General Modern Enemy Realism

[Xinnamin]

I have often expressed discontent at how idiotic enemies tend to act in most games, anyone who has listened to the recent ZD podcasts would know how I feel about that, and upon reflecting further on the subject, I think the problem with enemies is not so much that they are stupid, but more that they fight unrealistically. My thoughts kept bringing me back to the one example of enemy fighting that I truly and genuinely enjoyed in the Zelda series, and that would be against WW enemies. My reason for enjoying those fights? The monsters responded realistically to the situation.

If you think to the harder enemies in WW, such as Moblins and Stalfos and Darknuts and the like, you'll find that these monsters have a sense of realism to them that no other Zelda game displayed. For one, they could drop their weapons when hit hard enough. Link could use these weapons against the very monsters that lost them, and the monsters could pick up other weapons too. There is something oddly amusing about a Darknut wielding a primative Boko Stick.

Another thing, the monsters didn't always rely on weapons. Darknuts were perfectly capable of fighting hand to hand when disarmed, giving them a new layer of battle strategies to use. Furthermore, the monsters were appropriately opportunistic. When disarmed, they could either continue to engage Link bare-fisted, or they could make a mad dash to a nearby weapon when they spotted an opening. They weren't mindless attackers; they could actually strategize.

The final aspect of realism was the fact that they could hurt each other. Moblins would often spear each other as the more agile Link rolled out of reach, sometimes even turning on each other. I found this both humorous and an amazing insight into the character of the Moblin species; it accentuated them as clumsy minions. The humorous momentum-based reckless swinging of Stalfos clubs had a similar effect, which made battles more enjoyable.


tl;dr
WW monsters were amazingly realistic in how they fought and used their weapons or lack thereof. It's too bad that such displays of realism never made their way into other games. I'd love to see such mechanisms return. What did you think of these aspects of the monster fighting styles?

 

[Hero of Time]

I agree completely. The level of realism in WW battles was unmatched. Being able to pick up swords and other weapons was a unique feature. Nintendo even used it a few times in Dragon Roost Cavern to create puzzles. This feature needs to return. I wish it would return in Skyward Sword, being able to use the Wii Motion Plus controls with several different weapons would be awesome.

 

[Ventus]

The reason why Zelda games don't have the realistic enemies you speak of, is mostly due to system limitations. The Wii and GameCube aren't strong systems whatsoever. They don't allow for a wagon of animations, even if they seem to be simplistic in nature. And although theoretically the Wii *should* be able to handle at least TWW AI, you have to remember that there isn't a lot of space on the Wii Optical Disc either, which wouldn't allow for too much coding. TWW is 'highly'* malleable in it's design, meaning it allows for realism and the 'cartoony' feel. You can bend reality with it, and also restore it. That's why there is the cartoony graphics (the textures weren't really in depth so they didn't use a lot of space) and also the 'realistic' fighting styles of Darknuts, Moblins, etc.
Go to a game like TP, the game pushed the Wii quite far with it's more realistic graphics, which in turn only allowed for oneway fighting. Even from what we've seen in SS, the AI seems to be horribly simplistic with the enemies sitting there waiting to be struck, and Ghirahim only fights back once you get in a certain range of his blade.
If that doesn't faze you, then understand that Nintendo's coders are not the best, so they may have not created even relatively 'good' AI for some of the more realistic games. Why they wouldn't is beyond me, but do understand that the games have limitations that can't be exceeded without some extra precautions. I realize that TP most likely didn't use all of the space for the Wii Optical Disc, but the percentage that it did was obviously more than what could have allowed for better AI, or Nintendo just got lazy and said "oh, this is mostly done, give it to 'em". **

*I do not know what to say, is it highly malleable or what?
** I am really sorry if this hurts you in any way, I'm tired and I want to go to sleep...

 

[Xinnamin]

If the lack of realism in fighting in games like TP is due to a trade-off for graphics due to lack of space, I'd say that was a poor choice of game memory distribution. I know there are people who love graphics like those in TP; personally, I'd say WW beats TP by a long shot in that regard. The simpler WW graphics allowed for realism in almost every aspect, even to the tiny details of Link's leg positions on uneven ground and his clothes dripping water after it rains, etc, without compromising the clarity of the game world's appearance.

But to get back on the topic of the enemies, I'd say enemy AI is more important to an ACTION-adventure game than making sure the graphics were as realistic as possible. With a system that focuses on motion control, you'd think the game programmers would place more emphasis on giving us a reason to need such controls to take down our foes, which is what I am hoping for with SS. TP seemed half baked in a lot of regards, but after the amazing realism they achieved with WW, it's rather disappointing to see such steps back in the fighting department. WW had such a wonderful balance of so many gaming elements, which places it at the top of my favorites list, and what they managed to do with the enemies was simply excellent. I'm at least hoping the Zelda series shifts back in that direction.

