Final Fantasy XV's Lack of Female Protagonists

[Misty]

Am I the only one who finds it incredibly sexist he has to justify an all male cast? He certainly wouldn't have to if it were all female. He'd be getting his back patted so hard for being "inclusive", "visionary", "With the times", etc. He'd probably win awards for making such a "brave" choice.

You're allowed to disagree with artistic choices, god knows I do all the time, but there is a big difference between saying something isn't your batch of brownies and saying it is sexist, misogynistic, or in any way improper.

If you're going to say the latter part, you better have a damn good argument for it and damn good arguments concerning media being harmful are few and far between.

As for the suggestion that men must be different around women, GENERALLY speaking, they are going to be different. They may not be aware that they are being different or actively taking a hand in how to present themselves, but it doesn't really seem like common sense, science, or anyone's experience of the average male lies.

If the writers did not account for this difference in their story-telling and character interactions they would be presenting something that isn't at all believable.

If they had a female in a group of men on a road trip and the fact she is a she never influenced anything, I would assume that the writers never had a female friend and never saw a female broing it up with guys. Even when you're the most bro girl ever, guys still inevitably treat you differently whether it is holding doors, giving up coats, not rough housing as much, or being more concerned with your level of comfort in general and showing signs of protectiveness or jealousy. None of the things I just mentioned are dishonest or manipulative acts.

I've never seen a guy friend offer to kick the ass of someone who insulted or was threatening towards a male friend of his...ever. They'll offer to team up and fight the guy's friends or hold him. I've had guy friends offer to do this for me nearly my entire life.

And I'm not like a delicate flower who gets hurt by others a lot. I'm usually considered quite a formidable female as females go. Guys have still always acted protectively towards me.

Male friends have always been more generous with their time or resources towards me than with their other male friends. I'm not sure in any of the cases they were aware of this, but all the other male friends were and often pointed it out.

 

[mαrkαsscoρ]

Am I the only one who finds it incredibly sexist he has to justify an all male cast? He certainly wouldn't have to if it were all female. He'd be getting his back patted so hard for being "inclusive", "visionary", "With the times", etc. He'd probably win awards for making such a "brave" choice.

ehhh,I can't really see him getting off that easily if it was an all female cast either

 

[Lozjam]

ehhh,I can't really see him getting off that easily if it was an all female cast either

He did! Final Fantasy X-2????
Ring any bells? You know...

 

[mαrkαsscoρ]

He did! Final Fantasy X-2????
Ring any bells? You know...

this game made me wanna apply to a college

 

[Emma]

Am I the only one who finds it incredibly sexist he has to justify an all male cast? He certainly wouldn't have to if it were all female. He'd be getting his back patted so hard for being "inclusive", "visionary", "With the times", etc. He'd probably win awards for making such a "brave" choice.

Actually, I agree here. You're entirely right. It is exactly this. I've made this point about other subjects myself too.

You're allowed to disagree with artistic choices, god knows I do all the time, but there is a big difference between saying something isn't your batch of brownies and saying it is sexist, misogynistic, or in any way improper.

If you're going to say the latter part, you better have a damn good argument for it and damn good arguments concerning media being harmful are few and far between.

Yeah. This is also correct. This is something that needs to be said more.

As for the suggestion that men must be different around women, GENERALLY speaking, they are going to be different. They may not be aware that they are being different or actively taking a hand in how to present themselves, but it doesn't really seem like common sense, science, or anyone's experience of the average male lies.

If the writers did not account for this difference in their story-telling and character interactions they would be presenting something that isn't at all believable.

If they had a female in a group of men on a road trip and the fact she is a she never influenced anything, I would assume that the writers never had a female friend and never saw a female broing it up with guys. Even when you're the most bro girl ever, guys still inevitably treat you differently whether it is holding doors, giving up coats, not rough housing as much, or being more concerned with your level of comfort in general and showing signs of protectiveness or jealousy. None of the things I just mentioned are dishonest or manipulative acts.

Here's where we diverge. I entirely disagree that this is "generally true". Wholeheartedly. It just isn't the reality we live in. And depicting it as you described would have made it unrealistic and unbelievable. Not the other way around. Every man that I know, have seen, or have heard of, that bothers to concern themselves with others (not all do), doesn't overly concern themselves with the comfort of others unless they're expressing signs of discomfort, and they'll inquire about it regardless of the gender of the person in question. The coats thing only happens with close friends or family, really way more common with family (where gender is not an issue), and will happen with either gender.

Rough housing is another close friends thing and it depends exclusively on the nature of individual friendships and is not gender dependent. When it doesn't happen, it's avoided not because it's a guy's only privilege, but afraid that he'll get in trouble for trying it because of the whole violence against women hysteria.

