Breath of the Wild How much of the botw debate do you think boils down to qualitative vs quantitative developments?

[MapelSerup]

It’s true that it’s not really pseudo, it’s more like it’s steered. I’m trying to find a prefix that distinguishes between an open world where you can easily go anywhere and an open world where you have to beat Punchout’s Mike Tyson to go somewhere the developers don’t intend for you to go first ... it’s virtually impossible, but technically possible. Perhaps a constrained open world, whether slightly or very? Dunno, but I’m sure you get what I mean.

As for Witcher 3, which parts specifically line up with botw?

I haven't played Witcher 3, but the way you describe its "beef gates" line up quite a bit with LOZ's design and the aspects of it that BOTW carried over. The entirety of Hyrule Castle is one big beef gate, and there are a lot of other examples of that in the world. The thing where BOTW likely differs from Witcher 3 is that, as a sandbox game, it has more options for creative solutions around these besides brute force and what limited other options an RPG would give you.
By the way, on that TVTropes link, look under the Action Adventure section of the examples for specific examples in the games.

 

[Mikey the Moblin]

I haven't played Witcher 3, but the way you describe its "beef gates" line up quite a bit with LOZ's design and the aspects of it that BOTW carried over. The entirety of Hyrule Castle is one big beef gate, and there are a lot of other examples of that in the world. The thing where BOTW likely differs from Witcher 3 is that, as a sandbox game, it has more options for creative solutions around these besides brute force and what limited other options an RPG would give you.
By the way, on that TVTropes link, look under the Action Adventure section of the examples for specific examples in the games.

hyrule castle ain't a beef gate rofl

 

[MapelSerup]

hyrule castle ain't a beef gate rofl

My bad. It’s listed on the article about them as one, so I figured it was. Could you offer some sort of explanation? It seems to fit the definition pretty closely

 

[Mikey the Moblin]

My bad. It’s listed on the article about them as one, so I figured it was. Could you offer some sort of explanation? It seems to fit the definition pretty closely

whoever wrote the article completely missed the point of breath of the wild then
if you recall, there's a few NPCs in the game who continually reference hyrule castle as a prime looting hotspot. You're not discouraged from going to hyrule castle early at all, its function just changes like everything else in the game. Is the yiga hideout a beef gate? Same principle. "Beating the game" would I guess technically be a beef gate but like then you're beating the game so? I dunno. Anyway pretty simply botw doesn't use beef gates in the same way that dark souls or other wrpgs do; to say it does would require you to also argue that hyrule field itself, the first place that people generally see upon leaving the plateau, is a beef gate due to the number of guardians crawling around.
does that make sense

 

[Dogzilla]

@MapelSerup

I actually agree, and that link is super useful, so thanks. Perhaps we can say some open worlds are sometimes beefy open worlds? Dark Souls 1 seems to be a beefy (to brutal degrees) open world, because you can choose multiple directions at first, but actually when you consider the larger structure, it’s essentially Alttp’s structure (for example, inaccessible areas before you reach the midpoint). So I’d consider DS to be a beefy semi-open world in narrow spaces. Perhaps too much jargon but it helps me conceptualise at least.

@Mikey the Moblin
I don’t get your reasoning as to why Hyrule castle isn’t a beef gate. Is it completable? Yes. Is it difficult to complete because of strong enemies? Yes. It’s therefore a beefgate. I wonder if you’re confusing beefgate with game order. Botw allows the player to complete it in any order they like, but there’s perhaps a hierarchy of story purpose, where Ganon is obviously at the top, and then the divine beasts, and then I’d say memories and sidequests, and then Korok seeds. Shrines are superficial, only for practical purposes of levelling up and navigating. But none of this changes the fact that Ganon’s castle is a beef gate.

