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Termina Zoras and Gorons a Different Breed Than Hyrule Zoras and Gorons?

Joined
May 27, 2012
I really don't get why the Zoras decided to evolve into birds. -_- I've heard one theory that Zoras can't live in salt water and that's why they evolved (don't you think adapting to salt water would've been much easier that sprouting wings?), but the Zoras in Majora's Mask lived in the ocean. Maybe Hyrule Zoras are a fresh water breed and Termina Zoras are a salt water breed?

Now the Gorons. In Majora's Mask if you tried going in the water as Darmani you would drown, but in Twilight Princess Gorons don't seem to need to breathe at all. Are they a different breed or did the Gorons just evolve beyond the use of their lungs?
 

PokaLink

Pokalink the avaricious
Joined
Feb 5, 2012
Location
Outset Island
Thats a very complicated theory as many people, including me believe that Link created Termina in his mind, and is in other worlds something that used creatures from Links past. Also saying that Salt water and Fresh water may be the diffrent between them is what water is fresh and what water isnt, we have seen Zoras swimming a lake wich could be Saltwater or Fresh also who says that the large expase of water in Termina is Salt or fresh, also Link probably didnt know if Zoras could swim in Salt or fresh as hed only seen then in a lake, so his mind told him they could swim anywere. Seclond the Goron point is very intersting, it could be that Links mind killed Gorons in water for its own reasons, or most likely be that Link had never seen a Goron in water and predict that most likely they couldnt breath under water, a good prediction but turned out to be wrong. But overall i believe that since Termina was Links mind Zora and Gorons in Termina were just what he knew about them. Of course it could be that like in Dragon Ball Z the creators werent sure what species could breath in certain places and accidently messed it up a couple of times.
 
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Locke

Hegemon
Site Staff
Joined
Nov 24, 2009
Location
Redmond, Washington
To answer your question about Zora evolution, please refer to this post so we don't get off-topic here.

About fresh- and salt-water breeds, oddly enough, OoT Zoras are the backwards ones when looking at OoA. OoA explains that Sea [saltwater] Zoras are good while River [freshwater] Zoras are evil. So MM got it right, while OoT's Zoras should be evil. But OoA came out after OoT and MM and was made by Capcom so idk if anything was actually retconned.

Are we ever told that Great Bay is saltwater?

Gorons... gameplay.
 

Locke

Hegemon
Site Staff
Joined
Nov 24, 2009
Location
Redmond, Washington
Agreed. This isn't earth, and we don't know if the ocean is salt. That's what I always thought.
Actually I had forgotten that it is referred to as an ocean. I only brought it up because there seemed to be a misconception that "bay" automatically implied "ocean". I live near a bay in a (freshwater) lake. But it is indeed an ocean, and I do think we should assume that oceans are saltwater. Whether that's relevant biologically for the Zora is another matter which I won't delve into at this time.
 

Ganondork

goo
Joined
Nov 12, 2010
Now, let's just take canon into consideration.

ChesseXCrackers said:
but in Twilight Princess Gorons don't seem to need to breathe at all

When/where was this? I never saw any instance, implication, or example of a Goron not breathing. In fact, I actually recall a small Goron bragging about how long he can hold his breath. It just doesn't make sense.

don't you think adapting to salt water would've been much easier that sprouting wings?

Well, for one thing, it's rather difficult to adapt to that. Additionally, I'm pretty sure that the gift of flight is granted from Valoo, whose origin is, well, not explained. For that reason, no, it isn't easier to sprout wings. Zelda takes a lot from real life, usually taking real life cultures and applying them to the series (boomerang, anyone?). With that being said, Zelda would no doubt follow simple principles of water ecosystems. Ocarina of Time Zoras would no doubt be unable to survive in salt water, unless introduced to it in smaller doses; brackish water for instance. However, when Hyrule was flooded, it became entirely salt water. That much exposure would be impossible to adapt to before all of the Zoras were dead.

As for the Termina thing, well,

Locke said:
About fresh- and salt-water breeds, oddly enough, OoT Zoras are the backwards ones when looking at OoA. OoA explains that Sea [saltwater] Zoras are good while River [freshwater] Zoras are evil. So MM got it right, while OoT's Zoras should be evil. But OoA came out after OoT and MM and was made by Capcom so idk if anything was actually retconned.

This. I'm willing to bet that Capcom was not made aware of how this would affect things. The only thing I can come up with is that due to Labrynna and Holodrum being entirely different countries, the people there are different, and don't follow the same morals. Think of it like countries in which women have few to no rights, whereas in the United States, they have full rights. Basically, what I'm getting at is that different area, different behavioral habits. I can only assume that Hyrule and Labrynna/Holodrum are relatively far apart. And then you have to take into consideration rogue Zoras, or a rebellion of sorts. Something that resulted in the two sides splitting, and the evil, freshwater Zoras leaving Hyrule. Unfortunately most of this is in theory, and we can't be for sure.

PokaLink said:
Thats a very complicated theory as many people, including me believe that Link created Termina in his mind, and is in other worlds something that used creatures from Links past. Also saying that Salt water and Fresh water may be the diffrent between them is what water is fresh and what water isnt, we have seen Zoras swimming a lake wich could be Saltwater or Fresh also who says that the large expase of water in Termina is Salt or fresh, also Link probably didnt know if Zoras could swim in Salt or fresh as hed only seen then in a lake, so his mind told him they could swim anywere. Seclond the Goron point is very intersting, it could be that Links mind killed Gorons in water for its own reasons, or most likely be that Link had never seen a Goron in water and predict that most likely they couldnt breath under water, a good prediction but turned out to be wrong. But overall i believe that since Termina was Links mind Zora and Gorons in Termina were just what he knew about them. Of course it could be that like in Dragon Ball Z the creators werent sure what species could breath in certain places and accidently messed it up a couple of times.

