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Ending of Ocarina of Time

Joined
Oct 18, 2007
Its not talking about when Zelda sent Link back, Link didnt leave Hyrule. However, Link did leave Hyrule when he embarcked on his journey to Termina.

"embark on another journey and left the
land of Hyrule"

Who knows though, maybe the hylians just thought he left Hyrule since he was no where to be found. But either way it was said that when Link left, the Triforce split into eight pieces and was scattered across Hyule, still doesnt explain how TP Link obtained it. Cuz Link left both worlds in each timeline...he left to Termina in Young Link timeline which would also seperate him from the Triforce and I suppose going back in time did the same thing. But yeah, heres a quote from Miyamoto concerning TWW place in the timeline.

"There's also a more complicated explanation. If you think back to the end of the Ocarina of Time, there were two time period endings to that game. First Link defeated Ganon as an adult and he actually went back to being a child. You could actually say that the ending where he was an adult, The Wind Waker would take place 100 years after that. "

But truthfully, they dont even know a damn thing about the timeline half the time. They'll say one thing and then change with a newer Zelda game.
 
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TheManInTheMoon

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In the absense of another logical explanation of the state of the Triforce leading up to TP, then that leaves us with the in-game explanation, the "Divine Prank".
 
Joined
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The Divine Prank was merely saying that Ganondorf tried to conqour the Sacred Realm, failed, but yet still obtained the Triforce of Power.
 

TheManInTheMoon

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"merely"?

In order to get the ToP (by normal means) he would have had to touch the Triforce.
If he touched the Triforce he would have conquered the SR, no try and fail.
We know that he did not conquer it, and therefore did not touch the Triforce (accounting for the Sages' surprise at him having it).

"Divine Prank" then implies that it was the Goddesses that gifted Ganondorf with the ToP, as they did with Link and Zelda and their respective parts.
 

Mases

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Not to jump back in time (pun intended), but my confusion/argument about the Time Paradox was what I was curious to know about. The placement of Twilight Princess and Wind Waker can be discussed endlessly... (in another topic).

I just don't get how in Majora's Mask prologue, they mention the hero battled through time and now is on his own journey. This is inferring that this Link actually did battle through time in the future of Ocarina of Time. However, at the end of Ocarina of Time when young Link warns Princess Zelda of Ganondorf's real plans, this changes the future. Thus, this same young Link would then be remembering things that never existed? This is a time Paradox. He fought in the future and remembers what Adult Princess Zelda told him, but those events never happened... since Ganondorf is stopped when Link is still young.

So in Majora's Mask, this young Link... wasn't the Hero of Time anymore, because those events never happened in the Majora's Mask timeline. This just doesn't make sense to me at all.
 

TheManInTheMoon

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Before Zelda sends him back, she mentions that you must close the door of time

"You must lay the Master Sword to
rest and close the Door of Time...

However, by doing this, the road
between times will be closed..."

That implies that going back doesn't erase that future, it just cuts it off, allowing for a new one to be made
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2007
The events did happen in Young Links timeline, how else could he be in the sword chamber. And the fact that Young Link was wielding the Master Sword in his own time says something as well that all the events happened. Link even had the Ocarina of Time during Majoras Mask.
 

Dabombster

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I always saw it as Link went back in time and returned the Master Sword. So, even though he did return it, the events still happened, as it was the past, thus making two versions of the same Link (the one who had yet to get the Master sword, and the one that had).

This would leave the one that had in Majora's Mask, and the one in Ocarina of Time, thus causing a split in the timeline itself.
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2007
There was only one Link aside from Future Link. It wasn't the past, but the present. OoT is a fluke, if you pay attention to the ending, it seems it starts all over again...Link walks up to Zelda as Zelda watches Ganondorf inside the castle. But this time around, link warns Zelda and I suppose the King took action resulting in the events of the Twilight Princess scene flashbacks.
 

Inflexus

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Do you guys remember the Terminator movie?

It was a simple time paradox: The kid the lady is supposed to have is created when that kid goes back in time to get her pregnant with herself.

That's impossible, because he would never have been able to exist if he didn't create himself by having a baby with her, but he is that baby.

