story significance and tone of their music and even colouring all go against your claim.

Ocarina's desert was a foggy, haunted square with nothing in it. Twilight Princesses was a huge open space with stuff dotted about all over and saw some of the franchise's best sunsets.
Ocarina's Zora's Domain was a cave with about 4 Zoras. Twilight Princess's was a large, lavish, gorgeous exterior with an interior throne room and easily over 40 Zoras, giving the impression they aren't on the verge of extinction.
Ocarina's Kakariko Village was a happy, lively place that seemed mostly agrarian in nature (chicken farming, windmill). Twilight Princess's was a run-down 'Dustbowl' kind of town that felt very isolated and was more industrial in nature (bomb shop, corrugated iron).
Ocarina's Death Mountain was a long path. Twilight Princess was a a long path leading to an open space with hot springs and lots of little tunnels for crawling around that was littered with Gorons (who were initially hostile, adding to the difference).
Ocarina's Castle Town was a small square with shops. Twilight Princess's was a bustling town with separate districts and amenities like an inn and a doctor as well as a public garden space just outside the South entrance. It also had a street preacher, teenagers and a Goron population that was essentially Zelda's version of immigrants.

Ocarina had the Lost Woods which were bright, vibrant and had cheerful music. Twilight Princess had the Sacred Grove which was foggy and had a blue hue to make you uneasy and a bit sad. The music was the same song but played so differently that it evokes more or less the opposite emotion to what it did in Ocarina. Ocarina also did it as a pure maze while Twilight Princess was more focused on a chase.

Twilight Princess also brought in Snowpeak which was used for one of the most unique mini-games in the franchise as well as one of the more unique dungeons too.

Wolf Link's gameplay was hardly different from normal Link's and was very poorly-executed. The only items that aren't abandoned are the Bombs, the Bow, and the Clawshot. That's it. The Hidden Skills overpower Link and require no skill to pull off.

Wolf Link changed how you fought enemies and how you moved about the world. It also added the scent following aspect which helped drive the story on. The designers made great and frequent use of Link's Wolf Form so while I won't argue that you obviously didn't like being a wolf that much, "very poorly-executed" doesn't feel like a fair assessment to me. 'Disappointing' would perhaps be more appropriate.

The Spinner comes back for finding heart pieces in the overworld several times and I used it in fights from time to time. It could certainly have been implemented more but it wasn't abandoned. Neither was the Ball & Chain. Many people use it as a weapon, myself included. It's a lot like the Megaton Hammer in the way that it only has practical uses in one dungeon but can be used as a weapon if you so choose. I would also disagree that the Hawkeye, Iron Boots, Boomerang, Horse Call or Lantern were abandoned as I used these items throughout the adventure. I can only agree on the Dominion Rod and Slingshot (since that is replaced by the Bow).

The Hidden Skills give Link an advantage based on your ability to see the opportunity to use them. Even the Mortal Draw has its balance in that you have to be totally defenceless and get the perfect timing. Maybe you found them easier to pull off but I was very satisfied when I mastered them all and incorporated them into general combat at every chance. It was a great break from just repeatedly pressing a single button until everything was dead.

Twilight Princess is one of the most flawed Zeldas in existence and had downgraded gameplay in every way imaginable.

I personally disagree. Twilight Princess did a lot of things to give us a fresh, new experience and I felt that it delivered on every level. It took almost every basic gameplay mechanic in Ocarina and added new depth and twists on them, it presented a unique take on Hyrule that added a lot of depth to the characters as well as specific races in the overall lore and its influence (along with that of virtually all 3D Zeldas) is felt clearly in Skyward Sword.

 

[JuicieJ]

Not true. We don't see Lon Lon Ranch, we don't see the Lost Woods, we don't see the Goron City. Castle Town, Zora's Domain, Death Mountain, Kakariko Village, Lake Hylia and the desert are all significantly different from their Ocarina counterparts and none of them attempt to emulate the same feelings. At all. Their layout, story significance and tone of their music and even colouring all go against your claim.

1.) We totally saw the Lost Woods and the Goron City.

2.) Just because some places -- especially insignificant ones like Lon Lon Ranch -- doesn't mean many others weren't. They also didn't look exactly the same, but they definitely tried to evoke the same emotions.

Ocarina's desert was a foggy, haunted square with nothing in it. Twilight Princesses was a huge open space with stuff dotted about all over and saw some of the franchise's best sunsets.

That was the Haunted Wasteland. Later on the desert has a very similar design to Twilight Princess's.

Ocarina's Zora's Domain was a cave with about 4 Zoras. Twilight Princess's was a large, lavish, gorgeous exterior with an interior throne room and easily over 40 Zoras, giving the impression they aren't on the verge of extinction.

Was still frozen over and felt serene and soothing.