And opening doors is done for everyone, regardless of age or gender. If someone else is coming, a man will either not hold the door at all, regardless of who the person is, or they'll hold the door, regardless of who the person is. Women will do this sometimes too, but far less frequently than men. But those that do will hold the door for anyone, with no gender discrimination.

I have also noticed this same thing with drivers letting people that are walking or on bikes cross an intersection. Men will generally do it more than women, but of those men and women that do it, will do it for anyone that is trying to cross. If someone doesn't signal a man to cross a crosswalk, they were never going to do the same for a woman either, so there's no discrimination going on there either.

Everything you've said is a grossly warped stereotype about men that assigns special snowflake status to women, with them thinking they're getting this treatment exclusively when they're not, men who care about others will do the same for anyone, male or female. One gender is not going to get special treatment. In general. Of course, individual people will vary and may have their own motives.

I've never seen a guy friend offer to kick the ass of someone who insulted or was threatening towards a male friend of his...ever. They'll offer to team up and fight the guy's friends or hold him. I've had guy friends offer to do this for me nearly my entire life.

Again, more of the special snowflake googles, thinking only women get this. No. Anyone will get this offer. Guys offer it to each other ALL the time. And they offer it to anyone else.

IAnd I'm not like a delicate flower who gets hurt by others a lot. I'm usually considered quite a formidable female as females go. Guys have still always acted protectively towards me.

Guys act protectively towards their friends in general. Male or female. Particularly athletic guys. They will perceive everyone else as being weaker than them and will offer to protect anyone they care about, male or female. So yes, this particular one will sometimes have the perceived female weakness, which is why I quoted it separately. But they'll also consider this for anyone they feel is nerdy or geeky, which is not gender specific, and if they care about them they'll be protective all the same. But I have seen them do the team up thing instead of protection when considering a female athlete. So the primary discriminator they're using is absolutely NOT gender, but athleticism.

IMale friends have always been more generous with their time or resources towards me than with their other male friends. I'm not sure in any of the cases they were aware of this, but all the other male friends were and often pointed it out.

Individual experiences are hardly indicative of a widespread trend. And yeah, I know I used some of mine. That's why this is such a hard issue to really generalize. It can depend a lot on individual friends. If they decide someone needs more help, they'll try to offer it more whether they want it or not. And..... I know this is somewhat subjective.... but from what I've experienced, the more someone brushes off and gets upset about offers to help, the more people will try to offer it. This is something I notice more strongly influencing females feeling like they're getting more offers, because they tend to, rather stubbornly, reject the offers. Which triggers people's natural subconscious desire to get what they are denied. They want the satisfaction of offering aid and it's being rejected. You can see this very frequently with offers to males who have been injured. The more they reject offers of help, the more offers they get. I had this experience myself when I broke my arm. I was resentful of help and the more I told people I could handle it myself, the more they wanted to do it.

In a video game like this, where we'd presume the female would be fit and athletic, it would not be natural for her to get extra concern or helpful offers from the guys.

He did! Final Fantasy X-2????
Ring any bells? You know...

Hmm.... doesn't feel the same though because that's a sequel that hinged on established characters while this is an entirely new game with an all new cast. People will have far less trouble connecting to characters they already know when the game roster shrinks in sequels than they would with a new game with a completely new cast.

 

[Misty]

It just isn't the reality we live in.

I think it just isn't the reality you've witnessed or put together. As I already made the point of saying, I don't think people are largely aware of their ways of acting being influenced by the sex of others.

That's why this is such a hard issue to really generalize.

So difficult in fact that science does it regularly and to great effect.

Every man that I know, have seen, or have heard of, that bothers to concern themselves with others (not all do), doesn't overly concern themselves with the comfort of others unless they're expressing signs of discomfort, and they'll inquire about it regardless of the gender of the person in question.

Inquiry as to discomfort is not the same as taking steps to mitigate or solve said discomfort. The simplest example is that within my friend group in which I was the only female, men could complain until they were blue in the face about being cold or wanting to roll the windows down or up. It didn't matter to the other people. Usually, the response said male would get ranged from "sucks, dude, next time remember to dress for the weather" or "stop being a pussy".

Now, if I complained of being cold or wanting to change the state of the car windows, usually, the men would all throw jackets at me or change the air conditioning. I never once was called a pussy for complaining or told to tough it out.

I don't think this experience was unique to me as other women I've met who tend to run in male circles have admitted the same experiences with guys. It also isn't just experience, all evolutionary biology would seem to back up this way of behaving as men have opposite gender preference.