It's like asking "Which came first? The chicken, or the egg?" and then throwing time travel into the equation. It crates an erroneous system that can not possibly exist.

Same with the ending of Ocarina of Time. To say the ending is rational is to say it never happened in the context of the game, therefore the events of the game would become unresolved and have to happen again, but in doing so the ending would be resolved and alter the events in the past, causing them to repeat themselves indefinitely.

That is a time paradox, and that is what it creates. Link would be forever caught in that loop. This means the series, with Link and his descendants, as the main characters, would not be able to move forward.

And without Link, the rest of the game cannot progress forward.

Logically the ending cannot happen the way it did unless it creates a never ending 7 year loop. Link can not move on and away from that loop, and Hyrule's existence is relying upon that loop. No one, from the hero's perspective, can move forward in time.

One can also theorize that this creates different "compartmentalized" planes of reality, at different stages of the journy based on Link's progress and such, where relationships are different in each universe. For instance, one where Ganondorf is preemptively defeated, where Link grows up to be a normal boy, and a different "plane" or "dimension" or "universe", where Link is caught in a time loop eternally, and a separate plane where Link stays as an adult, and stuff like that.

Of course this is all just theory, and based on the evidence. I wouldn't trust that Nintendo would be able to explain itself out of something defying such in-depth logic as this adequately, though I suppose it comes down to Ocarina of Time being "just a game."

Any thoughts on that at all?
 

Mases

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I'm going to first make the assumption that there is a split timeline. In this case, the adult timeline is perfectly logical. All the events occur, the games ending occurs where Link defeats Ganon. Link is then sent back in time. The adult timeline takes place in the adult Link world, (although Link is absent because he was sent back in time). To me, this is perfectly logical.

The young Link timeline is where it gets screwy. After Adult Link is sent back in time, he apparently warns Princess Zelda of the future, thus, preventing the future from ever happening. At that point, how does Link even know about the future to warn Zelda of... if it never happens?

I don't think looking at it rationally is the way to go about it. Perhaps mysterious power is within the Ocarina of Time so that once Princess Zelda sends Link back in time... (Princess Zelda still has the OOT since she didn't give it to Link yet in the past). Perhaps the Ocarina of Time has this knowledge of a 'possible' future and that Zelda knows of Link's destiny. In this case, the Link we know is uncertain of any events of the future. Then Zelda and Link together prevent Ganondorf from gaining power and prevent everything that has happened in the future. This story, that was past via the Ocarina of Time is no longer fact, but now just a legend. So although young Link never actually battles through the future, he is regarded as the hero of time because of the legend.
 

Inflexus

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I'm going to first make the assumption that there is a split timeline. In this case, the adult timeline is perfectly logical.
Not necessaraly. Typically, the split timeline theory suggests that TP comes before Wind Waker, but that would be impossible because Ganon died in Twilight Princess, and could not possibly exist in a "future game".

Anyways, that's just one of several reasons why I don't believe that theory, but I'd rather stay on topic for the sake of the discussion.

All the events occur, the games ending occurs where Link defeats Ganon. Link is then sent back in time. The adult timeline takes place in the adult Link world, (although Link is absent because he was sent back in time). To me, this is perfectly logical.
Link's timeline was based heavily on his decendants, but Link doesn't have a way to make kids unless he's an adult. This would indicate that all the games would have to had happened on a single time line(the "child Link timeline),and/or a single plane of reality, over the course of several generations.

However that contradicts the 3 or 4 reality planes(I would argue for more around 5-7 at least) needed for the split timeline to be a possibility.

The young Link timeline is where it gets screwy. After Adult Link is sent back in time, he apparently warns Princess Zelda of the future, thus, preventing the future from ever happening. At that point, how does Link even know about the future to warn Zelda of... if it never happens?
Exactly my point. Link's future is caught in a never ending loop because he must constantly resolve the events of the future to resolve his past, but in doing so he contradicts the events of the future and therefore they would be unresolved, forcing him to go over it again and again and again endlessly. Link's perspective, Link's conciousness, would never be able to move forward.