Your theory is more difficult to explain than the one presented before us. I didn't understand half of it. All I got out of it was Link thinking up Termina, and being under the impression that Gorons can't swim. My question is this: where's the evidence? I don't understand how this theory can be even created. The tricky thing about a theory, is you need a foundation before you can start, you just can't shoot ideas out there. And I've never heard anyone else say this.
 
Joined
May 27, 2012
I never saw any instance, implication, or example of a Goron not breathing. In fact, I actually recall a small Goron bragging about how long he can hold his breath. It just doesn't make sense.

If I remember correctly, and I'm pretty sure I do, the small Goron said something along the lines of "I'm practicing holding my breath but no matter how long I stay under water I never feel the need to breathe." and there was even an adult Goron under water at Zora Domain and he stayed under water the entire game.
 
Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Location
New Jersey
To answer your question about Zora evolution, please refer to this post so we don't get off-topic here.

About fresh- and salt-water breeds, oddly enough, OoT Zoras are the backwards ones when looking at OoA. OoA explains that Sea [saltwater] Zoras are good while River [freshwater] Zoras are evil. So MM got it right, while OoT's Zoras should be evil. But OoA came out after OoT and MM and was made by Capcom so idk if anything was actually retconned.

Are we ever told that Great Bay is saltwater?

Gorons... gameplay.
Well Locke are the River Zoras really evil until after the split, (hero is defeated)
 

felipe970421

Mardek Innanu El-Enkidu
Joined
Feb 21, 2012
Location
Colombia
Well Locke are the River Zoras really evil until after the split, (hero is defeated)

OoA happens in the down fall timeline.

Also, first of all, Termina in the Canon is an alternate dimension, so that might explain the sea-water zoras, the explanation for the evolution into the rito has been given enough times already, so I won't repeat it
 

Terminus

If I was a wizard this wouldn't be happening to me
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They're both called Zoras. No other confirmed relation.

And now some reference pics for your enjoyment ;).

River Zora:
River_Zora_(A_Link_to_the_Past).png




Sea Zora:
zora.jpg
 

Beauts

Rock and roll will never die
Joined
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Location
London, United Kingdom
I think zora's are kind of like fish... as in, fish is the name for the type of thing, and then there are different species of fish, e.g. goldfish and pirhanas are both still fish. So I'm going to go right ahead and say that the breeds weren't specified in OoT because you only ever meet one group of zoras and you don't find much about them and then they are frozen under the ice (Ruto excepted because she's a sage). Incidently, perhaps that's where the evolution began? Being frozen under that ice for x amount of years has gotta screw with the biology. Maybe they sprouted wings so that could never happen again or something.
 
Joined
Feb 23, 2011
Finally... A theory that's nigh-immune to Hyrule Historia's Trump Hammer. [noparse]:)[/noparse]

Well, I don't think the word "breed" is the proper term to use here. I think it'd be better to refer to them as an alternate group of essentially the same races. To better understand this, infer to the fact that Termina has its own alternate set of characters; all of whom are similar (if not the same) in appearance. Now, normally... I'd take into consideration the many factors involving said alternate set of races, including environment, adaptation etc. However, seeing as Nintendo has never been very detail-oriented when it comes to this kind of thing, I think it is safe to assume that the Termina Zora as well as the Goron are simply analogous to Hyrule's set - nothing more.

In all honesty, to think they are "different breeds" so to speak may be over-thinking it a bit...
 
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Locke

Hegemon
Site Staff
Joined
Nov 24, 2009
Location
Redmond, Washington
Incidently, perhaps that's where the evolution began? Being frozen under that ice for x amount of years has gotta screw with the biology. Maybe they sprouted wings so that could never happen again or something.
Let's freeze you under ice for several years and see if you sprout wings...

Evolution needs natural selection. It can't happen within one generation and it can't happen when the population is frozen. As soon as they escape the ice, there's no biological advantage to having ice-resistant traits.

Also, for the hundredth time, Valoo gave them the wings; they did not evolve them on their own.
 

The Jade Fist

Kung Fu Master
Joined
Jul 17, 2012
The zora used magic to change themselves.
The gorons in majora's mask couldn't swim, and nor have other gorons been shown swimming that I know off (they are made of rock, do you think they will float?) My best guess is that a goron would simply sink, as dense as their bodies are.

Different species or races of zora is possible. Oracle of ages could also have been different cultures of zora, for example the peaceful ocean dwellers, and the more barbarian tatoo loving innocent killing river dwellers. More so to oracle of ages, that could have also only been true for that region, as different tribes of zora else where might have different cultural beliefs/ levels of friendliness to outsiders.

But they were also different colors, but so are hylians and gerudo both are considered humans. So the biggest separation is probably cultural differences combined with different zora ethnicities, but it is also possible there are different species of zora, either way you look at it doesn't change much, and most likely falls into the over thinking it category.

How ever i'll repeat what i said in another thread about the zora evolving into ruto, Zora have always been depicted as living in shallow / sheltered waters, the Great Sea in Wind Waker doesn't have a real bottom, just a magical barrier, no sand, no rocks, no plant life. The great sea was also described as a fishless sea, meaning no food. No shelter/ no food in the water, means our anphibious zora's would be forced onto land if they wanted food/ shelter. And they used magic to change themselves into birds, that whole ritual to get their wings thing.
 

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