The coats thing only happens with close friends or family, really way more common with family (where gender is not an issue), and will happen with either gender.

No, it really doesn't happen just with close friends or family. I've had guys I don't know more than that they are friends of friends of friends offer me their coat or offer me their arm on longer walks when the closer friends weren't paying attention. And they do not do the same for their male peers.

Rough housing is another close friends thing and it depends exclusively on the nature of individual friendships and is not gender dependent. When it doesn't happen, it's avoided not because it's a guy's only privilege, but afraid that he'll get in trouble for trying it because of the whole violence against women hysteria.

Once again, I've seen men who are not friends commonly rough house. I've never seen men do this with women they did not know. Call it cultural hysteria, but this wouldn't happen ever between a man and a woman who did not know each other. In a road trip scenario even with the woman being a close friend, the rough housing would either have to be entirely woman dominated or not happen at all. And rough housing on road trips is quite common from what I've seen.

And opening doors is done for everyone, regardless of age or gender. If someone else is coming, a man will either not hold the door at all, regardless of who the person is, or they'll hold the door, regardless of who the person is. Women will do this sometimes too, but far less frequently than men. But those that do will hold the door for anyone, with no gender discrimination.

I'm not talking about the polite door holding. I'm talking about men rushing ahead to hold the door or purposefully and awkwardly halting their own advance through the door to make sure a woman enters first. I don't know if you men have a secret society around this, but most every man I've met has been trained to open doors expressly for women even if they're not romantically linked.

Everything you've said is a grossly warped stereotype about men that assigns special snowflake status to women, with them thinking they're getting this treatment exclusively when they're not, men who care about others will do the same for anyone, male or female. One gender is not going to get special treatment. In general. Of course, individual people will vary and may have their own motives.

This isn't really about special snowflake status for women. It's just different status. In my male peer relationships, there are also different expectations aimed towards me than my male peers. Usually to do with emotional gentleness, advice giving, having medical or stationary tools in my purse to be produced upon demand, offering what is best summed up as "pseudo mothering".

Men who care for others will not do the exact same in most cases. Men are scientifically demonstrated to show preference towards female companions. IN GENERAL. Individuals will vary, but in general, men will treat women better and women will treat women better.

I am simply outlining how this nasty truth has played out in my own life and relationships.

Again, more of the special snowflake googles, thinking only women get this. No. Anyone will get this offer. Guys offer it to each other ALL the time. And they offer it to anyone else.

I think perhaps I was not clear enough. Men will often offer to help other men fight people pissing them off. They will almost never offer to be the sole person doing the fighting while the other man stands back and watches or is left unaware that a fight occurred.

OR: Matt is angry at Stevil for having stolen his girlfriend and tells Trevor. Trevor offers to help Matt kick Stevil around for being a two timing son of a *****. (Highly likely scenario)
Matt is angry at Stevil for having Stolen his girlfriend and tells Trevor. Trevor feels angry at Stevil for having hurt his friend and secretly kicks his ass (Highly unlikely scenario).
Matt is angry at Stevil for having Stolen his girlfriend and tells Trevor. Later that night, Trevor confronts Stevil and kicks his ass while Matt stands back and watches (Highly unlikely scenario). Matt is angry at Stevil for having stolen his girlfriend and tells Trevor. Trevor says "that sucks man" and Matt has to deal with it on his own. (Highly likely scenario). Matt will be expected to help Trevor deal with Stevil.

Now, change it to this: Misty is being abused by Matt. Trevor finds out Matt is abusing his friend, Misty, and decides to secretly kick his ass for it. (Highly likely scenario).
Misty is being abused by Matt. Trevor finds out Matt is abusing his friend, Misty, and later that night kicks his ass while Misty watches. (Highly likely scenario).
Misty is being abused by Matt. Trevor finds out Matt is abusing his friend, Misty, and they both kick Matt's ass. (Possible, but less likely than the scenarios above). Misty is being abused by Matt. Trevor finds out Matt is abusing his friend, Misty, and tells her "that sucks". Misty must deal with it on her own. (Highly unlikely scenario.) Misty will not be expected to deal with Matt alone.

Guys act protectively towards their friends in general. Male or female. Particularly athletic guys. They will perceive everyone else as being weaker than them and will offer to protect anyone they care about, male or female. So yes, this particular one will sometimes have the perceived female weakness, which is why I quoted it separately. But they'll also consider this for anyone they feel is nerdy or geeky, which is not gender specific, and if they care about them they'll be protective all the same. But I have seen them do the team up thing instead of protection when considering a female athlete. So the primary discriminator they're using is absolutely NOT gender, but athleticism.