Another problem is that Zelda allready warned the King(the only person who could have done anything) about the omens and her dreams and such, but he refused to act. Zelda has no authority other than that, and we also know Ganondorf is the strongest character in the game at that point. The king's guard, the gorons, the zoras would have been killed off if Ganondorf wanted it to happen. He had that ability.

So Link had no way to prevent him from coming to power in the first place, meaning the time paradox is a necessity and that it can never be resolved, regardless of Link's awareness.

And if Link cannot progress to adulthood without looping back into childhood, then he can't have decendants who further the other games. This means the "Adult Link" Timeline is irrational and is impossible.

I don't think looking at it rationally is the way to go about it.
That's why my theory makes the most sense-there is no real timeline because the logic between games has failed and Ocarina of Time exists in a way that it can never be resolved.

Perhaps mysterious power is within the Ocarina of Time so that once Princess Zelda sends Link back in time... (Princess Zelda still has the OOT since she didn't give it to Link yet in the past). Perhaps the Ocarina of Time has this knowledge of a 'possible' future and that Zelda knows of Link's destiny.
First of all, this is merely speculation, but this does a lot of guess work so I'll address it as such.

We know that the Ocarina of Time has the ability to transmit messages(Link learned the song through psychic chats with Zelda) but it did not go to the past in it's old state. The Ocarina continued into the "adult" timeline because it stayed with Zelda.

Then it would have been impossible for it to take a message back to the past, because it would not have yet existed in a conscious state where it was aware of the future and the message that Zelda maybe would have been able to send.

In this case, the Link we know is uncertain of any events of the future. Then Zelda and Link together prevent Ganondorf from gaining power and prevent everything that has happened in the future. This story, that was past via the Ocarina of Time is no longer fact, but now just a legend.
Actually, it means the story of the Ocarina of Time would never have existed, therefore no one would know anything about it.


In short, you have an allright theory there, except for using the self-refuting "split timeline" theory as the premise of the arguement.
 

Mehplep

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Not necessaraly. Typically, the split timeline theory suggests that TP comes before Wind Waker, but that would be impossible because Ganon died in Twilight Princess, and could not possibly exist in a "future game".

Anyways, that's just one of several reasons why I don't believe that theory, but I'd rather stay on topic for the sake of the discussion.
TP before WW? If you are going after GameTrailer's timeline, we all can say already now that it's wrong. TP should take place after OoT, but not before WW.



Link's timeline was based heavily on his decendants, but Link doesn't have a way to make kids unless he's an adult. This would indicate that all the games would have to had happened on a single time line(the "child Link timeline),and/or a single plane of reality, over the course of several generations.

However that contradicts the 3 or 4 reality planes(I would argue for more around 5-7 at least) needed for the split timeline to be a possibility.
WW explains this very good. In all other games exept AoL, Link have just waited until "the hero inside him awakes", and then he have the triforce of courage within him. In WW though, Link don't have it, since he is not a decendant of the Link with the ToC, so what do he do? He setts off to find all the eight pieces! So it's obvious that this Link is NOT a decendant from Link in OoT, but still the wielder of the ToC.

Also, 5-7 alternitive realitys? The split timeline indicates two, timeline A and timeline B. You could mess it up and say that OoA too creates a timeline, but this will still just make three.



Exactly my point. Link's future is caught in a never ending loop because he must constantly resolve the events of the future to resolve his past, but in doing so he contradicts the events of the future and therefore they would be unresolved, forcing him to go over it again and again and again endlessly. Link's perspective, Link's conciousness, would never be able to move forward.
There are other ways to tell those things. Take, uh, Dragonball Z for example. Trunks is in the future where C17 and C18 have killed 2/3 of the worlds population. To seek for aid, he travels back in time, to warn Goku about the androids. But even though Goku (or Vegeta... whatever) succeds, the future Trunks is in still have C17 and C18 on a killing spree. This is because when Trunks traveled back in time, he did not create a paradox or altered the past at all, he just managed everything to split off the normal timeflow and create a alternative reality, hence the name "split timeline". This will leave the same past until he traveled back, where a new past was created where the androids were killed and the people saved, but he still lives in the one with the androids killing the world.

