Spoiler Demise, Ganondorf, calamity, and Null

[Commander_Has]

so because she's only half god, the whole Devine beings can't use it wouldn't apply?

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

Well claiming if she uses the power if the gods who created everything as against laws kinds doesn’t fit if she is only a half god or angel in level of gods; it would be like saying taking up Thor’s Hammer by Oiden a god vs Thor who is only a half deity; the laws are different for fully divine and only half divine.

You're saying here that Hylia could've used the Triforce because she isn't a full god. This only makes her sacrifice to be a mortal in order to use it more pointless than any other argument that's been presented so far.

 

[Commander_Has]

what makes it pointless?

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

two things. first, what do you see hylia's light as? the second question is, what is the tie between Amaterasu and Hylia, besides they were both once goddesses. What was the reason Amaterasu became a human?

I'm not even entirely sure what her light is, but my best educated guess would be it has something to do with the light to repel evil. The Master Sword is her creation afterall.

The tie is Japan created a dynasty that claimed to be descended from gods, similar to the Royal Family being able to claim they are descended from Hylia.

what makes it pointless?

It's pointless by following the argument to it's logical end. If Hylia isn't a full god, and this allows her to be able to use the Triforce, what was the point of her sacrifice to be a mortal? I don't see there being one.

 

[Commander_Has]

"The tie is Japan created a dynasty that claimed to be descended from gods, similar to the Royal Family being able to claim they are descended from Hylia."

as a history buff, this pains me. This was not a legend. literally every ancient dynasty claimed to come from a god or goddess. It was a method of securing one's throne from opposition. Thus, it has no relevance to this argument.

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"It's pointless by following the argument to it's logical end. If Hylia isn't a full god, and this allows her to be able to use the Triforce, what was the point of her sacrifice to be a mortal? I don't see there being one."

If she, as the goddess of light (moral right), how much more is that bar lowered for mortal man. she upholds morals, so she has to obey the rule of divinity.

 

[Ryuu Kage Desu]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but your entire argument is that Hylia could've used the Triforce as a god, but because there's only a rule in place for gods not to use it, she plays so by the book that she couldn't break that rule, which is why she gave up her divinity so she could use it as a mortal, all to not break the rule? If I'm incorrect about this notion let me know.

While I would swap out "only a rule" with "an important rule," I would say that this is accurate. Where your characterization of my position, in this case, falters, is your description of the emergency responder refusing to do their job as being descriptive of my standpoint. Or, even that the officer abusing their power is descriptive of my point. To continue using those as descriptions for my stance is as you described "'something that mischaracterizes someone's argument' often by 'refuting an argument that is different from the one actually under discussion, while not recognizing or acknowledging the distinction'," as I had clarified that:

In the cop analogy, she [Hylia] becomes the cop that pulls over the other speeding officer.

I get that in your perspective, she is more like a first responder that is granted an exemption from the normal mode of operation, due to extenuating circumstances. And, that's a fine interpretation. She is shown to still be a full fledged god later in the series, after all. I'm not arguing that Hylia being granted an exemption, and becoming mortal was the way it had to be done, due to the programing of the Triforce is wrong. I am saying that it adds complications (which may be part of the point), and that there is another valid way to look at the situation.

If we want to get really specific we have closely look at the language used, which says: "For while the supreme power of the
Triforce was created by gods, all of its
power can never be wielded by one."

Honestly, the same can be said for nuclear arsenals and first world countries. Just swap Triforce for he weapons, and gods for countries. Which is probably the better analogy at this point.

It's piointless by following the argument to it's logical end. If Hylia isn't a full god, and this allows her to be able to use the Triforce, what was the point of her sacrifice to be a mortal? I don't see there being one.

if it's an ethical issue, it still fits. Though, if I were to classify any one as a demigod, I would go with the classical Greco-Roman perspective. This would allow for lesser and greater gods, while also making Zelda and possibly Ganon demigods. It still separates Hylia form the creator gods.

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If there is any other interpretation to extract based on all evidence that we have, I suppose it would lay in the dependent clause of the quote: "all of it's power can never be wielded by one."