Most women are physically weaker...I don't think most guys are recognizing athleticism as opposed to breasts and vagina...I think most guys notice being female more than being buff. And science would suggest the same. Certainly, men will protect anyone, but they're statistically more likely to protect women because they're women.

Individual experiences are hardly indicative of a widespread trend. And yeah, I know I used some of mine. That's why this is such a hard issue to really generalize.

It really isn't. Science has spoken and spoken clearly about the opposite gender preference men have and how it is exhibited. I was simply adding to that my own experience.

In a video game like this, where we'd presume the female would be fit and athletic, it would not be natural for her to get extra concern or helpful offers from the guys.

Yeah, it totally would make more sense for them to be more concerned as men have been protecting women capable and incapable since we were cave dwellers. That sort of programming doesn't just fall away. And that's not even accounting for the fact we'd spend most of the game yelling "WHEN ARE THEY GOING TO KISS" at the screen.

 

[Lozjam]

Actually, I agree here. You're entirely right. It is exactly this. I've made this point about other subjects myself too.


Yeah. This is also correct. This is something that needs to be said more.


Here's where we diverge. I entirely disagree that this is "generally true". Wholeheartedly. It just isn't the reality we live in. And depicting it as you described would have made it unrealistic and unbelievable. Not the other way around. Every man that I know, have seen, or have heard of, that bothers to concern themselves with others (not all do), doesn't overly concern themselves with the comfort of others unless they're expressing signs of discomfort, and they'll inquire about it regardless of the gender of the person in question. The coats thing only happens with close friends or family, really way more common with family (where gender is not an issue), and will happen with either gender.

Rough housing is another close friends thing and it depends exclusively on the nature of individual friendships and is not gender dependent. When it doesn't happen, it's avoided not because it's a guy's only privilege, but afraid that he'll get in trouble for trying it because of the whole violence against women hysteria.

And opening doors is done for everyone, regardless of age or gender. If someone else is coming, a man will either not hold the door at all, regardless of who the person is, or they'll hold the door, regardless of who the person is. Women will do this sometimes too, but far less frequently than men. But those that do will hold the door for anyone, with no gender discrimination.

I have also noticed this same thing with drivers letting people that are walking or on bikes cross an intersection. Men will generally do it more than women, but of those men and women that do it, will do it for anyone that is trying to cross. If someone doesn't signal a man to cross a crosswalk, they were never going to do the same for a woman either, so there's no discrimination going on there either.

Everything you've said is a grossly warped stereotype about men that assigns special snowflake status to women, with them thinking they're getting this treatment exclusively when they're not, men who care about others will do the same for anyone, male or female. One gender is not going to get special treatment. In general. Of course, individual people will vary and may have their own motives.



Again, more of the special snowflake googles, thinking only women get this. No. Anyone will get this offer. Guys offer it to each other ALL the time. And they offer it to anyone else.


Guys act protectively towards their friends in general. Male or female. Particularly athletic guys. They will perceive everyone else as being weaker than them and will offer to protect anyone they care about, male or female. So yes, this particular one will sometimes have the perceived female weakness, which is why I quoted it separately. But they'll also consider this for anyone they feel is nerdy or geeky, which is not gender specific, and if they care about them they'll be protective all the same. But I have seen them do the team up thing instead of protection when considering a female athlete. So the primary discriminator they're using is absolutely NOT gender, but athleticism.


Individual experiences are hardly indicative of a widespread trend. And yeah, I know I used some of mine. That's why this is such a hard issue to really generalize. It can depend a lot on individual friends. If they decide someone needs more help, they'll try to offer it more whether they want it or not. And..... I know this is somewhat subjective.... but from what I've experienced, the more someone brushes off and gets upset about offers to help, the more people will try to offer it. This is something I notice more strongly influencing females feeling like they're getting more offers, because they tend to, rather stubbornly, reject the offers. Which triggers people's natural subconscious desire to get what they are denied. They want the satisfaction of offering aid and it's being rejected. You can see this very frequently with offers to males who have been injured. The more they reject offers of help, the more offers they get. I had this experience myself when I broke my arm. I was resentful of help and the more I told people I could handle it myself, the more they wanted to do it.

In a video game like this, where we'd presume the female would be fit and athletic, it would not be natural for her to get extra concern or helpful offers from the guys.


Hmm.... doesn't feel the same though because that's a sequel that hinged on established characters while this is an entirely new game with an all new cast. People will have far less trouble connecting to characters they already know when the game roster shrinks in sequels than they would with a new game with a completely new cast.

The cast of FFXV is already full of establish characters. Need I remind you of the 4 part anime, and complete CGI movie?

