Did Zelda need to go 'open world'?

[DarkestLink]

Skyward Sword was called Suckward Sword for a reason. A game similar to SS in any shape or form would have gone up like a lead balloon with the fans. It would have tanked. And killed Switch sales along with it.

But SS was less linear than previous titles. It's still a linear game, but it's the first 3D game since OoT that allowed you to do anything out of order. And in this case, it wasn't just from sequence breaking. On top of that, there was a much greater emphasis on exploration in SS. Though tbh, while that sucked, I think the major issues came from poor world building and tedious elements like stamina, durability, and grinding...all of which unfortunately returned.

 

[YIGAhim]

Skyward Sword was called Suckward Sword for a reason. A game similar to SS in any shape or form would have gone up like a lead balloon with the fans. It would have tanked. And killed Switch sales along with it.

But the linearity wasn't the biggest issue of SS for most people, and a bit of direction never hurt anyone

 

[Castle]

Yes.

Open world exploration is the nature of the Zelda series. It was the distinction the first game had. It is in the series' identity...
...an identity that had been getting increasingly lost until Suckward got dumped on us and obliterated it entirely.

Breath of the Wild was not the answer though. It stripped the series of everything in favor of a big empty space with a million useless turds to pick up for no reason. No story, no dungeons, no variety, no interesting characters, no creativity to the world... nothing.

Heck, even in the original LoZ there may have been no story or characters but at least everything you could find by randomly burning bushes and bombing walls was unique. Every discovery was meaningful and therefore special. What excitement is there in completing your 50th shrine for the same upgrade? Or clearing out your 40th bokoblin camp for the same rusty swords and rough hewn clubs? What point is there is climbing that cliff or venturing beyond that field when the whole world is all the same desolate landscape with no unique features or distinctive locals?

Linearity is enforced in OoT, WW and TP for a reason... because none of those games have to be linear! Why not venture up Death Mountain before speaking to Zelda? Why not explore the great sea as soon as you get the boat? Why not banish the twilight from any region of Hyrule? The walls are so achingly arbitrary! All they had to do was take them down and let players go. Nothing else had to change.

So it's not a difficult matter to make the Zelda series more open. Nintendo didn't have to strain their tiny minds thinking about it so hard.

 

[DarkestLink]

Linearity is enforced in OoT, WW and TP for a reason... because none of those games have to be linear! Why not venture up Death Mountain before speaking to Zelda?

Because this happens:

-Go to Death Mountain.
-Lose your shield because you haven't visited Castle Town for a steel one.
-Get to Goron City.
-A spiritual stone? Sounds important. The "Big Boss" has it.
-The big boss is in his room. I need to solve a puzzle to get in.
-*3 hours later*
-Puzzle's impossible to figure out! I'm STILL stuck on it! I want that spiritual stone!
-Things are getting frustrating. Turn off the game at come back to it later.
-Still can't figure out how to get to Darunia.
-Not having fun.
-Eventually give up and go back to Castle Town.
-...You learned Zelda's Lullaby. Time to backtrack.

The player gains nothing from doing this. They're put in an unfair situation where they are given a puzzle they can't solve. They waste time going to a place where nothing can be accomplished. They waste time trying to solve a puzzle that can't currently be solved. They're not having fun, they're just pissed off at this point. You should avoid pissing the player off. The players time should be respected. Zelda is not a game where the player has all the tools and abilities from the start, as such there are places where the player really shouldn't be. In this case, linearity is here to protect the player from accidentally ruining their own experience.

And sometimes games do this when it's not necessary. For example, if there's a powerful monster ahead and the player's going to have a hard time beating them, then there's nothing wrong with simply warning the player about what's ahead and letting them make the choice. But with puzzles, either you have the tools or you don't. And if you don't, there's no reason to pit the player against an impossible obstacle.

The point of linearity is to address a player's growth:

-Make harder challenges to address a strong player.
-Make new challenges that address the player's new abilities.
-Create boundaries for players, this way the player knows what's off limits and what they are allowed to do.