Specifically "all of it's power" is important here, because it could imply that anytime a god tries to use it, the Triforce will split and they'll only get one piece, and even if they manage to reunited the others, it'll just split again. This might be why the Triforce split when Null tried to use it.

This is a fascinating rout to explore. I would want to also look more into the nature of the echoes, then. Where does the echo end, and Null begin? While Null shows more direct control over some echoes, many that it and Zelda create show full autonomy. The echoes that make up the rebuilt Hyrule also seem to function as the original. Then there is the Great Deku Tree being tricked by an echo.

It could be that the echo of Zelda didn't trigger the God Clause (be it programing or law). Then when Null transferred the one piece to itself, the Triforce had already been broken apart.

Or, it could be that the connection to Null present enough to cause the break, not because of any imbalance, but the God Clause had been activated.

I could possibly agree with your notion that Null changed, but I think the change happened basically when the game started. The Triforce splitting after Null touched it indicates an unbalanced heart, which goes against what Null should be in theory. Farore tells Link that Null "devoured life indiscriminately" before they sealed him with the creation of the world, at the time he was balanced. He probably began getting corrupted from being neutral after he started swallowing people into the rifts and gaining their knowledge, and when he began to seek the Triforce which made him lustful of power.

This could also be a third direction. It could be that the Triforce strips the power from someone too powerful that attempts to use it, making it easier to defeat such an entity as Null.

Also, as I think more about the story presented to us, by the Golden Goddesses, I don't think Null was neutral, even in the beginning. The Void's nature was to birth creation. Without Null, creation would have naturally developed from the Void. Null was stopping this from happening, breaking the natural order, leading the Goddesses to see Null as the problem. If Null was truly neutral and balanced, it could have been reasoned with.

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This is why equating Zelda to richly crafted stories like Tolkien's books, or the The Elder Scrolls series (which you and others have done in this thread a few times) can never be relied upon. If storytelling and lore was more of a focus for Zelda I wouldn't say this, but at the time writing the Zelda series doesn't focus on creating a rich mythos, and there's no indication it ever will shift to such a focus.

A truly rich, and complete, mythos is easier to self refrence. Being that there are gaps, laden with symbolysim, we are better served by examining the symbolysim.

 

[Daku Rinku]

so because she's only half god, the whole Devine beings can't use it wouldn't apply?

I am saying the law may effect her differently. For instance if you are a lesser god, half good, or lower tier being, the law that effects gods may be marginally effective on you or more so. I mean we are speculating.

 

[Commander_Has]

I suppose I see what you are saying. lesser gods do get quite weird. I suppose it could work.

 

[Daku Rinku]

I suppose I see what you are saying. lesser gods do get quite weird. I suppose it could work.

Es[ecially if they are half mortal, Hylia and Zelda are liked no? Zelda is a mortal.

 

[Commander_Has]

zelda is a mortal who reincarnates. hylia is a lesser godess, Demise is a greator demon. then you get into demigods, children of the gods, lesser demons. And then there's devine objects, wish graning objects, magic objects. to create power ranks and rules is quite difficult.

 

[Daku Rinku]

zelda is a mortal who reincarnates. hylia is a lesser godess, Demise is a greator demon. then you get into demigods, children of the gods, lesser demons. And then there's devine objects, wish graning objects, magic objects. to create power ranks and rules is quite difficult.

But Hylia became mortal becoming the First Zelda. And so she is now a mortal, which means you have to decide what law applies, per-incarnate she is a lesser god, but incarnate she is a mortal.

 

[Commander_Has]

I would say the current form would be what the law judges her by. also semi ironic, Zelda never actually used the triforce in SS. so her physical form was kinda pointless. well, I guess she would have died if she had stayed a goddess, due to her wounds.

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

as a history buff, this pains me. This was not a legend. literally every ancient dynasty claimed to come from a god or goddess. It was a method of securing one's throne from opposition. Thus, it has no relevance to this argument.

It's fine to dismiss Amaterasu as having similarties to Hylia if you prefer, but keep in mind a lot of the Zelda series is steeped in Shinto influences.

"It's pointless by following the argument to it's logical end. If Hylia isn't a full god, and this allows her to be able to use the Triforce, what was the point of her sacrifice to be a mortal? I don't see there being one."