 

[Ventus]

What you said is completely true, regarding gameplay > graphics. But, times are changing to where the majority of the gaming audience wants graphics, gore, blood, nudity, violence. And I don't mean swordplay, I mean guns. I'm not trying to bash FPS', but that's the sad truth to it. Nintendo obviously won't provide gore, blood, nudity, or heavy violence, but if they can bring in a couple of fans customers by improving the graphics at the cost of a little bit of gameplay, why not? And thus, TP was born. This cycle will continue on until the majority of gamers realize that there's more to a game than it's graphics (and the tension between two or more companies subside). Eh, I'm getting sidetracked.

Not to be rude, but the realism in TWW's enemies wasn't even that special. I mean, it wasn't put to good use. Sure, the enemies had multiple fighting styles. But, were those styles used effectively? Not really. If I can hold my shield up, wait for the enemy to attack, and then just completely obliterate it from there, that's bad AI no matter how many ways the enemy knows how to fight. Rather than looking for enemy realism, I'd rather Nintendo increase the aggressive side of the enemies. Yes, that would bump the rating up a bit (according to past ESRB reviews that I've read, the enemy aggressiveness coupled with the way it reacts to being struck can lead to an E10 rating), but it is also much simpler than having the best graphics or the best animation around. And in my opinion, that would be a much better direction for the series. There could still be that realism (TWW) and the puzzlelike battles (SS from what I've seen in trailers), but it would also add an intensity that hasn't been seen so far in the 3D series (enemies are highly aggressive in the 2D Zelda whereas they are more lenient in the 3Ds, I just noticed that to be honest). And I think I trailed offtopic again...

 

[Xinnamin]

I think I'mma change this to General Modern so these "off-track tangents" are no longer off track ^_^;;

It is certainly true that the realism seen in WW did not add much to the difficulty factor. In fact, the WW fighting controls felt so streamlined to me, especially with parries, that WW may have been among the easiest I've played in the battling department. What it DID significantly improve though was the enjoyment factor. Fighting enemies in games like OoT or TP or the handhelds felt like any other necessary action, a sequence of events that had to be performed. With the WW enemies, they felt real, their movements felt real, so it was that much more fun to fight them, and what is a game if it isn't fun? At least that's how I viewed it. If they can incorporate difficulty along with the realism, that would be amazing.

I suppose what really made the WW realism special was that the other Zelda games had nothing like it. It was unique, at the very least, like much of WW was, and that gave the game its own special feel that I really loved.

 

[OhYeah!]

I really loved this in the Wind Waker. When the darknut into the tower of the gods cut down the stone pillar, I was really surprised. The thing that a Darknut could take a Moblins weapons and fight with it made it immediately more fun to pick the the fight than to run away from them.

 

[Djinn]

I do think it's a little amusing to see that the game that introduced the most abstract character designs and childish toon graphics had the most realistic fights in the series. While TP which tried to focus on a much more realistic and gritty feel dropped the idea of enemies acting like anything more than just another flavored bot for you to kill on your way to the end of the dungeon.

The realistic movements you described are more a product of the cell shading which allows for more fluid movement of more aspects of the characters and background. In a cell shaded game you can have things like characters maintain an individual way of walking, swinging a sword, falling down, etc. This is what gives WW such a better ability to display movement. Traditional texture based graphics are incapable of performing these same movements since they are basically a series of still images attached to flat surfaces arranged in a blocky formation. They cannot imitate the same movements and make it as fluid as the cell shaded counterpart.

I also liked the enemy weapon system added to the game and I hope that returns sometime in the future. I was fun being able to knock a spear out of a moblin's hand and use it yourself. Early in the game the enemy weapons were actually more useful than your own sword so it was a great addition. I also thought it was interesting how you could do extra things to enemies like break a Darknut's shield or use a backslash to cut their armor off making it easier to fight them. Even their helmets could be knocked off revealing a doglike goriya underneath. Even moblins carrying lanterns had no problem throwing that lantern at you creating a small fire. All of these options give just that extra added element of realism to the gameplay.

I think in a lot of ways Nintendo is trying to keep a balance between cartoon fun for younger players and slightly fantasy realism for those who play many other fantasy genre games. This does create a challenge since they cannot make enemies too realistic and highly stylized. Because honestly, some of the more common enemies can easily be nightmare fuel for some younger players.

While also if they are made to be far too cartoonish in design many older players are turned off and just do not like it. Casual players might not give the game a try thinking that it might be too childish and not worth their time to play. Maintaining an E rating while giving fantasy gaming fans a decent fight is a tough balancing act for a developer. It seems that they have not quite gotten the formula yet, what they have done is gone to the extremes with cartoon graphics but more advanced gameplay in WW, and then more realism and lesser AI in TP. So in an effort to maintain the balance some enemy movement AI must be sacrificed for a better look so that players are not alienated and might actually pick up and play the game.

 

[zeldawesome]

what about the bokoblins secret animation where its hanging off the edge of a cliff?that was cool!now i know why they say "fight extremly animated enemies!"