Static characters, like Mario, don't need linearity. Growing characters, like Link, need a lot. Most people really don't like wasting time in places where they can't do anything. It's one of the most frustrating things that can happen in a game. Some players will even check guides religiously just to prevent this from happening.

 

[el :BeoWolf:]

Zelda at it's heart was always meant to be open world, but ALttP and OoT set a precedent for linearity that we now see in many Zelda titles. Back in the early days, Mario was meant to be the linear adventure from point A to point B, while Zelda was mean to be the big open world for exploring. Though far from perfect BotW is a looong over due step in the right direction. I personally loved BotW's open feel. It gave enough sense of direction that I knew where I could go, but I had an entire kingdom to explore if I wanted. BotW and other open Zelda titles are like an amusement park in that you can go here or there or just about anywhere. Skyward Sword and other linear games are like a single ride in an amusement park with only a one way track that while can be fun, there's more out there. Zelda should almost always be an open world.

 

[Castle]

The player gains nothing from doing this. They're put in an unfair situation where they are given a puzzle they can't solve. They waste time going to a place where nothing can be accomplished. They waste time trying to solve a puzzle that can't currently be solved. They're not having fun, they're just pissed off at this point. You should avoid pissing the player off. The players time should be respected. Zelda is not a game where the player has all the tools and abilities from the start, as such there are places where the player really shouldn't be. In this case, linearity is here to protect the player from accidentally ruining their own experience.

On the contrary, the openness of such a sequence as the example you use @DarkestLink is a more complicated and thus a more challenging puzzle that encourages the player to explore the world until they've found the solution. As the sequence actually plays out in the game, it's essentially giving the player a key to a locked door and then showing them the door.

Heaven forbid we actually have to work a little to figure things out. Heaven forbid we intrepid explorers actually have to show a little initiative in order to progress. Ninty's mentality here is modern game design 101: NEVER risk the player getting frustrated for a second, lest they start sobbing and turn off the game because thinking is HARD!!

Of course if ninty really wanted to be clever (they couldn't even if they wanted to) they could offer multiple creative solutions to puzzles. That way, if the player doesn't have one tool for a job, maybe he'll have acquired another on his own by that point. Or maybe all the player has to do is show a little ingenuity that doesn't even require the use of a tool from Link's arsenal. How satisfying would it be to acquire some nifty new item on your very own and then get to use it on your very own to solve a puzzle your way?

 

[DarkestLink]

On the contrary, the openness of such a sequence as the example you use @DarkestLink is a more complicated and thus a more challenging puzzle that encourages the player to explore the world until they've found the solution. As the sequence actually plays out in the game, it's essentially giving the player a key to a locked door and then showing them the door.

Not at all. You know you have the tools to get past the door, the question is "how?". But if you tell the player to just go explore to open the door, it's not even a puzzle anymore. It's just a very frustrating game of "find a needle in the haystack". This is a similar problem to the original game's hidden entrances. Just OCD bomb/torch until you find the entrance. This is about as fun as spending a few hours finding your car keys because the last driver misplaced them.

Heaven forbid we actually have to work a little to figure things out.

Figure what out? This is, essentially, a multiplayer choice question. Is the answer A, B, C, or D? None. It was E. E wasn't available? You weren't allowed to pick E? The question was literally impossible to answer? Tough ****, I guess. It's not even challenging, it's just flat out impossible and unfair.

Of course if ninty really wanted to be clever (they couldn't even if they wanted to) they could offer multiple creative solutions to puzzles.

That's what they did with BOTW and it did not work. It made puzzles way too simple. So simple I'm not even sure I can even call them puzzles. A couple of examples from BOTW:

A: Find a way to light all the torches using the single flame you have available.
Alternate solution: Just whip out your fire arrows and light them.

B: Send electricity through the circuit to reach the electric switch to open the door.
Alternate solution: Just whip out an electric weapon and bash the switch.

How satisfying would it be to acquire some nifty new item on your very own and then get to use it on your very own to solve a puzzle your way?

Not at all actually. Again, they did this in BOTW and the two examples are cases of this. When I acquired fire/electric items, I could clear pretty much any electric/fire based shrines. With specialized armor this further trivialized it. It didn't feel satisfying at all. I felt cheated and patronized.