If she, as the goddess of light (moral right), how much more is that bar lowered for mortal man. she upholds morals, so she has to obey the rule of divinity.

Daku is saying the rules of divinity don't apply to Hylia if she is a lesser god, he is lowering the bar for her basically. So if you take issue with that, you'll have to debate him over it.

I get that in your perspective, she is more like a first responder that is granted an exemption from the normal mode of operation, due to extenuating circumstances. And, that's a fine interpretation. She is shown to still be a full fledged god later in the series, after all. I'm not arguing that Hylia being granted an exemption, and becoming mortal was the way it had to be done, due to the programing of the Triforce is wrong. I am saying that it adds complications (which may be part of the point), and that there is another valid way to look at the situation.

I missed your points in a later post about claiming that in your analogy Hylia is supposed to be the cop responding to the cop abusing power. That's not the impression I got from your analogy when you first laid it out at all:

A more accurate depiction is an officer speeding because they just want to get to their location faster. It is illegal, really does happen all the time, and some officers actually get called out on it because it's not an emergency, despite most infractions being ignored.

You didn't make any mention of Hylia being the officer stopping the speeding officer here. There's nothing indicating that was your intention with the analogy originally. So hopefully you see why I thought you meant Hylia was the officer abusing the power for the heck of it. Also you said later on:

If the limitation was designed in, Hylia becomes like the speeding cop who never got caught; she found a loophole in the design, and used it... constantly.

I don't understand how you arrived to such a conclusion, it looks like you were saying here that Hylia using the Triforce as a god is an abuse of power, you liken her to the speeding cop that was doing it just for fun here as well. I read this initially as dismissive of the scenario Hylia was in, and I still read it that way even now.

You already know I view her situation there as an emergency, and I think if she could've used the Triforce without needing to cast away her divinity, she would be granted an exemption in doing so, like first responders are granted it in emergencies. You also agreed this is a valid interpretation anyway in your latest post.

If it's that the gods can't be allowed access, despite the Triforce having the ability to work for them, then Hylia sacrificing her divinity before making use of the Triforce becomes her operating within the law. In the cop analogy, she becomes the cop that pulls over the other speeding officer.

Getting to this point though, in the full context it looks like you were saying she should be commended for abiding by the law, that if she would've used the Triforce as a god it's her abusing power, which again, misrepresents Hylia scenario, in my eyes.

If you were hoping your analogy would come off a different way, it doesn't.

To me it seemed like you were simplifying things down like so:

Hylia using the Triforce as a god if she could = bad even under her circumstance

Hylia not using it as a god, becoming a mortal instead to possibly one day use it = the only right option regardless of anything else

If what I deduced is a misrepresentation, then I was mistaken, but I want you to know this was genuinely the only way your posts read to me.

Anyway, the whole time I've been arguing it isn't so black and white.

I'm not arguing that Hylia being granted an exemption, and becoming mortal was the way it had to be done, due to the programing of the Triforce is wrong. I am saying that it adds complications (which may be part of the point), and that there is another valid way to look at the situation.

How does the Triforce simply not functioning for gods add complications? I know you stated you think it's too specific of a limitation, and also you fear it would be used as too harsh a metric by people to decide if someone is a god or not. I don't really have those same concerns, so you'd need to list some other things to sway me that it's bad for the Triforce to function that way.

Gods being able to use the Triforce as deities if they could is what I think adds complications (in universe), not the inverse. I think if gods could use the Triforce without there being consequence it would cause catastrophic power grapples among deities where mortals would be innocent casualties in the wake of wars they are completely powerless to do anything about. "Absolute power corrupts absolutely" and all. I think making it so that gods can't use it eliminates that temptation.

Honestly, the same can be said for nuclear arsenals and first world countries. Just swap Triforce for he weapons, and gods for countries. Which is probably the better analogy at this point.

I figured analogies like these with extreme stakes would enter in eventually, but I don't know if they'd even be helpful at this point when the more tame analogies in comparison have caused such an issue, lol.

if it's an ethical issue, it still fits. Though, if I were to classify any one as a demigod, I would go with the classical Greco-Roman perspective. This would allow for lesser and greater gods, while also making Zelda and possibly Ganon demigods. It still separates Hylia form the creator gods.

