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Did You Like the Dungeon Non-Linearity?

JuicieJ

SHOW ME YA MOVES!
Joined
Jan 10, 2011
Location
On the midnight Spirit Train going anywhere
Skyward Sword featured four dungeons that had at least one moment of non-linear progression: the Skyview Temple, Earth Temple, Sandship, and Sky Keep. The Fire Sanctuary also had a couple moments of backtracking in order to find everything, creating somewhat of a sequence break. This was something that had been missing from dungeons in Zelda for quite some time. My question is did you like the return to some freedom within dungeons? I personally was thrilled by it. Going through dungeons the exact same way every time can get boring in multiple playthroughs. I don't mind some dungeons being linear, as I firmly believe that strikes a balance in style, but it's something I really missed from the dungeons in modern Zelda. I hope Nintendo keeps designing dungeons with non-linearity in them, because it's a really nice feature to have.
 
If the Skyview and Earth Temples were an introduction to Skyward Sword's dungeon non linearity than the Sandship and Sky Keep amplified this to new heights. The problem with prior game like Twilight Princess is creating large expanses with little or nothing to do and few hidden secrets. Skyward Sword avoided this pit hole by featuring smaller, more unique dungeons. Timeshift stones were enthralling on their own especially seeing the Lanayru see sprout to life once more, however, the Sandship propelled the concept to new heights. It was an interesting dungeon aesthetically as well being one of the few more recent ones with a large outside portion.

Sky Keep was the epitome of Skyward Sword's nonlinear design. SS featured many natural progressions of previously explored concepts. Dowsing put the power of locating hidden objects much like the Lens of Truth and Wolf senses in the palm of Link's hand with an item that gained new found importance-the sword. Silent Realms greatly evened out the Tear of Light portions present in Twilight Princess and showed the DS games how to handle stealth-not in a slow meticulous dungeon but roaming fields where the stakes were higher and one wrong move alerted rapidly moving guardians. Branching pathways and a plethora of optional chests had already been explored in a final dungeon previously-TP's Hyrule Castle-but SS built on this tremendously. Altering the layout of the dungeon is the single best and largest puzzle in franchise memory and revisiting the themes of previous dungeons never felt like a cheap, hollow way to tie events together.
 
Joined
Jul 22, 2011
Location
'Murica
I honestly don't care whether a dungeon is linear or non-linear, either type is fine with me. (And I mean, in the end, each dungeon does have a set way of doing things.)

As for the non-linear dungeons is SS I'm trying to think of the examples. I honestly don't remember Skyview being that open-ended, but it surely didn't feel closed-in either... maybe it's because of the big rooms. As for the Earth Temple, yeah, the 2nd/3rd of the dungeon is pretty much "Do whatever you want." which I liked. Lanayru Mining Facility is about as linear as you can get, but that certainly isn't a bad thing considering the complexity of each room. LMF felt like more of a winding hallway of progression as you bring the entire facility back to life rather than a tedious trudge through sand. Ancient Cistern was pretty linear, but finding the entrance to rooms in particular required some backtracking and puzzle solving in the main room. The Sandship is pretty awesome and non-linear. After the initial journey to the bottom of the hull (With awesome atmosphere might I add) the dungeon becomes extremely open after you get the Bow. Deciding which rooms you want to access first for getting to the generator room was always fun. As for the Fire Sanctuary, it's pretty linear, but there's a decent amount of complexity and backtracking (In the good sense) that makes it feel like a connected and coherent dungeon. Lastly, Sky Keep is the most non-linear Zelda dungeon to date for obvious reasons. You only really have to go into the Skyview portion, and after that, the entire dungeon is up to you. (In fact, you can skip the Earth Temple room if you work at it.)

...Dammit JJ you just made me want to play through SS again but I don't have the time. Q_Q
 

DarkestLink

Darkest of all Dark Links
Joined
Oct 28, 2012
Ehhh typically I prefer linearity with the Zelda series, but there are some exceptions.
 

MW7

Joined
Jun 22, 2011
Location
Ohio
I really appreciated it. Wind Waker and Twilight Princess had nonlinear final dungeons, but the rest of the dungeons were fairly linear (the same could be said for Majora's Mask if you consider the Moon a dungeon). I definitely prefer sprinkling of nonlinear elements randomly throughout the game rather than just holding them back for the last little part. Besides Sky Keep was by far my favorite of all of the final dungeons of the 3d games in the series anyway (considering Stone Tower Temple to not be a final dungeon).

To be honest this was one of the first positive things that stuck out to me about this game. I immediately noticed how the water level room in Skyview grants you the freedom to go left or right, and I made a mental note of how the next time I played through the game I'd have to try it the opposite way. I immediately appreciated how the Earth Temple's main room gives you multiple objectives and optional goodies, and I really liked how you don't even have to enter the map room. Lanayru Mining Facility and Ancient Cistern were both pretty set in their progression, but it felt natural and going for linearity was probably a wise decision for those two dungeons. It was especially important for the Ancient Cistern because the designers seemed to be saving the underworld concept to be sprung on the player at the opportune moment.

I freaking fell in love with the Sand Ship though, and I created a save at the beginning of it on my second playthrough so that I could just replay it over and over. I must have played through it six or seven times doing it differently each time, and I'm still not sure if I found the most efficient path. I had a blast trying to figure out how to minimize the amount of timeshifts to beat the dungeon (I got down to five), and my path through the dungeon became increasingly more complicated but faster each time. I actually made a thread of my final path a long time ago (http://zeldadungeon.net/forum/f54/fastest-path-through-sandship-27204.html) in case anyone wants to try it out, but it's definitely not the fastest possible (despite the title of the thread) because I didn't use deathwarping between goddess statues which is the most efficient way to get around the dungeon.