Ocarina's Kakariko Village was a happy, lively place that seemed mostly agrarian in nature (chicken farming, windmill). Twilight Princess's was a run-down 'Dustbowl' kind of town that felt very isolated and was more industrial in nature (bomb shop, corrugated iron).

Kakariko is the only exception.

Ocarina's Death Mountain was a long path. Twilight Princess was a a long path leading to an open space with hot springs and lots of little tunnels for crawling around that was littered with Gorons (who were initially hostile, adding to the difference).

An open space? Not really. It was very condensed and consisted of a path of its own.

Ocarina's Castle Town was a small square with shops. Twilight Princess's was a bustling town with separate districts and amenities like an inn and a doctor as well as a public garden space just outside the South entrance. It also had a street preacher, teenagers and a Goron population that was essentially Zelda's version of immigrants.

N64 limitations. Both Castle Towns are still lively and bustling with people.

Ocarina had the Lost Woods which were bright, vibrant and had cheerful music. Twilight Princess had the Sacred Grove which was foggy and had a blue hue to make you uneasy and a bit sad. The music was the same song but played so differently that it evokes more or less the opposite emotion to what it did in Ocarina. Ocarina also did it as a pure maze while Twilight Princess was more focused on a chase.

Both had cheerful music, mysterious, and relatively confusing to navigate.

Twilight Princess also brought in Snowpeak which was used for one of the most unique mini-games in the franchise as well as one of the more unique dungeons too.

One new area. Your point is?

Wolf Link changed how you fought enemies and how you moved about the world. It also added the scent following aspect which helped drive the story on. The designers made great and frequent use of Link's Wolf Form so while I won't argue that you obviously didn't like being a wolf that much, "very poorly-executed" doesn't feel like a fair assessment to me. 'Disappointing' would perhaps be more appropriate.

It didn't change how you fought enemies at all. Midna even blatantly suggests this with one of her statements. The only thing that was different was the Twilight Beast moments, which were rather annoying to be honest. It was also disappointing because it was very poorly-executed.

The Spinner comes back for finding heart pieces in the overworld several times and I used it in fights from time to time. It could certainly have been implemented more but it wasn't abandoned. Neither was the Ball & Chain. Many people use it as a weapon, myself included. It's a lot like the Megaton Hammer in the way that it only has practical uses in one dungeon but can be used as a weapon if you so choose. I would also disagree that the Hawkeye, Iron Boots, Boomerang, Horse Call or Lantern were abandoned as I used these items throughout the adventure. I can only agree on the Dominion Rod and Slingshot (since that is replaced by the Bow).

The Spinner is used to find, like, 3 Heart pieces. Using the Ball and Chain as a weapon also doesn't count as it being used a lot. I used the Whip as a weapon against Keese and whatnot in Skyward Sword. It was used poorly in terms of environment, though. Same with the Ball and Chain. The Hawkeye is an optional item, the Iron Boots are dropped after the Lakebed Temple -- this is a fact -- the Gale Boomerang becomes insignificant after the Forest Temple, and the Horse Call is never relevant in the main quest.

The Hidden Skills give Link an advantage based on your ability to see the opportunity to use them. Even the Mortal Draw has its balance in that you have to be totally defenceless and get the perfect timing. Maybe you found them easier to pull off but I was very satisfied when I mastered them all and incorporated them into general combat at every chance. It was a great break from just repeatedly pressing a single button until everything was dead.

It provided some variety to be sure, but they weren't executed as well as they could have been. Very few enemies actually required use of them, which is a huge missed opportunity to mix up the gameplay. They were cool to watch, but they only made an already easy combat system significantly easier. They should have only made things more convenient instead.

I personally disagree. Twilight Princess did a lot of things to give us a fresh, new experience and I felt that it delivered on every level. It took almost every basic gameplay mechanic in Ocarina and added new depth and twists on them, it presented a unique take on Hyrule that added a lot of depth to the characters as well as specific races in the overall lore and its influence (along with that of virtually all 3D Zeldas) is felt clearly in Skyward Sword.

A fresh experience? No, that'd be Majora's Mask and Skyward Sword (and The Wind Waker in some cases). Twilight Princess was a celebratory game that attempted to remind us why Zelda is such a great series and why past games were considered ground-breaking. It wasn't even an evolutionary game. It didn't move the series forward at all.

 

[Cfrock]

1.) We totally saw the Lost Woods and the Goron City.

2.) Just because some places -- especially insignificant ones like Lon Lon Ranch -- doesn't mean many others weren't. They also didn't look exactly the same, but they definitely tried to evoke the same emotions.