This isn't like Skyrim or other Open World games. In Skyrim, I feel satisfied when I get an amazing new weapon and skill. I feel powerful. And it feels satisfying because I once struggled against the same enemies I'm now dominating. I now laugh at those bandits as I send their Chief to go kill them as my undead slave. That guard in Whiterun better think twice about making some smartass sweetroll comment or I'll send a storm to destroy everyone in the city.

With a puzzle based game like Zelda, it's different. I feel satisfied when I clear a difficult puzzle, even if it's just an early game puzzle and I'm just figuring the game out (like the Deku Stick torch puzzles). But when the puzzles consistently feel too easy, I don't feel satisfaction. I feel like a grown man being given kindergarten activities to solve. It's insulting. I understand the idea is to make a player feel clever by solving a puzzle in a unique way, but in the end this is an oxymoron. The more solutions there are to a puzzle, the easier it becomes and the less satisfying it is to solve. Again, using multiple choice as an example. If you have choices A-E and choices A, C, D, and E are correct, it's much easier to get the question right.

Trying to solve problems your own way works better in a game like 3D Mario. You have an obstacle before you and you find your own way to clear it. However not only do you need to think outside the box to do it, you also need the platforming skills to pull it off, so finding this alternative method doesn't actually make conquering it any easier. But that's not the only reason why it's more satisfying. Solving a puzzle your own way leads to the same result. The answer is found and the puzzle is over. You didn't find a better way to do it because there is no better way, you just picked one of the multiple correct answers. That's all there is to it. In the end, all this accomplished is making the puzzle easier. But with something like a platforming challenge, you can clear it in a way that's better, either by being less risky or significantly faster.

In the end, this is why the puzzles in BOTW were so disappointing. I'm not a hardcore gamer by any means. I'm a casual through and through and there have definitely been times where Zelda's puzzles have stumped me. But with BOTW, the answer was always clear to me within 5-10 seconds of entering the shrines. There's so many correct answers to the question that you're bound to come across one of them quickly.

 

[Storm]

my feeling is that they did have to go expansive, but now i'm literally trying to find things to do.
120 puzzles? easy when about 30 of them are Tests of Strength.
Korok Seeds? do we really need 900? that seems too high
Clothing upgrades? oh boy. theres nothing I like more than camping at Lake Hylia so I can shoot Farosh like 50 times

I feel like maybe there should have been more than 4 dungeons... hell,they weren't even dungeons. 4 ultra puzzles with a boss fight at the end. sure I don't have trials of the sword,or the DLC where we get the Motorcycle, and haven't beaten the game 18 times like my brother @Pendio here, but you'd think with a Huge world there would be like 40 dungeons. and Items. A Link to the Past has the Most Dungeons to date with 14 Dungeons, and that was almost 30 years ago.

 

[Castle]

This is a similar problem to the original game's hidden entrances. Just OCD bomb/torch until you find the entrance.

Except the series stopped doing that with ALttP and it's been like that ever since. Bombable walls are now cracked. In OoT, you know that when you see the Triforce symbol, you need to play Zelda's Lullaby. Besides, the game still guides you to Zelda to get the song you need anyway. That's what Navi's for, right? So why not just let the player climb Death Mountain anyway? If not for no other reason than because why not? So what if you can't get into Daruna's room to progress the story until then? Countless games do this with no problem, no confusion and no frustration. It's not even really a puzzle. It's just following the intended sequence of events as directed.

Is the answer A, B, C, or D? None. It was E. E wasn't available? You weren't allowed to pick E?

Yes, E is available. E is available over in Hyrule Castle after speaking to the princess... ya just gotta go a bit out of your way to find it. Or not, really, given that the game directs you there anyway.

A: Find a way to light all the torches using the single flame you have available.
Alternate solution: Just whip out your fire arrows and light them.

B: Send electricity through the circuit to reach the electric switch to open the door.
Alternate solution: Just whip out an electric weapon and bash the switch.

Or...