 

[Emma]

The cast of FFXV is already full of establish characters. Need I remind you of the 4 part anime, and complete CGI movie?

Oh, I didn't realize they were the same ones. I didn't see those. Are they already out? Last I heard they were only announced but I'm way behind on that.

 

[Lozjam]

Oh, I didn't realize they were the same ones. I didn't see those. Are they already out? Last I heard they were only announced but I'm way behind on that.

Not all the way released yet, but go knock yourself out
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fsVhwsUFaDE

 

[Emma]

Not all the way released yet, but go knock yourself out
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fsVhwsUFaDE

That's not going to have nearly the same exposure as another game with them would. But it does at least give some background for the characters to get to know them first, which I think would help a lot. I actually regret not reading the books for Mass Effect and Dragon Age before playing them. The first game in both those series had a prequel novel released first that was a great primer for the setting and plot of each of the first games.

It's not a high priority franchise for me, but if I get XV, I'm going to want to absorb these first to get to know the characters. The story is bound to be important for the game's plot.

 

[CrimsonCavalier]

I think it just isn't the reality you've witnessed or put together. As I already made the point of saying, I don't think people are largely aware of their ways of acting being influenced by the sex of others.

Most psychological aspects of our lives are rarely noticeable. We do them because it's our nature to do them, not because of a conscious decision to do so.

So difficult in fact that science does it regularly and to great effect.

I think this is one of the biggest things to explain to people. Too many people think the way the two sexes treat each other and themselves is a matter of purely social construct. That's not the case. A large amount of how the sexes interact is nature and instinct. It isn't an opinion or an observation on the world. It's science and fact.

This isn't really about special snowflake status for women. It's just different status. In my male peer relationships, there are also different expectations aimed towards me than my male peers. Usually to do with emotional gentleness, advice giving, having medical or stationary tools in my purse to be produced upon demand, offering what is best summed up as "pseudo mothering".

Men who care for others will not do the exact same in most cases. Men are scientifically demonstrated to show preference towards female companions. IN GENERAL. Individuals will vary, but in general, men will treat women better and women will treat women better.

100% True. Females show "gender preference" to females, and so do males. That has been unequivocally proven. Men prefer to help women, will help women over men, will do things for women they would rarely/never do for another man.

I am simply outlining how this nasty truth has played out in my own life and relationships.

This is the only thing I didn't really agree with. I don't see it as a nasty truth. It simply is. It probably isn't relevant to us today, but in our early days (as humans, I mean), our species simply would not have survived if we had not put our women on a pedestal and protected them at all costs.

Speaking frankly. One woman is more valuable for the species than a man. A society with one man and ten women will survive and potentially thrive. One with one woman and ten men will simply not.

Now, change it to this: Misty is being abused by Matt. Trevor finds out Matt is abusing his friend, Misty, and decides to secretly kick his ass for it. (Highly likely scenario).
Misty is being abused by Matt. Trevor finds out Matt is abusing his friend, Misty, and later that night kicks his ass while Misty watches. (Highly likely scenario).
Misty is being abused by Matt. Trevor finds out Matt is abusing his friend, Misty, and they both kick Matt's ass. (Possible, but less likely than the scenarios above). Misty is being abused by Matt. Trevor finds out Matt is abusing his friend, Misty, and tells her "that sucks". Misty must deal with it on her own. (Highly unlikely scenario.) Misty will not be expected to deal with Matt alone.

There have been various studies and experiments in which a man is being abused by a woman and no one comes to the aid of the man. In fact, the man is more often ridiculed and mocked by passers-by than not. On the other hand, in the scenario where the man raises his voice at the woman, a crowd will literally rush the man and either restrain him or immediately threaten him with bodily harm.

 

[Misty]

This is the only thing I didn't really agree with. I don't see it as a nasty truth. It simply is. It probably isn't relevant to us today, but in our early days (as humans, I mean), our species simply would not have survived if we had not put our women on a pedestal and protected them at all costs.

Speaking frankly. One woman is more valuable for the species than a man. A society with one man and ten women will survive and potentially thrive. One with one woman and ten men will simply not.



There have been various studies and experiments in which a man is being abused by a woman and no one comes to the aid of the man. In fact, the man is more often ridiculed and mocked by passers-by than not. On the other hand, in the scenario where the man raises his voice at the woman, a crowd will literally rush the man and either restrain him or immediately threaten him with bodily harm.

I should be clear that I was being facetious to say it was nasty. I don't believe it is a nasty truth to the interaction of genders. I believe others think it is nasty or improper and thus I was addressing and somewhat mocking that point.

I don't think it isn't relevant, I just think it is steadily growing less relevant...but it will never be truly irrelevant.