 

[Mikey the Moblin]

I don’t get your reasoning as to why Hyrule castle isn’t a beef gate. Is it completable? Yes. Is it difficult to complete because of strong enemies? Yes. It’s therefore a beefgate. I wonder if you’re confusing beefgate with game order. Botw allows the player to complete it in any order they like, but there’s perhaps a hierarchy of story purpose, where Ganon is obviously at the top, and then the divine beasts, and then I’d say memories and sidequests, and then Korok seeds. Shrines are superficial, only for practical purposes of levelling up and navigating. But none of this changes the fact that Ganon’s castle is a beef gate.

Define "complete Hyrule Castle" and maybe you'll get my reasoning

 

[Dogzilla]

Define "complete Hyrule Castle" and maybe you'll get my reasoning

Explore every place, collect all loot, and beat Ganon. No?

 

[Mikey the Moblin]

Explore every place, collect all loot, and beat Ganon. No?

now is this your definition or the definition?

 

[Dogzilla]

now is this your definition or the definition?

It’s the definition I’m using. Why do you think Ganon’s castle isn’t a beef gate?

 

[Mikey the Moblin]

It’s the definition I’m using. Why do you think Ganon’s castle isn’t a beef gate?

I have a different definition, your aunt sally has a different definition, your own definition changes depending on what you plan on doing in hyrule castle and how far into the game you are. The point of a beef gate is to deter players from exploring a specific location, right? But you aren't ever deterred from exploring hyrule castle. The goal of your expeditions into hyrule castle can change from time to time. Not a beef gate

 

[Mikey the Moblin]

in another timeline, maybe hyrule castle is a beef gate, but the game is explicitly not designed that way

 

[Dogzilla]

I have a different definition, your aunt sally has a different definition, your own definition changes depending on what you plan on doing in hyrule castle and how far into the game you are. The point of a beef gate is to deter players from exploring a specific location, right? But you aren't ever deterred from exploring hyrule castle. The goal of your expeditions into hyrule castle can change from time to time. Not a beef gate

I agree that deterrence is an effect of beefgates, but I don’t think it’s the criteria for what makes one. After all, what do you call an area that’s accessible but too tough, given your current levels?

 

[Mikey the Moblin]

I agree that deterrence is an effect of beefgates, but I don’t think it’s the criteria for what makes one. After all, what do you call an area that’s accessible but too tough, given your current levels?

would you call an area like that a beef gate? Let's say you're playing dark souls and you're stuck on sen's fortress despite clearing out the entire rest of the game. Is sen's fortress a beef gate? nah, it explicitly needs to tell you "go somewhere else", like new londo and the catacombs, to be a beef gate

the very existence of beef gates implies an intended dev order which you are allowed to circumvent if you're skilled enough to overcome the power disparity; hyrule castle and botw at large imply no such thing at any point beyond the first bit of the game through the divine beast vah ruta.

 

[Dogzilla]

would you call an area like that a beef gate? Let's say you're playing dark souls and you're stuck on sen's fortress despite clearing out the entire rest of the game. Is sen's fortress a beef gate? nah, it explicitly needs to tell you "go somewhere else", like new londo and the catacombs, to be a beef gate

the very existence of beef gates implies an intended dev order which you are allowed to circumvent if you're skilled enough to overcome the power disparity; hyrule castle and botw at large imply no such thing at any point beyond the first bit of the game through the divine beast vah ruta.

It’s a good point of clarification, and that’s that the ‘too tough’ part is relative to the general difficulty of the overall game.

While being a tough area, Sen’s fortress wouldn’t be a beefgate because the cutscene (of its door unlocking) signals to you that this is supposed to be the next in order. Remember, Dark Souls is a semi-open game, not open. Even if there was no cutscene (suppose you simply got a ‘Sen’s key’), the general high difficulty of the game would still make it tricky to tell whether it was a beefgate or just more difficult areas. And let’s say the rest of the game was twice as difficult as Sen’s fortress, it would definitely not make Sen’s fortress a beefgate because it’s now relatively the easiest place in the whole game.

Following all that, the relative difficulty of Ganon’s castle (and despite its lures), plus the fact it’s all accessible makes it beefgated, as far as I can see.