Problem: Find a way up to the ledge.
Only solution: See a target > Apply hookshot

Problem: Open the door.
Only solution: See Triforce > Play Zelda's Lullaby

Problem: Weight down a switch.
Only solution: Push the nearby block on it.

Problem: Unlit sconce.
Only solution: Shoot a fire arrow at it.

So... the solutions are all obvious regardless of whether or not there are multiple solutions.

Besides, using electrified or flaming equipment to solve puzzles so easily in BotW is a thing because BotW gives you electrified and flaming equipment. Maybe give players multiuse items with many different applications that aren't always so immediately obvious?

 

[Rubik]

Open world games are neither an inherently good or bad thing. What's important is that you make a world that doesn't feel empty and adds something to the experience.

I think it's a good thing that Nintendo has at the very least experimented with open worlds because it lets people experience the setting in a different way, but I do hope that it doesn't mean the end to some of the linear Zelda gameplay that the series is known for.

 

[DarkestLink]

Except the series stopped doing that with ALttP and it's been like that ever since. Bombable walls are now cracked.

Because it's archaic design. aLttP had moments where they present a wall in front of the player and simply have them look for some item to remove it (i.e. a medallion). Getting past these barriers wasn't satisfying. It was just a frustrating pause in the game that wasted time. While a step up from the original's system, it was still poor outdated design and they evolved past it.

In OoT, you know that when you see the Triforce symbol, you need to play Zelda's Lullaby.

Sure...after you've done it over and over and over again.

Besides, the game still guides you to Zelda to get the song you need anyway. That's what Navi's for, right? So why not just let the player climb Death Mountain anyway? If not for no other reason than because why not? So what if you can't get into Daruna's room to progress the story until then?

I told you why not. When an area is closed off to the player, you're telling them that this is off limits.You are unable to progress here, so don't waste your time. When you open an area to the player, you tell them that they're free to make progress in this area. In this case, that's not true It'd be one thing if Death Mountain had a bunch of mini games and sidequests the player could complete without seeing Darunia, but there's not. There's literally nothing you can do in Death Mountain. Nearly everything requires bombs or a bomb flower, which is unavailable to you for the time being. The only thing that can come of this is the player wasting their time. Again, you should never waste the player's time.

Countless games do this with no problem, no confusion and no frustration. It's not even really a puzzle. It's just following the intended sequence of events as directed.

Yeah and almost all of them are old or outdated. I remember when Banjo Tooie got flack for having too many jiggies that players couldn't get due to not having the right moves. Yooka Laylee got called out on this as one of the many outdated design choices it had.

And granted I was 6 when I beat OoT, but the first time I realized I could convince people that I was a member of the royal family just with their song, it felt pretty satisfying.

Yes, E is available. E is available over in Hyrule Castle after speaking to the princess... ya just gotta go a bit out of your way to find it. Or not, really, given that the game directs you there anyway.

You don't know that. You should have all the tools you need available. That's why the area is open. Even if they aren't in your inventory, they should still be in the general area and you should be aware of this.

Problem: Find a way up to the ledge.
Only solution: See a target > Apply hookshot

Problem: Open the door.
Only solution: See Triforce > Play Zelda's Lullaby

Problem: Weight down a switch.
Only solution: Push the nearby block on it.

Problem: Unlit sconce.
Only solution: Shoot a fire arrow at it.

So... the solutions are all obvious regardless of whether or not there are multiple solutions.

1) Rarely does start and stop there.

2) Yeah, pretty obvious after doing it a bunch of times. The first few times, it took a little bit for me to realize. I didn't think Zelda's Lullaby would have any effect on a random fairy spring that wasn't connected to the royal family.

3) It sounds so simple when you say it. I must have overcomplicated those iceblock puzzles...

4) I doubt you have them tbh. More like:

-Snipe an arrow through a flame that then lights a torch

or

-See two flames, light one with Din's fire, realize that the other is on a time limit, realize you can't make it in time, so place yourself with the other torch, position yourself at an angle with the torch, use Din's fire again to light the torch, and then snipe an arrow through the flame of this torch that hits the other torch and lights it.