The Lost Woods do not appear in Twilight Princess. Granted, the Sacred Grove is similar but it is not The Lost Woods. The Goron City does not appear either. You have the path up Death Mountain which comes to the more open space at the top. There is a single small cave which leads directly into the Goron Mines. No Goron City, just a mountain with a mine inside.
You said "every single old area from Ocarina of Time" was revisited which is not true, no matter how many areas do appear in both games. We didn't go to the Ice Cavern or the Bottom of The Well or the Kokiri Forest as well as Lon Lon Ranch.

As for the emotions, there was a deliberate attempt to express different emotions in those areas. Kakariko Village is perhaps the most successful of these but the Sacred Grove makes a bold attempt with its cold colour palette, slow, sad music and creepy enemies. Compare that to The Lost Woods of Ocarina with its bright greens, up-beat, high tempo music and lack of enemies altogether. They are clearly not trying to create the same emotional tone.
Death Mountain is another good example. In Ocarina of Time the path up the mountain isn't particularly harsh until you get right up to the peak. When we meet the Gorons they are a friendly bunch who move slowly and deliberately, not wasting any energy and greeting Link in a friendly manner. The only ones who move with any kind of purpose are those who are rolling, which they explain is purely for recreation so that keeps with the lazy atmosphere. The colour scheme is of soft browns which makes the Goron City feel kind of cosy and the music is slow, bass driven and up-beat which emphasises the lack of urgency and easy-going nature of the N64-era Gorons.
In Twilight Princess the mountain path has numerous steam vents, falling rocks and even archers hiding in the rocks, making it quite lively and dangerous indeed. The colours are a lot harsher and darker than in Ocarina too, with vibrant oranges and reds to go with the muddier browns. This makes the whole place feel hot, not warm. It's more aggressive overall. The music compliments this by using the same song but by quickening the tempo and adding some sharper notes. Using the same song in this way (as with Saria's Song in the Sacred Grove) it instantly highlights the difference in tone because we have something ingrained in our memory to compare it to right away. The Gorons of Twilight Princess themselves add to this tonal shift. They are hostile for one thing, attacking Link on sight but they are also bigger, look stronger and most seem to either work in the mines or own businesses. In both cases, the old image of the lazy, laid-back Goron is almost completely absent (they do enjoy a good hot spring but usually after a long day of hard graft). Twilight Princess effectively re-wrote the Goron race. So again, there is an obvious and clear attempt to evoke totally different emotions.

Was still frozen over and felt serene and soothing.

In Twilight Princess they used the incredible visual of the Zoras trapped under the ice as well as the soldiers, the spirit of the dead queen and the Zoras general sense of greif throughout the game at that loss to provide the area with a completely different tone to Ocarina's. The only other location significant to the Zoras in Twilight Princess is a cemetary which kinda underlines that point. Whether you felt it or not is irrelevant, my point is there was a definite attempt to produce a different emotional response.

N64 limitations. Both Castle Towns are still lively and bustling with people.

The N64 managed to produce Clock Town, the liveliest and most real feeling town in the entire franchise. Yes, I am aware that Majora's Mask required the memory expansion to produce such things but the fact is the N64 has shown that it is not limited when it comes to creating a thriving town environment. Again, there is a clear attempt to create a different feeling in this location in Twilight Princess.

Both had cheerful music, mysterious, and relatively confusing to navigate.

Cheerful music in the Sacred Grove? If you consider sombre and melancholy 'cheerful' then, I suppose so. But again, whether you felt what they intended or not is irrelevant, the point is there was a clear attempt to create a different emotional response.

One new area. Your point is?

My point is that Twilight Princess was not copying Ocarina of Time. The fact that Snowpeak exists is evidence of that. It shows that there was a deliberate attempt to make a new game, not re-do an old one.

It didn't change how you fought enemies at all. Midna even blatantly suggests this with one of her statements. The only thing that was different was the Twilight Beast moments, which were rather annoying to be honest. It was also disappointing because it was very poorly-executed.

It changed how you fought enemies more than you give it credit for. The wide area attack is unique in the entire franchise and the Twilight Beast parts helped keep it interesting by adding a small bit of strategy to its use. But rather than focus on the attack it gave Link let's focus on the attacks it took away. You don't have your shield or your bow, for starters. All enemies have to be engaged up close and while you have no way to protect yourself except to dodge (which adds an element of skill, or emphasises it at least). You also don't have your other options, like your Boomerang to stun, your Ball & Chain to smash or your Bombs to explode. When fighting as a wolf any techniques you use all of the time as Link that rely on anything but his most basic stabs and spins are gone and you have to adapt a new style when playing as a wolf. That is a change in combat gameplay.
I'm not saying you have to like it but that change is there, no matter how much you try to suggest it isn't.

Using the Ball and Chain as a weapon also doesn't count as it being used a lot... The Hawkeye is an optional item... and the Horse Call is never relevant in the main quest.