The Fire Sanctuary was a quality dungeon, but obviously it felt like a let down after how much I loved the Sand Ship. However, Nintendo holding Sky Keep as the final dungeon managed to blow me away. I really didn't see such a complicated dungeon concept coming, and I had a fun time figuring out how to navigate this one just like I did with the Sand Ship. I even cut out pieces of paper in order to practice moving the rooms around to figure out how I wanted to go through the dungeon each time.

I really loved this aspect of Skyward Sword, and IMO this is the kind of dungeon balance I'd like to see in every Zelda game. A Link to the Past and Ocarina of Time each had a nice balance of linear and nonlinear dungeons, but between Ocarina and Skyward Sword much of this balance was left behind. I'm glad Skyward Sword brought it back. Also playing through the Sand Ship reminded me of the Water Temple of Ocarina of Time because in the Water Temple my goal was to limit the number of times I changed the water level and in the Sand Ship my goal was to limit the number of times I hit the timeshift stone. I love these global puzzle mechanics which seem to fit well within a nonlinear structure and hope to see more dungeons like these in the future.
 

Moonstone

embrace the brand new day
Joined
Oct 23, 2012
It's been awhile since I've played Skyward Sword, but I can honestly say that it had the best dungeons I've seen in a long time. In fact, I've been playing through Twilight Princess lately, and I was surprised how, in comparison to Skyward Sword, the dungeons are pretty bland and forgettable. And with Wind Waker- the dungeons were so linear, that I can't possibly forget how to make my way through them.
 

GirlWithAFairy

Man... the ****???
Joined
Oct 25, 2012
Location
F***ing LaLa Land!!!
I like non linear because I can do what I want or if Im having a hard time I can say "This is my game, I own this game, F*** this level!" and move on to something different. I like having a little structure, you know like some parts of the level having to go in a certain order but generally I like to just kind of go my own way and like JJ said, doing it the same way again gets boring so trying something completely different can be nice and give a bit of a challenge.
 

DarkestLink

Darkest of all Dark Links
Joined
Oct 28, 2012
Now all that needs to happen is for us to be able to choose dungeons themselves with non-linearity again.

I disagree, this would be very bad for two reasons.

1) It ruins the story.

2) Items. If dungeon's A, B, and C have Grappling Hook, Boomerang/Deku Leaf, and Bow, and Nintendo let us go to them in any order, they have to keep in mind that the player may not have the bow or boomerang and limit the puzzles in Dungeon C to not include these items.
 
Joined
Jul 22, 2011
Location
'Murica
I disagree, this would be very bad for two reasons.

1) It ruins the story.

2) Items. If dungeon's A, B, and C have Grappling Hook, Boomerang/Deku Leaf, and Bow, and Nintendo let us go to them in any order, they have to keep in mind that the player may not have the bow or boomerang and limit the puzzles in Dungeon C to not include these items.

Well that's the million dollar question, isn't it? How does Nintendo allow us to pick which dungeons to go to without getting in the way of the story? Honestly there isn't any easy way around it.

The only dungeons that seem interchangeable in SS are the Ancient Cistern and Sandship due to Ghirahim's minor influences in Lake Floria (As well as his appearance in the Cistern) and his complete absence from the Lanayru Sand Sea section of the game. Story-wise, nothing incredibly significant happens during those parts, but as you've stated, item usage would be severely limited. Likewise, after the amount of use SS items got, it would be disappointing to go back to the "Use this item for one dungeon" some other Zelda games have used.

In the end, if we want a coherent story, the dungeons are required to be linear. (Which I don't mind, but some people are less forgiving.)
 

DarkestLink

Darkest of all Dark Links
Joined
Oct 28, 2012
There's also the issue of assigning difficulty. Nintendo makes the first dungeon the easiest and that's understandable. By the time the third dungeon comes around, they will begin to make it more challenging because you've had experience.

If the player can choose between doing the first dungeon and the third dungeon first, Nintendo has to make a choice.

A) Make them all as easy as first dungeons?

:cool: Make them all as hard as third dungeons?

C) Find middle ground and make them as hard as second dungeons?

Knowing Nintendo, the chances of B happening are low. So it'll probably be A or C. Which means you could potentially lose out on some difficulty level in the game.
 

Kylo Ken

I will finish what Spyro started
Joined
Aug 10, 2011
Location
Ohio
Wasn't that bad. But the dungeons seemed smaller. I like the linear dungeons more.
 
There's also the issue of assigning difficulty. Nintendo makes the first dungeon the easiest and that's understandable. By the time the third dungeon comes around, they will begin to make it more challenging because you've had experience.

If the player can choose between doing the first dungeon and the third dungeon first, Nintendo has to make a choice.

A) Make them all as easy as first dungeons?

:cool: Make them all as hard as third dungeons?

C) Find middle ground and make them as hard as second dungeons?

Knowing Nintendo, the chances of B happening are low. So it'll probably be A or C. Which means you could potentially lose out on some difficulty level in the game.

D) Make the first 3 or so dungeons have to be in order, then say make the last 5 able to be done in nay order.
 

JuicieJ

SHOW ME YA MOVES!
Joined
Jan 10, 2011
Location
On the midnight Spirit Train going anywhere
1) It ruins the story.

No it doesn't. A Link to the Past and Ocarina of Time both do this and their stories aren't ruined in the slightest.

2) Items. If dungeon's A, B, and C have Grappling Hook, Boomerang/Deku Leaf, and Bow, and Nintendo let us go to them in any order, they have to keep in mind that the player may not have the bow or boomerang and limit the puzzles in Dungeon C to not include these items.

Dungeons can be made to not be based on specific items. Again A Link to the Past and Ocarina of Time had this. There could also be different paths made for different items to create even more non-linearity within the dungeons.
 

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