Maybe give players multiuse items with many different applications that aren't always so immediately obvious?

...So what they've been doing for years. At least I thought it was satisfying to first learn I could use ice arrows to create platforms, use the grappling hook as a thieving object, or use the ball and chain as a close ranged melee weapon to take out smaller enemies or using it as a barrier of sorts to get enemies to back off.

 

[Castle]

I told you why not.

Well there's not much to do at Lake Hylia either but the game lets you go there for no reason other than to look around, maybe fish a little. There's not much to do in Lon Lon Ranch until a little later but yet the game lets you go there too.

So then why not Death Mountain and Zora's River? Or better yet, just give players stuff to do there anyway! Doesn't have to progress the story, just has to be something for us to discover and play around with. But even still, why not just let player go there since because?

Moreover, why not let players do Jabu Jabu first and then Dodongo's Cavern? I don't remember needing bombs for anything in Jabu. The only thing I needed bombs for is to tear down the arbitrary landslide that blocks entrance into Zora's River for no reason! Find the Spiritual Stones, she says. Fine! Then let me find them. Me. Find. Myself. It kinda obvious where they are and what I gotta do to get em, I just need to show a bit of the ol' intrepid spirit and go for it.

 

[DarkestLink]

Well there's not much to do at Lake Hylia either but the game lets you go there for no reason other than to look around, maybe fish a little. There's not much to do in Lon Lon Ranch until a little later but yet the game lets you go there too.

Personally I think the player should have been steered away from there too, but if I had to guess Nintendo's reasoning, it would be that you can obtain Heart Pieces in both areas as well as the fishing mini game. Also, unlike Death Mountain, Lon Lon Ranch isn't out of the way. You step in, realize quickly that there's nothing here for you (yet) and step out with no real backtracking required. More importantly, there's no puzzles for the player to unfairly get stuck on.

In Death Mountain, you really can't accomplish anything. The Giant Goron requires bombs to deal with, the shortcut to the Kokiri Forest requires bombs. Meeting the Great Fairy requires bombs (and a decent shield preferably). The shop doesn't have anything you can use yet. The Goron Pot heart piece requires bombs. Hell, I think even the gold skulltulas require bombs. And, again, you can't see Darunia. On top of this, you need to go out a ways to reach Goron City. In the end, it's just a big time waster because it's out of the way and you currently can't accomplish anything here.

Compare this to Kakariko. The game doesn't block you from Kakariko even though you can't advance the story as you are. Getting to the gate isn't too far out of the way. You see a closed gate, realize you can't access this area, and leave. The conditions are made clear to you and you don't waste too much time. On top of this, there are several useful sidequests that reward you with a bottle, a way to shift day/night, several heart pieces, and you might even find a Hylian Shield.

So then why not Death Mountain and Zora's River? Or better yet, just give players stuff to do there anyway!

There is stuff to do there...you're just not equipped for it. And when you are equipped, the game let's you move on ahead and do it.

Moreover, why not let players do Jabu Jabu first and then Dodongo's Cavern?

1) To create a cohesive story. Is the story all that important? No. Do the players gain anything from doing this out of order? No. It's a small benefit, but it's better than no benefit.

2) To prevent puzzle breaking. Developers don't need to worry about items gained out of order breaking and ruining previous puzzles. When they design Dungeon #3, they know exactly how the player is equipped. With less time worrying about puzzle breaking, they can spend more time ironing out other bugs, creating more sidequests, creating more dungeons, and developing the story.

3) Scaling. This is Nintendo we're talking about. Before BOTW's release, people were talking about how you would be able challenge yourself and do the later first, get the OP gear first, and so on as long as you were smart enough and skilled enough. Personally, I knew better. When placing players in non-linear setting, Nintendo will scale everything to be as easy as possible. "Rated E" may not mean "for kids", but let's face it, it means Nintendo is going to scale the difficulty so kids can get through easily no matter what choices they make. With this in mind, I'd rather have some moderately easy dungeons that scale in difficulty as I go on vs nine "Level 1 Dungeons" because Nintendo is scared that some kid is going to get their ass handed to them.