I don't get the impression Daku was discussing ethics, but if you want to dig in more with that you'd have to take him up on it to figure out his intention for his argument.

I'm fine with discussing characters, their possible power classifications, and their relation in context of each other since that's really the whole point of the thread regarding Null, Demise, and Ganon anyway. I agree with you that there are greater and lesser gods. I think there are tiers for lesser gods though where someone like Hylia is the highest tier, but elemental gods like Zephos and Cyclos from Wind Waker would be the lower tier.

This is a fascinating rout to explore. I would want to also look more into the nature of the echoes, then. Where does the echo end, and Null begin? While Null shows more direct control over some echoes, many that it and Zelda create show full autonomy. The echoes that make up the rebuilt Hyrule also seem to function as the original. Then there is the Great Deku Tree being tricked by an echo.

Well this goes into what I was saying way earlier in the thread where I was thinking Null bringing people into the rifts and creating echoes of them started to change his personality. I think he did start to lose himself a bit.

It could be that the echo of Zelda didn't trigger the God Clause (be it programing or law). Then when Null transferred the one piece to itself, the Triforce had already been broken apart.

I also could see his manipulation of Zelda as an Echo possibly being a loophole around the god clause. I still think ultimately it's his heart the Triforce would be evaluating though, and it deemed him unbalanced in this circumstance.

Or, it could be that the connection to Null present enough to cause the break, not because of any imbalance, but the God Clause had been activated.

Also valid, and could be what the god clause really is, which would be why Hylia was better off not triggering it while she was a deity still. If the Triforce would've been split at that time I imagine she'd get the piece of wisdom, Demise would get power and that would likely be enough for him to break his seal which would be game over basically. I guess courage would go to Impa. Either way, I don't think Hylia and Impa would manage to win against a Triforce of Power buffed up Demise, even with the other pieces they have. This is a total hypothetical of what could've happened though.

Also, as I think more about the story presented to us, by the Golden Goddesses, I don't think Null was neutral, even in the beginning. The Void's nature was to birth creation. Without Null, creation would have naturally developed from the Void. Null was stopping this from happening, breaking the natural order, leading the Goddesses to see Null as the problem. If Null was truly neutral and balanced, it could have been reasoned with.

The reason I thought he could be neutral was that he was described as devouring life indiscrimentely, which someone wouldn't do if they had a bias. I just feel like it's a really specific thing for the devs to insert. I don't know if the gods viewing Null as a problem puts much weight against him being neutral because the gods and Null exist as polar opposites which make negotiation impossible anyway. The gods want to cultivate creation, whereas Null wants to preserve the void which is the absence of creation. There really isn't any middleground that they could come to. Also, would you agree if we view Null as always not being neutral, we have to say the gods weren't either?

 

[Daku Rinku]

Its not me lowering the bar @Spiritual Mask Salesman , its that Hylia is not like the other gods, she becomes a mortal and first Zelda, which makes her.. definitely unique and the laws of the gods govern the divine and the mortals differently, i.e. mortals die. So her shifting from some level of deification to mortal makes her difficult to judge by the laws of the gods. I can see why frankly Nintendo abandoned this aspect, and went with Rauru and Sonia and the Zonia aspect instead to explain the god like powers in the royal line, specifically the Zeldas.

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

Its not me lowering the bar @Spiritual Mask Salesman , its that Hylia is not like the other gods, she becomes a mortal and first Zelda, which makes her.. definitely unique and the laws of the gods govern the divine and the mortals differently, i.e. mortals die. So her shifting from some level of deification to mortal makes her difficult to judge by the laws of the gods. I can see why frankly Nintendo abandoned this aspect, and went with Rauru and Sonia and the Zonia aspect instead to explain the god like powers in the royal line, specifically the Zeldas.

I thought you were saying earlier that Hylia is a lesser god and that means laws of greater gods don't apply to her?

I think we all agree Hylia reborn as Zelda doesn't have to face a god clause the Triforce has, because Zelda is a mortal.