Another problem is that Zelda allready warned the King(the only person who could have done anything) about the omens and her dreams and such, but he refused to act. Zelda has no authority other than that, and we also know Ganondorf is the strongest character in the game at that point. The king's guard, the gorons, the zoras would have been killed off if Ganondorf wanted it to happen. He had that ability.
This is just theorys, but that's what discussing the Zelda timeline pretty much is about... when Ganondorf took over Hyrule in the past, he did it through the sacred realm. He went into it through the Temple of Time, which Link had opened. And it was from there he gained the ability to take over the world, he did not have it before. When Link travels back, he lands in the temple of time, where the Master Sword lies on the pedestal. This tells that Link never opened the sacred realm, meaning Ganondorf never could've claimed his powers, and are therefore helpless. Even though Zelda's warnings didn't do much, the King still banished Ganondorf and the Gerudo after he tried to take the throne without his powers, leading into the Gerudo becomming Twili. But that's another story...
 

Inflexus

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TP before WW? If you are going after GameTrailer's timeline, we all can say already now that it's wrong. TP should take place after OoT, but not before WW.
My question would be why Ganon did not die in Wind Waker, but that's a seperate question. We know that somehow Hyrule has to be unflooded in order for TP to happen after Wind Waker, but that has not happened in any game and we have no evidence to believe that it will or will not happen.


WW explains this very good. In all other games exept AoL, Link have just waited until "the hero inside him awakes", and then he have the triforce of courage within him. In WW though, Link don't have it, since he is not a decendant of the Link with the ToC, so what do he do? He setts off to find all the eight pieces! So it's obvious that this Link is NOT a decendant from Link in OoT, but still the wielder of the ToC.
I'd say that's debatable, in Ocarina of Time Ganondorf curses Link, Zelda, and Link's Decendants until the end of time. It would mean that Link's decendants would most likely be through blood as opposed to being metaphorical decendants, passed along through the Master Sword and the Triforce of Courage.

Also, 5-7 alternitive realitys? The split timeline indicates two, timeline A and timeline B. You could mess it up and say that OoA too creates a timeline, but this will still just make three.
Once I create my graphic I will illustrate this point to what my theory suggests.

There are other ways to tell those things. Take, uh, Dragonball Z for example. Trunks is in the future where C17 and C18 have killed 2/3 of the worlds population. To seek for aid, he travels back in time, to warn Goku about the androids. But even though Goku (or Vegeta... whatever) succeds, the future Trunks is in still have C17 and C18 on a killing spree. This is because when Trunks traveled back in time, he did not create a paradox or altered the past at all, he just managed everything to split off the normal timeflow and create a alternative reality, hence the name "split timeline". This will leave the same past until he traveled back, where a new past was created where the androids were killed and the people saved, but he still lives in the one with the androids killing the world.
Long story short: He did something irrational and the plot had to be irrational as well to avoid keeping him in a paradox loop.

This is different than the Ocarina of Time, because it sounds as though Goku could do something legitimate to change the past, but even in doing so he would then make himself unaware of what would happen and it would create a paradox regardless.

In effect, using DBZ as a reference is a strawman arguement.

This is just theorys, but that's what discussing the Zelda timeline pretty much is about...
I think you mean speculation, not theory. I want to correct that ahead of time because speculation is simply saying a possibility, wheras a theory is an educated statement supported by evidence that has not been disproven, ie the Pythagorean Theorum.

when Ganondorf took over Hyrule in the past, he did it through the sacred realm. He went into it through the Temple of Time, which Link had opened. And it was from there he gained the ability to take over the world, he did not have it before. When Link travels back, he lands in the temple of time, where the Master Sword lies on the pedestal. This tells that Link never opened the sacred realm, meaning Ganondorf never could've claimed his powers, and are therefore helpless. Even though Zelda's warnings didn't do much, the King still banished Ganondorf and the Gerudo after he tried to take the throne without his powers, leading into the Gerudo becomming Twili. But that's another story...
Assuming your logic with that is correct then you still don't account for Ocarina's time paradox.
 

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