 

[Castle]

unlike Death Mountain, Lon Lon Ranch isn't out of the way.

On top of this, you need to go out a ways to reach Goron City.

Getting to the gate isn't too far out of the way.

I don't see how time and distance would be a factor in a game based on exploration and discovery. So long as the world is sufficiently dense with rewards to discover, instead of being a barren wasteland full of worthless junk like BotW is, it doesn't matter how long or far afield the player has to search to find something so long as the payoff is adequate. Heck, more time and effort just makes the payoff all the sweeter, don't it?

if I had to guess Nintendo's reasoning, it would be that you can obtain Heart Pieces in both areas as well as the fishing mini game.

In Death Mountain, you really can't accomplish anything.

In the end, it's just a big time waster because it's out of the way and you currently can't accomplish anything here.

Well then, again, the solution would be to give players something to do. Why not have every region be like Kakariko, with stuff to do before advancing the plot?

There is stuff to do there...you're just not equipped for it. And when you are equipped, the game let's you move on ahead and do it.

Then equip the player for it. Or rather, let players equip themselves for it. Instead of making the player wait until the game is ready for them to play, why not let the player play by their own terms and on their own initiative? Let the player own the experience. It gets the player more involved, more invested. Am I supposed to be a courageous hero on a fantastic and perilous adventure, or am I just another passenger on a scripted Disney Land ride that plays out the same way every time no matter who's on it?

1) To create a cohesive story. Is the story all that important? No. Do the players gain anything from doing this out of order? No. It's a small benefit, but it's better than no benefit.

Would the story change at all if players experienced Jabu Jabu first and then Dodongo's cavern? The answer is no. No matter how important the story is. Ninty isn't so big on story anyway. Even so, there are ways to deliver essential exposition in the necessary order without requiring the player to go through a determined sequence of events. Plenty of games have managed this before. It's easy to design levels as self contained chapters, each with its own scenario independent from the main plot. This is how most Zelda games are structured anyway, with different dramatic conflicts taking place in each different land. These individual scenarios seldom if ever intersect, and never in any significant manner, so it is easy to keep each narrative chapter contained to its own area thus allowing the player to explore freely and not complicate the plot or experience anything out of order. Most essential story beats happen as soon as players have cleared a predetermined number of these chapters anyway. The door of time only opens once Link has cleared the three dungeons. Midna's true nature is only revealed once the player has assembled all the pieces of the fused shadow. These are the essential narrative beats that have to happen in a scripted sequence, but they take place independently from whatever's happening to the Gorons, Zora, and forest folk.

2) To prevent puzzle breaking. Developers don't need to worry about items gained out of order breaking and ruining previous puzzles. When they design Dungeon #3, they know exactly how the player is equipped. With less time worrying about puzzle breaking, they can spend more time ironing out other bugs, creating more sidequests, creating more dungeons, and developing the story.

Developers don't need to worry

This is pretty much what it boils down to. Developers don't want to have to think too hard or put forth much effort to make things more fun and interesting for players. But we can also consider that nintendo gives themselves the better part of a decade to develop main series Zelda installments and possess virtually unlimited resources to do so, and yet they still produce a final product that's half as functional, half as expansive, and not even a third as good looking as games that other developers took half as long and twice as much to release.

And as I've stated previously, there are ways to provide players with the tools to find creative solutions to puzzles without requiring that the game divvy out the only available key to the door one at a time in a predetermined fashion.

3) Scaling. This is Nintendo we're talking about.

Right? I hear ya. I guess the days of nintendo offering a suitable challenge to serious gamers have long passed us by...

 

[mistertc73]

it is not because nowadays making open-world games have really becoming a trend that all games should be open-world games

the other developers that made/make open-world games did that in game series that were already open-world games or at least were that in some sort of OR did that in completely new games of new IP's

a game series that has followed a certain formula for decades should not all of the sudden change that to do what everybody else does, and certainly not when it has always been very very ... succesful for so long

it is not because everyone else is doing something, you have to do that as well, that actually applies for everything

if they really wanted to make an open-world game they should have made that under a new IP and let Zelda games be what they have been for decades