So using the Ball & Chain doesn't count as using it? I understand what you're saying though, outside combat there isn't much specific use for it, and I agree with that, there isn't much ice to smash with it, but if I use it as a weapon then it's still being used. Heck, it's introduced to you as a weapon so it could be argued that by using it primarly as such is what counts the most. Perhaps you didn't use it much but that doesn't mean it's useless.

The Hawkeye is indeed optional, you don't have to get it. I also like ignoring content in games. If it is there for me to find and acquire then I will do so. Regardless of whether I need an item to finish the game, if it is in my inventory I will use it, and I got a lot of use out of the Hawkeye. The fact that you don't specifically need it to finish the game is irrelevant.

The Horse Call may not be a necessary item but it's sure a helpful one. An item shouldn't be rated on how much of the game it helped you complete, it should be rated on how much it helped you in general. The Horse Call helped me out a fair bit.

It provided some variety to be sure, but they weren't executed as well as they could have been. Very few enemies actually required use of them, which is a huge missed opportunity to mix up the gameplay. They were cool to watch, but they only made an already easy combat system significantly easier. They should have only made things more convenient instead.

I see the Twilight Princess Hidden Skills as the stepping stone between The Wind Waker's Parry System and Skyward Sword's Motion Control. In The Wind Waker a couple of special moves were activated automatically if you pushed A when prompted. There was no skill involved but it was fun to watch and helped the flow of combat. In Skyward Sword you had full control of your weapon and shield so you could change style and adapt on the fly to the specific challenges presented to you. Virtually every enemy needed a different approach.
In Twilight Princess we see how that system developed. It wasn't the full strategic approach from Skyward Sword but the actions were no longer automatic and you had more of them than in The Wind Waker. This meant more choice in battle and the requirement of a bit more skill (the amount of which depends entirely upon the player). Twilight Princess also made the shield a more active participant in combat with the Shield Bash. The influence of this can be seen in how Skyward Sword gave you even further control over the shield to further enhance this idea. The biggest limitation of this concept was the lack of enemies designed around it, which you mentioned. Skyward Sword obviously changed that.

The reason why I'm mentioning this is in response to the emboldened sentence in the final quote.

A fresh experience? No, that'd be Majora's Mask and Skyward Sword (and The Wind Waker in some cases). Twilight Princess was a celebratory game that attempted to remind us why Zelda is such a great series and why past games were considered ground-breaking. It wasn't even an evolutionary game. It didn't move the series forward at all.

I gave an example above of how Twilight Princess was an evolutionary game and did make a deliberate attempt to move the series forwards. The influence seen in Skyward Sword's combat is evidence off this.

As for what I underlined, that applies a lot more to Skyward Sword than Twilight Princess. That isn't to say Twilight Princess doesn't pay homage to previous games because it does, but so do all Zelda games sincethe 90s. Skyward Sword is the main example of this though because it celebrated the franchise's 25th Anniversary. It's true that Twilight Princess was released on the 20th Anniversary but Nintendo didn't make anything near as much fuss about that so I would doubt they designed Twilight Princess with that in mind.

The main point I am trying to express is that regardless of our opinions on the game and how it felt and whether it was successful in what it tried to do, there is clear evidence that Twilight Princess deliberately attempted to be different from the games that came before. The fact that it tried to separate itself in so many ways shows that it is not a clone of Ocarina of Time. I think it succeeded, you don't, but that's not the point. The point is it made the effort. I don't see how that can be denied.

 

[bspurka]

Well in the oracles defense,(A Link to the past)(links awakening)(OOA)(OOS) are all the "same" Hero. That is why the game play feels and looks the same.

 

[Ventus]

It provided some variety to be sure, but they weren't executed as well as they could have been. Very few enemies actually required use of them, which is a huge missed opportunity to mix up the gameplay. They were cool to watch, but they only made an already easy combat system significantly easier. They should have only made things more convenient instead.

A fresh experience? No, that'd be Majora's Mask and Skyward Sword (and The Wind Waker in some cases). Twilight Princess was a celebratory game that attempted to remind us why Zelda is such a great series and why past games were considered ground-breaking. It wasn't even an evolutionary game. It didn't move the series forward at all.

I'm not really here to argue, but these are two points I'd like to address. For the first, having the hidden skills required for a MODERATE amount of enemies would instantly be seen as annoying, tedious, whatever. I mean, I can compare this to Flowmotion of "Kingdom Hearts Dream Drop Distance" -- if that thing was REQUIRED to defeat enemies, people would shoot it down even more than they already do on its own. The hidden skills--like flowmotion--are just additions to the combat, not groundbreaking attempts to change the game.

What I bolded, I would apply far more to Skyward Sword than to TP. TP, despite having a lot of similarties (or at least, a similar feel) to Ocarina of Time, at least stood apart somewhat. Point is, TP did distinguish itself in the Zelda series, and it isn't so much "that one game that piles in a bunch of references just because".